It's because of your kid UPDATE pg 6, 14

[greencat]

Every time Mary and Mark make the suggestion to move the venue to their place - "Oh, no, we wouldn't want to disturb the baby.  You know last time we couldn't talk above a whisper or have adult conversations, and we don't really all fit in your place anyway."  Follow that up with continuations of the original movie/bowling/clubbing plans.

[Brockwest]

New parents sometimes feel the are the first people in the world to ever have had a child and get very demanding about noise/germs/everything.  I've seen new parents demand you wash up before you hold the child.  It's amusing by the fourth child, they'll let just about anybody hold the child.
You can't change a new parent's way's about their child, and it's not advisable to even try.
The simplest solution here is to greet their complaints about being left out with silence, then offer the bean dip.  If they offer their home, don't attend.  I would imagine others would not attend either.
Make your normal plans to go whereever you want. 
I remember as a boy my Mom advised me not to talk about race/religion/politics as you aren't going to change someone's mind, and might make them angry. I'll change that to race/religions/politics/how their are raising their child.

[still in va]

New parents sometimes feel the are the first people in the world to ever have had a child and get very demanding about noise/germs/everything.  I've seen new parents demand you wash up before you hold the child.  It's amusing by the fourth child, they'll let just about anybody hold the child.
You can't change a new parent's way's about their child, and it's not advisable to even try.
The simplest solution here is to greet their complaints about being left out with silence, then offer the bean dip.  If they offer their home, don't attend.  I would imagine others would not attend either.
Make your normal plans to go whereever you want. 
I remember as a boy my Mom advised me not to talk about race/religion/politics as you aren't going to change someone's mind, and might make them angry. I'll change that to race/religions/politics/how their are raising their child.

i would agree with everything you said, especially the bolded.

but these aren't new parents (and the term "new parent" being what applies to your post).  this child is nearly 18 months old.  how long should this group be expected to sit an whisper so Mary and Mark can be accommodated? 

i think Mary and Mark need to understand that it's not all about what they want the group to do.  frankly, if i was a member of that group, i would be declining every invitation to Mary and Mark's.  i would have been accommodating for the first few months.  buy there comes a time when accommodating becomes enabling. if it were me, that time would have come.

[GrammarNerd]

Has anyone seen that Buffalo Wild Wings commercial about watching football?  Every time I see it, I think of this thread.  There's a scene where 2 couples are sitting on a couch watching a football game.  One couple is each holding a baby.  They're shushing the other couple.  A good play happens and the childless couple cheers.  The babies start crying.  Then, two toddlers in front of the TV start screaming.  The childless couple gets dirty looks from the other couple.  Then the childless couple goes to BWW, where they can enjoy the game and cheer to their hearts' content.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dn_1k9_4Nj8

Perhaps if Mark and Mary continue to press people to come to their house and don't take other hints, you should send this commercial to them and say, 'We're trying to be polite about this, but really, with restrictions about noise and language when we come to your house, we feel like the couple on the left in this commercial.  The commercial is meant to be humorous, but this is pretty much how we feel.  We understand that Junior is your priority, but please understand that if we plan an evening out, relaxing and having fun is our priority, and having to stay quiet and constantly watch what we say does not really fit in well with that.  We love your company and Junior is a great kid, but it just doesn't work for us to have get-togethers at your house.'

And again, I say this as more of a last resort if they just don't get it.

[Sharnita]

Has anyone seen that Buffalo Wild Wings commercial about watching football?  Every time I see it, I think of this thread.  There's a scene where 2 couples are sitting on a couch watching a football game.  One couple is each holding a baby.  They're shushing the other couple.  A good play happens and the childless couple cheers.  The babies start crying.  Then, two toddlers in front of the TV start screaming.  The childless couple gets dirty looks from the other couple.  Then the childless couple goes to BWW, where they can enjoy the game and cheer to their hearts' content.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dn_1k9_4Nj8

Perhaps if Mark and Mary continue to press people to come to their house and don't take other hints, you should send this commercial to them and say, 'We're trying to be polite about this, but really, with restrictions about noise and language when we come to your house, we feel like the couple on the left in this commercial.  The commercial is meant to be humorous, but this is pretty much how we feel.  We understand that Junior is your priority, but please understand that if we plan an evening out, relaxing and having fun is our priority, and having to stay quiet and constantly watch what we say does not really fit in well with that.  We love your company and Junior is a great kid, but it just doesn't work for us to have get-togethers at your house.'

And again, I say this as more of a last resort if they just don't get it.

Actually, that commercial makes me sympathetic for both couples.  I would certainly say that football is not the event for them to socialize over but if the couple with children said they were never willing to come over to participate in a some quieter socializing I would think they didn't value the friendship tremendously.

[Ceallach]

I've told this story before on eHell, but it's very relevant here.  When the first of DH's friends had a child, it was a huge shock - to him.   He couldn't believe how much his friends changed.   Suddenly they couldn't go anywhere or do anything.  Visits to their house revolved all around the baby.   Their entire life, personality, and topics of conversation were all baby focused.   It really affected him.    Fortunately, a year later we moved away near to a relative of mine who DH made good friends with.  They were just starting their family too, and had their first child shortly after we arrived.  Yes, some things changed - as loving parents obviously caring for their child becomes a priority.  But they still socialised, they still had interesting conversations, their house was still a welcoming, fun place to be at.   (In fact, if anything they become MORE social at home because that way they had easy access to baby food and baby's bed etc so could slip off and sort baby out without disrupting the party).   Both sets of parents are truly wonderful people, and are really great parents.   The difference is that one set sacrificed their entire identity to become parents and gave up their own lives, while the others saw it as just another wonderful part of who they are and adapted accordingly.   It was this second modelling of parenthood that encouraged DH - it's the type of Dad he wants to be, one who is a super Dad but still has his hobbies, friends, and life. 

I think the problem is that new parents will always think that *their* way of doing things is the right way.  It's hard for any feedback to come across as anything but criticism.   I do think it's SS of Mary to be complaining so vocally about this - if people weren't accepting my invitations I'd realise pretty quickly it was something wrong with the way I was hosting!!  It's sad that she's just driving people away instead.  But I don't think I'd address it with her too directly as there's not really a nice way to say that you don't enjoy going to their house.  All I'd do would be to encourage her to come out more.  After all, she's invited.  She's the one choosing not to go out and socialise.  Life is choices!

[still in va]

I've told this story before on eHell, but it's very relevant here.  When the first of DH's friends had a child, it was a huge shock - to him.   He couldn't believe how much his friends changed.   Suddenly they couldn't go anywhere or do anything.  Visits to their house revolved all around the baby.   Their entire life, personality, and topics of conversation were all baby focused.   It really affected him.    Fortunately, a year later we moved away near to a relative of mine who DH made good friends with.  They were just starting their family too, and had their first child shortly after we arrived.  Yes, some things changed - as loving parents obviously caring for their child becomes a priority.  But they still socialised, they still had interesting conversations, their house was still a welcoming, fun place to be at.   (In fact, if anything they become MORE social at home because that way they had easy access to baby food and baby's bed etc so could slip off and sort baby out without disrupting the party).   Both sets of parents are truly wonderful people, and are really great parents.   The difference is that one set sacrificed their entire identity to become parents and gave up their own lives, while the others saw it as just another wonderful part of who they are and adapted accordingly.   It was this second modelling of parenthood that encouraged DH - it's the type of Dad he wants to be, one who is a super Dad but still has his hobbies, friends, and life. 

I think the problem is that new parents will always think that *their* way of doing things is the right way.  It's hard for any feedback to come across as anything but criticism.   I do think it's SS of Mary to be complaining so vocally about this - if people weren't accepting my invitations I'd realise pretty quickly it was something wrong with the way I was hosting!!  It's sad that she's just driving people away instead.  But I don't think I'd address it with her too directly as there's not really a nice way to say that you don't enjoy going to their house.  All I'd do would be to encourage her to come out more.  After all, she's invited.  She's the one choosing not to go out and socialise.  Life is choices!

and again i would make the point that i made in my reply, #62.  Mark and Mary are not "new" parents.  their child is nearly 18 months old. 

i would be hard pressed to not ask Mary how old her child is going to be before she accepts that others are allowed to socialize in the way they prefer, and not all pile into Mary's house.  when the child goes to kindergarten?  when the child can drive himself and is taking himself to parties somewhere else?

[Ceallach]

I've told this story before on eHell, but it's very relevant here.  When the first of DH's friends had a child, it was a huge shock - to him.   He couldn't believe how much his friends changed.   Suddenly they couldn't go anywhere or do anything.  Visits to their house revolved all around the baby.   Their entire life, personality, and topics of conversation were all baby focused.   It really affected him.    Fortunately, a year later we moved away near to a relative of mine who DH made good friends with.  They were just starting their family too, and had their first child shortly after we arrived.  Yes, some things changed - as loving parents obviously caring for their child becomes a priority.  But they still socialised, they still had interesting conversations, their house was still a welcoming, fun place to be at.   (In fact, if anything they become MORE social at home because that way they had easy access to baby food and baby's bed etc so could slip off and sort baby out without disrupting the party).   Both sets of parents are truly wonderful people, and are really great parents.   The difference is that one set sacrificed their entire identity to become parents and gave up their own lives, while the others saw it as just another wonderful part of who they are and adapted accordingly.   It was this second modelling of parenthood that encouraged DH - it's the type of Dad he wants to be, one who is a super Dad but still has his hobbies, friends, and life. 

I think the problem is that new parents will always think that *their* way of doing things is the right way.  It's hard for any feedback to come across as anything but criticism.   I do think it's SS of Mary to be complaining so vocally about this - if people weren't accepting my invitations I'd realise pretty quickly it was something wrong with the way I was hosting!!  It's sad that she's just driving people away instead.  But I don't think I'd address it with her too directly as there's not really a nice way to say that you don't enjoy going to their house.  All I'd do would be to encourage her to come out more.  After all, she's invited.  She's the one choosing not to go out and socialise.  Life is choices!

and again i would make the point that i made in my reply, #62.  Mark and Mary are not "new" parents.  their child is nearly 18 months old. 

i would be hard pressed to not ask Mary how old her child is going to be before she accepts that others are allowed to socialize in the way they prefer, and not all pile into Mary's house.  when the child goes to kindergarten?  when the child can drive himself and is taking himself to parties somewhere else?

Sorry, let me rephrase that - I actually meant "first time parents", not "new parents".

I do agree with you, but at the same time it really isn't anybody's business how she chooses to parent.  It is rude of her to complain to her friends at length about her lack of socialisation  - seeing she is declining invitations because of her different priorities - but it is still her right to set those priorities.   I personally disagree with the way she is choosing to parent and some of her decisions, but that is her right.    I don't think there's much her friends can say to her that will change that.   She has to learn to "cut the cord" a bit in her own time. Some people learn it straight away, others learn the hard way with their first kid and take forever to get back to any type of normality in their lives.    Hopefully she will finally get to the point where she realises that she needs to compromise if she wants to socialise more.  For her own wellbeing as well as her family and friends.

[nolechica]

Any updates?

[O'Dell]

From Devix:  Whenever anyone tells a dirty joke or a story that has us giggle they'll complain that they don't want junior to hear things like that as it could affect his psyche and they don't want him learning naughty words.

The reason we all gravitated together as friends is because we're all loud, boisterous people who share the same weird sense of humor.  No one else in the group has shown any displeasure about the way we act except for Mark and Mary.  They're the ones who have changed from the group dynamic and I don't feel as if I have to alter my personality just because they have.

My apologies, Devix, for cobbling together a couple of quotes from your posts, but these 2 stuck out of to me. I hope I haven't taken them out of context.

I've been watching this thread because a couple that we are good friends with had a baby recently. We've bonded over many a drink and dirty joke. I've witnessed a few people who, like your friends, seem to go off the deep end when they have kids and was concerned that my friends might do the same. I needn't have worried. They didn't change and baby is now just another part of their normal lives. In fact I met their baby for the first time at a bar! (Dad's a musician and mom and baby came to watch him. )

I think that in a case like yours, I might approach the problem from the angle that they have changed and I'm curious and even concerned. Stepping back from the more immediate situation of socializing with them and looking at their behavior, I think questioning it or even expressing concern would be fine.

I'd start with questions about how they were brought up. Didn't their parents drink, swear and tell dirty jokes? Where did they learn to do that so that they fit in with your crowd? Where had they gotten the idea that it got into their kids psyche and caused problems? Had what they'd heard caused problems for them? Is there a point when the kid's psyche is no longer so fragile? What's behind this change? Then I'd see where that led. I would never lecture them or suggest that their parenting is bad, but I might express concern about their emotional and psychological well-being.

If nothing worked, I'd start socializing with them outside the group events. I'd still invite them to events, but I'd decline to go to their apartment until things change. Because the dynamics of the friendship are bound to change, for better or worse, as the kid ages. You can reassess at a later time.

Anyway, I feel for you and wish you luck. Your situation makes be feel like I've dodged a bullet. 

[CakeEater]

From Devix:  Whenever anyone tells a dirty joke or a story that has us giggle they'll complain that they don't want junior to hear things like that as it could affect his psyche and they don't want him learning naughty words.

The reason we all gravitated together as friends is because we're all loud, boisterous people who share the same weird sense of humor.  No one else in the group has shown any displeasure about the way we act except for Mark and Mary.  They're the ones who have changed from the group dynamic and I don't feel as if I have to alter my personality just because they have.

My apologies, Devix, for cobbling together a couple of quotes from your posts, but these 2 stuck out of to me. I hope I haven't taken them out of context.

I've been watching this thread because a couple that we are good friends with had a baby recently. We've bonded over many a drink and dirty joke. I've witnessed a few people who, like your friends, seem to go off the deep end when they have kids and was concerned that my friends might do the same. I needn't have worried. They didn't change and baby is now just another part of their normal lives. In fact I met their baby for the first time at a bar! (Dad's a musician and mom and baby came to watch him. )
I think that in a case like yours, I might approach the problem from the angle that they have changed and I'm curious and even concerned. Stepping back from the more immediate situation of socializing with them and looking at their behavior, I think questioning it or even expressing concern would be fine.

I'd start with questions about how they were brought up. Didn't their parents drink, swear and tell dirty jokes? Where did they learn to do that so that they fit in with your crowd? Where had they gotten the idea that it got into their kids psyche and caused problems? Had what they'd heard caused problems for them? Is there a point when the kid's psyche is no longer so fragile? What's behind this change? Then I'd see where that led. I would never lecture them or suggest that their parenting is bad, but I might express concern about their emotional and psychological well-being.

If nothing worked, I'd start socializing with them outside the group events. I'd still invite them to events, but I'd decline to go to their apartment until things change. Because the dynamics of the friendship are bound to change, for better or worse, as the kid ages. You can reassess at a later time.

Anyway, I feel for you and wish you luck. Your situation makes be feel like I've dodged a bullet. 

Regarding the two bolded sections. Many people learn to drink, swear and tell dirty jokes from their peers later in life and hide these abilities from their parents pretty well.  It's not an unusual stance for parents to try to cut out their own swearing around their young kids. Even if they feel fine with adults swearing, they may feel like a stream of Fs coming out of a toddler's mouth is a little off.

It's great that your friends have been so able to maintain their regular social lives. However, newborns are pretty portable, and can sleep thrugh noise when they need to. It could be that in a year's time, your friends with an 18month-old might find having him/her running around in the bar to be a bit more difficult to deal with. And when he/she starts talking at the same time, they mightn't want jnr exposed to a lot of swearing either. It depends on the child, as well, of course and how much they need routine.

[Sharnita]

I think expressing concern for their psychological well-being because they have decided they don't get as much of a kick out of rowdy behavior, dirty jokes and blue language as they used to would be strange to say the least. While that is not a universal experience it is pretty darn common for people in their twenties, whether or not they have had children.  The idea that it should cause concern over somebody's psychological well-being is a stretch so far that you are going to pull a muscle.

[still in va]

From Devix:  Whenever anyone tells a dirty joke or a story that has us giggle they'll complain that they don't want junior to hear things like that as it could affect his psyche and they don't want him learning naughty words.

The reason we all gravitated together as friends is because we're all loud, boisterous people who share the same weird sense of humor.  No one else in the group has shown any displeasure about the way we act except for Mark and Mary.  They're the ones who have changed from the group dynamic and I don't feel as if I have to alter my personality just because they have.

My apologies, Devix, for cobbling together a couple of quotes from your posts, but these 2 stuck out of to me. I hope I haven't taken them out of context.

I've been watching this thread because a couple that we are good friends with had a baby recently. We've bonded over many a drink and dirty joke. I've witnessed a few people who, like your friends, seem to go off the deep end when they have kids and was concerned that my friends might do the same. I needn't have worried. They didn't change and baby is now just another part of their normal lives. In fact I met their baby for the first time at a bar! (Dad's a musician and mom and baby came to watch him. )
I think that in a case like yours, I might approach the problem from the angle that they have changed and I'm curious and even concerned. Stepping back from the more immediate situation of socializing with them and looking at their behavior, I think questioning it or even expressing concern would be fine.

I'd start with questions about how they were brought up. Didn't their parents drink, swear and tell dirty jokes? Where did they learn to do that so that they fit in with your crowd? Where had they gotten the idea that it got into their kids psyche and caused problems? Had what they'd heard caused problems for them? Is there a point when the kid's psyche is no longer so fragile? What's behind this change? Then I'd see where that led. I would never lecture them or suggest that their parenting is bad, but I might express concern about their emotional and psychological well-being.

If nothing worked, I'd start socializing with them outside the group events. I'd still invite them to events, but I'd decline to go to their apartment until things change. Because the dynamics of the friendship are bound to change, for better or worse, as the kid ages. You can reassess at a later time.

Anyway, I feel for you and wish you luck. Your situation makes be feel like I've dodged a bullet. 

Regarding the two bolded sections. Many people learn to drink, swear and tell dirty jokes from their peers later in life and hide these abilities from their parents pretty well.  It's not an unusual stance for parents to try to cut out their own swearing around their young kids. Even if they feel fine with adults swearing, they may feel like a stream of Fs coming out of a toddler's mouth is a little off.

It's great that your friends have been so able to maintain their regular social lives. However, newborns are pretty portable, and can sleep thrugh noise when they need to. It could be that in a year's time, your friends with an 18month-old might find having him/her running around in the bar to be a bit more difficult to deal with. And when he/she starts talking at the same time, they mightn't want jnr exposed to a lot of swearing either. It depends on the child, as well, of course and how much they need routine.

CakeEater, with all due respect, if Mary and Mark feel so strongly, then they need to find new friends who are parents of children in the same age group as their child.  they do NOT need to dictate that their circle of friends will only socialize stuffed into their small apartment, sitting on the floor and speaking in whispers.  since Mary and Mark require all of their friends to whisper whilst Junior is asleep, i doubt their language is an issue.  first, Junior is asleep.  second, no one is allowed to speak in a normal tone of voice, so Junior can't hear them. Junior isn't likely to be absorbing bad language and off-color jokes in his dreams.

i have a 4 month old grandson.  i find myself not using swear words that i might have used before.  the hubs does the same thing.  i also notice that my son (grandbaby's daddy) is watching his language as well.  but we're doing it by choice.  no one is telling us that we HAVE to watch our language.  that's what Mary and Mark are doing. 

[Venus193]

When I was in broadcasting school we were instructed to eradicate profanity from our speech specifically so we don't fall into the habit of using it when under stress.  That is a good argument for them learning to not use swear words now before Junior is old enough to hear them clearly and start repeating them.

However, the dead silence and everything else will still come back to bite them on the tush.

[CakeEater]

From Devix:  Whenever anyone tells a dirty joke or a story that has us giggle they'll complain that they don't want junior to hear things like that as it could affect his psyche and they don't want him learning naughty words.

The reason we all gravitated together as friends is because we're all loud, boisterous people who share the same weird sense of humor.  No one else in the group has shown any displeasure about the way we act except for Mark and Mary.  They're the ones who have changed from the group dynamic and I don't feel as if I have to alter my personality just because they have.

My apologies, Devix, for cobbling together a couple of quotes from your posts, but these 2 stuck out of to me. I hope I haven't taken them out of context.

I've been watching this thread because a couple that we are good friends with had a baby recently. We've bonded over many a drink and dirty joke. I've witnessed a few people who, like your friends, seem to go off the deep end when they have kids and was concerned that my friends might do the same. I needn't have worried. They didn't change and baby is now just another part of their normal lives. In fact I met their baby for the first time at a bar! (Dad's a musician and mom and baby came to watch him. )
I think that in a case like yours, I might approach the problem from the angle that they have changed and I'm curious and even concerned. Stepping back from the more immediate situation of socializing with them and looking at their behavior, I think questioning it or even expressing concern would be fine.

I'd start with questions about how they were brought up. Didn't their parents drink, swear and tell dirty jokes? Where did they learn to do that so that they fit in with your crowd? Where had they gotten the idea that it got into their kids psyche and caused problems? Had what they'd heard caused problems for them? Is there a point when the kid's psyche is no longer so fragile? What's behind this change? Then I'd see where that led. I would never lecture them or suggest that their parenting is bad, but I might express concern about their emotional and psychological well-being.

If nothing worked, I'd start socializing with them outside the group events. I'd still invite them to events, but I'd decline to go to their apartment until things change. Because the dynamics of the friendship are bound to change, for better or worse, as the kid ages. You can reassess at a later time.

Anyway, I feel for you and wish you luck. Your situation makes be feel like I've dodged a bullet. 

Regarding the two bolded sections. Many people learn to drink, swear and tell dirty jokes from their peers later in life and hide these abilities from their parents pretty well.  It's not an unusual stance for parents to try to cut out their own swearing around their young kids. Even if they feel fine with adults swearing, they may feel like a stream of Fs coming out of a toddler's mouth is a little off.

It's great that your friends have been so able to maintain their regular social lives. However, newborns are pretty portable, and can sleep thrugh noise when they need to. It could be that in a year's time, your friends with an 18month-old might find having him/her running around in the bar to be a bit more difficult to deal with. And when he/she starts talking at the same time, they mightn't want jnr exposed to a lot of swearing either. It depends on the child, as well, of course and how much they need routine.

CakeEater, with all due respect, if Mary and Mark feel so strongly, then they need to find new friends who are parents of children in the same age group as their child.  they do NOT need to dictate that their circle of friends will only socialize stuffed into their small apartment, sitting on the floor and speaking in whispers.  since Mary and Mark require all of their friends to whisper whilst Junior is asleep, i doubt their language is an issue.  first, Junior is asleep.  second, no one is allowed to speak in a normal tone of voice, so Junior can't hear them. Junior isn't likely to be absorbing bad language and off-color jokes in his dreams.

i have a 4 month old grandson.  i find myself not using swear words that i might have used before.  the hubs does the same thing.  i also notice that my son (grandbaby's daddy) is watching his language as well.  but we're doing it by choice.  no one is telling us that we HAVE to watch our language.  that's what Mary and Mark are doing.

No, no, I don't disagree with you. Absolutely the couple don't get to change the whole group dynamic. I was just responding to the idea that people learn to drink, swear and carouse from their parents, and that wishing to stop their child witnessing said behaviour is evidence of psychological problems.