It's because of your kid UPDATE pg 6, 14

[Sharnita]

I think the club analogy probably is correct, at least for some people in the group.  They aren't so much real friends so much as people who happen to share an interest in shared behaviors and events.  For that reason Clair does not feel at all compelled by the "real friend" argument.  The problem is that the club has never been identified as a club and this couple thinks of it as a group of friends who should be acting like "real friends".

[thedudeabides]

Fails on all sides here. I agree with Sharnita that it's time to clue Mark and Mary in that the other members don't consider them friends and all move on. Might as well get it over with, since I somehow doubt the situation is going to improve any time soon. Then I'd just go with not answering the phone when Mary calls. Their priorities have changed, but nobody's handling it well on either side.

[Eeep!]

Fails on all sides here. I agree with Sharnita that it's time to clue Mark and Mary in that the other members don't consider them friends and all move on. Might as well get it over with, since I somehow doubt the situation is going to improve any time soon. Then I'd just go with not answering the phone when Mary calls. Their priorities have changed, but nobody's handling it well on either side.

Without knowing how everyone feels, I don't think it's very fair to say that all of the other members don't consider Mark and Mary friends just because they continue to schedule events that they can't come to.  Based on this thread, that would appear to be any event that isn't at Mark and Mary's house. I have two children who are now 3 years old and 4 months and I don't do as much as I used to out of the house just because of logistics. But I don't expect my friends to stop doing things with our other friends. For instance, for several years now I have had season theater tickets with my sister and a mutual friend.  When I first had my ODS I bowed out for a season because I was adjusting to being a new mom and breastfeeding and all that jazz (second time around I'm just missing one play. heh.)  It would never have occurred to me to that my sister and friend should stop going to the plays. And the plays really are my primary means of socializing with my one friend. Now if both my friend and sister NEVER did anything with me then I would be hurt but not just because they continued with tradition without me.

Of course, if the group is fairly large, it is likely that some people are closer friends and some our more like "club members" but that doesn't meant that the whole group should be painted with one brush.

Regarding the FB exchange - how unfortunate that Claire decided to handle it that way. However, it does show that Mary really does believe that people should stop doing the things the group has always done just because she has a baby. Which is just ridiculous in my opinion.

[Sharnita]

Eeep!, I think it is more because there is an indication that they don't want to have some events that accommodate Mark and Mary.  I absolutely think it is reasonable to schedule things that they can't attend but OP has indicated that there is not much interest in some give and take. 

[Cat-Fu]

Yikes! What a mess, all around. If you want to remain friends with Mary I wouldn't keep dodging her calls, but if you want to cool off the friendship, I suppose now's a good time as any...

[Eeep!]

Eeep!, I think it is more because there is an indication that they don't want to have some events that accommodate Mark and Mary.  I absolutely think it is reasonable to schedule things that they can't attend but OP has indicated that there is not much interest in some give and take.

Ah OK - I see what you are saying. But it sounds like there was an initial willingness for the give and take and it just isn't really that feasible, mostly because of Mark and Mary's demands.  So I still don't know that's a very good barometer for friendship.  I guess that the group could suck it up a few times a year and do a "quite night in with Mark and Mary", but one could say the same about M&M getting a sitter or something. 

Although as I'm thinking about it, if people in the group rarely ever do anything outside a group setting, that does really push it more into group territory. But I would presume that would go the same for Mark and Mary. Are they trying to do things with individuals as you would more close friends or are they only wanting to stick to the group setting? Because if it's the former, then I guess it could be said that they should just inform the group that they aren't really friends either. 

[Queen of Clubs]

Eeep!, I think it is more because there is an indication that they don't want to have some events that accommodate Mark and Mary.  I absolutely think it is reasonable to schedule things that they can't attend but OP has indicated that there is not much interest in some give and take.

Ah OK - I see what you are saying. But it sounds like there was an initial willingness for the give and take and it just isn't really that feasible, mostly because of Mark and Mary's demands.  So I still don't know that's a very good barometer for friendship.  I guess that the group could suck it up a few times a year and do a "quite night in with Mark and Mary", but one could say the same about M&M getting a sitter or something. 

Although as I'm thinking about it, if people in the group rarely ever do anything outside a group setting, that does really push it more into group territory. But I would presume that would go the same for Mark and Mary. Are they trying to do things with individuals as you would more close friends or are they only wanting to stick to the group setting? Because if it's the former, then I guess it could be said that they should just inform the group that they aren't really friends either. 

I agree.  That's how the situation reads to me.

As for the update - ouch.  Claire certainly didn't mince her words and she should have phrased it far, far better than she did, but Mary was out of line in the first place.  It sounds like she expects the group to stop getting together (except at her place, of course) unless she and Mark can be there.

OP, if you don't want to agree with Claire's sentiment (not the wording, obviously), I think you'd be better to duck Mary's calls.  At this stage, I think anything other than agreeing fully with Mary will set her off again.

[Devix]

Eeep!, I think it is more because there is an indication that they don't want to have some events that accommodate Mark and Mary.  I absolutely think it is reasonable to schedule things that they can't attend but OP has indicated that there is not much interest in some give and take.

I have to disagree.  One of the main reasons this is such a problem is that all they do is take.  We have already changed plans and pushed the events to their house on 3 separate occasions despite all the shushing and the cramped space.  They have attended exactly 0 of the other events that weren't at their house and have complained about it.

Friendship is a give and take but they're not giving anything.

I'm going to be ducking her calls at least for the next few days and luckily work has been hectic with a new project so I'll at least have an excuse.

[MrsJWine]

I'm going to be ducking her calls at least for the next few days and luckily work has been hectic with a new project so I'll at least have an excuse.

I don't think you even need an excuse. I think it's pretty obvious that nothing's going to change, and maybe she needs to see that none of the other people in the group are siding with her. If they're such takers, I wouldn't be interested in sustaining the friendship anymore, either. I wouldn't pull a Claire if I were you, but I would be honest: "Sorry, Mary. Claire wasn't polite, but she was right. We're not going to change everything just because you guys had a kid. We don't expect you to do everything you used to with us, but you've made no effort whatsoever to compromise." You don't have to be all speechy like that, since that sounds pretty stilted, but I think she needs some directness. At worst, she'll stomp off and not be your friend anymore. At best, she might reevaluate her own role in this.

Ducking her calls and then claiming it was because of work will just drag out the misery for both of you.

[Sharnita]

Eeep!, I think it is more because there is an indication that they don't want to have some events that accommodate Mark and Mary.  I absolutely think it is reasonable to schedule things that they can't attend but OP has indicated that there is not much interest in some give and take.

I have to disagree.  One of the main reasons this is such a problem is that all they do is take.  We have already changed plans and pushed the events to their house on 3 separate occasions despite all the shushing and the cramped space.  They have attended exactly 0 of the other events that weren't at their house and have complained about it.

Friendship is a give and take but they're not giving anything.

I'm going to be ducking her calls at least for the next few days and luckily work has been hectic with a new project so I'll at least have an excuse.

You said earlier that there wasn't really a lot of interest in a quiet evening of conversation form time to time.  As far as the times in their apartment, it doesn't sound as if it was all that hushed, more like they were asking that it be and then were dismayed to have at least some outbursts.  I think that if it isn't something you want to make an effort to do to keep the friendship going then that is fine but it does seem to indicate that it is not a high priority friendship - possibly on either side.

[still in va]

Popped out a brat?  That Claire is a real classy gal.

i don't love how Claire expressed it, but it does seem that Mary wants the entire group to not have any fun that she can't have.  it's a fact that Mary and Mark had a baby.  it's also a fact that the rest of the group might like to do something besides plunking their butts into Mary and Mark's living room, sharing pizza and talking in whispers lest they wake the toddler.

Mary needed to hear what Claire said.  i hope she listened.

[still in va]

Mary:  Funny.  Nice to know who our real friends are.  Real friends wouldn't keep scheduling stuff when they know we can't come.

this comment, right here, by Mary? was pretty much what i've been feeling through this whole thread.  Mary can't go out and have fun, so no one else can go out and have fun.  all of the crowd of friends must only socialize at her apartment in whispers so as not to disturb the toddler. 

i think Mary got a huge dose of reality.  she's basically tried to hold this group hostage so she can socialize with them on her terms, but she's not willing to allow them to do anything that doesn't include her.  which is anything that takes place outside of her apartment, because she doesn't want to leave her toddler with a babysitter.  completely her choice.  but she can't get bent out of shape if others decide they want to go to a bar, or a restaurant, or a baseball game.  she made her choice.  she needs to accept it. she needs to develop new friendships with other parents who are willing to sit on the floor of her apartment and speak in whispers so as not to disturb the sleeping children.

[Yvaine]

Eeep!, I think it is more because there is an indication that they don't want to have some events that accommodate Mark and Mary.  I absolutely think it is reasonable to schedule things that they can't attend but OP has indicated that there is not much interest in some give and take.

I have to disagree.  One of the main reasons this is such a problem is that all they do is take.  We have already changed plans and pushed the events to their house on 3 separate occasions despite all the shushing and the cramped space.  They have attended exactly 0 of the other events that weren't at their house and have complained about it.

Friendship is a give and take but they're not giving anything.

I'm going to be ducking her calls at least for the next few days and luckily work has been hectic with a new project so I'll at least have an excuse.

You said earlier that there wasn't really a lot of interest in a quiet evening of conversation form time to time.  As far as the times in their apartment, it doesn't sound as if it was all that hushed, more like they were asking that it be and then were dismayed to have at least some outbursts.  I think that if it isn't something you want to make an effort to do to keep the friendship going then that is fine but it does seem to indicate that it is not a high priority friendship - possibly on either side.

I don't know if you've experienced this, but people can be unreasonable about their shushing even during a quiet night of conversation. They'll shush for levels of volume that are not actually very loud, or (in one case in my own experience) start admonishing people for not instinctively knowing the acoustic quirks of the parents' house. You could speak in a normal tone in this corner of the room, but they'd bite your head off if you used the same tone in that corner of the room, because sound carried up the stairs better from there even though the stairs were nowhere nearby, and so on. And they didn't brief people beforehand--"btw, try to be quiet in these spots, it'll wake the kid"--they just let people blunder into talking in the wrong places and then got huffy.

Because really it had a lot to do with wanting to control their friends (more than it had to do with not waking the kid), which ended up coming out in a lot of other ways too and lost them the friendship of most of our group eventually.

[Sharnita]

I can enjoy quiet conversation but I have no desire to.  The reason we all gravitated together as friends is because we're all loud, boisterous people who share the same weird sense of humor.  No one else in the group has shown any displeasure about the way we act except for Mark and Mary.  They're the ones who have changed from the group dynamic and I don't feel as if I have to alter my personality just because they have.  It is a give and take but we've tried it their way on 3 separate occasions and they have yet to reciprocate and join in on occasions that didn't take place in their home. 


Based on OP's early response it kind of sounds like the group dynamic is the primary concern which is what gives the club vs. friend vibe, IMO. I think that can be made clear without resorting to nasty phrasing like Claire used.

[Winterlight]

Claire and Mary both flunk. Claire for being rude, Mary for being PA and rude.

Mary:  Funny.  Nice to know who our real friends are.  Real friends wouldn't keep scheduling stuff when they know we can't come.

this comment, right here, by Mary? was pretty much what i've been feeling through this whole thread.  Mary can't go out and have fun, so no one else can go out and have fun.  all of the crowd of friends must only socialize at her apartment in whispers so as not to disturb the toddler. 

i think Mary got a huge dose of reality.  she's basically tried to hold this group hostage so she can socialize with them on her terms, but she's not willing to allow them to do anything that doesn't include her.  which is anything that takes place outside of her apartment, because she doesn't want to leave her toddler with a babysitter.  completely her choice.  but she can't get bent out of shape if others decide they want to go to a bar, or a restaurant, or a baseball game.  she made her choice.  she needs to accept it. she needs to develop new friendships with other parents who are willing to sit on the floor of her apartment and speak in whispers so as not to disturb the sleeping children.

Yep. She's trying to run the group to suit her, and nobody else wants to play along because she's so demanding and SSy.