It's because of your kid UPDATE pg 6, 14

[Shoo]

"Mary: Funny.  Nice to know who our real friends are.  Real friends wouldn't keep scheduling stuff when they know we can't come.
Claire:  Real friends know that the world doesn't stop spinning just because they popped out a brat."

Choking here laughing. Yes, yes, I know it was poor etiquette but who here hasn't wanted to actually say what everyone in the group was Really thinking after dealing with a demanding person." 

Throw me into Ehell, but I laughed too.  And it was even worse because I first misread "popped" as "pooped"

I too would never ever say that out loud and since this was a written conversation, there was time to think of better words, but I couldn't help but laugh and secretly agree with Claire.

The problem with Claire's statement, as well as the title of this thread, is that an innocent toddler is being labeled as the problem.  No, Claire, Mary did NOT pop out a "brat."  And no, OP, it's NOT because of her kid.  Mary is a brat, and SHE is the problem.

[NyaChan]

Shoo I think you put your finger on what was bothering me quite well.  The child is neither the problem nor a brat.  Mary and Mark's expectations of others are the problem.

[still in va]

Shoo I think you put your finger on what was bothering me quite well.  The child is neither the problem nor a brat.  Mary and Mark's expectations of others are the problem.

Devix has already previously stated, quite clearly in this thread, that she and the other members of the group are very well aware who exactly the problem is in this situation.  she's also stated that the toddler is a cute, happy little guy. 

"it's because of your kid" has simply become the group shorthand for why Mary and Mark won't attend something yet again, or why they want everyone to come to their place.  no one is blaming the toddler for anything.  and if anyone is using him, it's his parents, as a tool to make their friends do what they want.

[snowdragon]

Chiming in late here.....

Although I agree that Mary needs to get over it and leave the kid with a sitter if she wants to participate in some activities, I also don't see any indication that people have made any effort to do things to include her and her family. If that just isn't what the groups wants, then I think it is only fair to tell her that the group has no interest in family friendly activities.

However, I personally think that what Claire said is an absolutely SLAP in the face to Mary.  It seems that everyone is willing to say, well...she was rude but Mary deserved it. I thought that rudeness because of rudeness what NEVER ok. Personally, I wouldn't care to even be friends with someone who said I chose to 'pop out a brat.' So it seems like the group would get what they want anyway - to get rid of Mary and her family. I don't think that anyone handled this well, but it seems that no one has even been willing to talk to Mary about the problem, just talk horribly about her. Yes, she has been PA and NO, I don't think her requests are reasonable at all. However, even PA people who are my friends, I try to work with them occassionally. At least then I can say I tried. And if it doesn't work out, I talk to them and tell them why.

  Why is it the groups job to find family friendly activities?  They have tried the ONE thing Mark and Mary deem acceptable - and that activity is sitting around in the too small apartment whispering only about the baby. So why is it there job to find things for the group to do that center on this family? That's not the types of thing the group likes, and they should not have to put forth ALL the effort to change and "compromise" while Mark and Mary do nothing but dictate new standards of behavior for their adult friends.  Mark and Mary need to make some effort too.  They are not. What they are doing is trying to change the entire tone of the get togethers forever because of their choices. And they don't get to do that.  The rest of the people in that group have the right to do things they
enjoy when they have the chance to do it .

[Shoo]

Shoo I think you put your finger on what was bothering me quite well.  The child is neither the problem nor a brat.  Mary and Mark's expectations of others are the problem.

Devix has already previously stated, quite clearly in this thread, that she and the other members of the group are very well aware who exactly the problem is in this situation.  she's also stated that the toddler is a cute, happy little guy. 

"it's because of your kid" has simply become the group shorthand for why Mary and Mark won't attend something yet again, or why they want everyone to come to their place.  no one is blaming the toddler for anything.  and if anyone is using him, it's his parents, as a tool to make their friends do what they want.

Maybe, but every time I see the title of this thread, I find it hard to not feel like the OP has a thing about children in general.  And then after what Claire said, I start to think maybe it's the whole group.  It's not hard to change the title of a thread.  To me, the title of the thread indicates a bias that the OP probably doesn't mean to indicate.

[NyaChan]

Shoo I think you put your finger on what was bothering me quite well.  The child is neither the problem nor a brat.  Mary and Mark's expectations of others are the problem.

Devix has already previously stated, quite clearly in this thread, that she and the other members of the group are very well aware who exactly the problem is in this situation.  she's also stated that the toddler is a cute, happy little guy. 

"it's because of your kid" has simply become the group shorthand for why Mary and Mark won't attend something yet again, or why they want everyone to come to their place.  no one is blaming the toddler for anything.  and if anyone is using him, it's his parents, as a tool to make their friends do what they want.

My comment really wasn't meant to be directed to Devix - I can understand a cute phrase for a thread title, we all do it.  I was responding more to the tone of some of the recent posts re: Clair's brat comment, a comment which to me at least had a very negative attitude towards the child itself rather than the parents.  Posters were saying that Clair while rude, only said what people in the group were actually thinking - I doubt that Devix actually thinks that the baby is a brat in the true sense of the word. 

[snowdragon]

Shoo I think you put your finger on what was bothering me quite well.  The child is neither the problem nor a brat.  Mary and Mark's expectations of others are the problem.

Devix has already previously stated, quite clearly in this thread, that she and the other members of the group are very well aware who exactly the problem is in this situation.  she's also stated that the toddler is a cute, happy little guy. 

"it's because of your kid" has simply become the group shorthand for why Mary and Mark won't attend something yet again, or why they want everyone to come to their place.  no one is blaming the toddler for anything.  and if anyone is using him, it's his parents, as a tool to make their friends do what they want.

My comment really wasn't meant to be directed to Devix - I can understand a cute phrase for a thread title, we all do it.  I was responding more to the tone of some of the recent posts re: Clair's brat comment, a comment which to me at least had a very negative attitude towards the child itself rather than the parents.  Posters were saying that Clair while rude, only said what people in the group were actually thinking - I doubt that Devix actually thinks that the baby is a brat in the true sense of the word.

  I wonder what the parents say when they forbid certain language and activities. When I read the first post in this thread and some of the clarifying ones, I can just about hear those words "Don't do that because of the baby", "Don't talk above a whisper because of the baby", "Don't XXXXX, because of the kid" ,"We can't join you because of the kid" - if the parents are phrasing things like this,, the natural response from the friends is going to be to pick up the parent's attitude, and start wording things as being because of the kid.
 

[Minmom3]

I don't remember who posted it here earlier, but somebody had a child and did NOT act as Mark and Mary have done; they fit the baby in with the ongoing activities.  Kid gets accustomed to the group's normal, group only has to make minimal adjustment to accommodate new parents  and infant.  How would Devix's group have reacted if Mark and Mary had done this?  We'll never know, because they didn't, but I'd bet solid money that if M&M had done as the other new parents did, Devix's group would have been much more likely to accommodate Mary's wishes.  Mary chose to be repressive and restrictive, and should not be surprised and offended when the group resists.  While Claire's words were awful, the sentiment behind them, that Mary has no right to expect the group's activities to stop just because Mary feels she can't participate any longer, is, IMO, perfectly correct.  IMO, Mary's nuts to expect that, and she most likely got that hostile response because she's been so rigid and uncooperative for so long.  9 months of pregnancy and 18 months of an alive baby is more than long enough to expect any social group to cater to you....

[Sharnita]

Since the parents are asking those things and not the kid it still makes no sense to call him a brat.  If the kid was going around telling them to be quiet and not to swear, etc. I might have some sympathy but since this is all coming from the parents calling the 18 month old a brat strikes me as a deliberately low blow.

[still in va]

Shoo I think you put your finger on what was bothering me quite well.  The child is neither the problem nor a brat.  Mary and Mark's expectations of others are the problem.

Devix has already previously stated, quite clearly in this thread, that she and the other members of the group are very well aware who exactly the problem is in this situation.  she's also stated that the toddler is a cute, happy little guy. 

"it's because of your kid" has simply become the group shorthand for why Mary and Mark won't attend something yet again, or why they want everyone to come to their place.  no one is blaming the toddler for anything.  and if anyone is using him, it's his parents, as a tool to make their friends do what they want.

My comment really wasn't meant to be directed to Devix - I can understand a cute phrase for a thread title, we all do it.  I was responding more to the tone of some of the recent posts re: Clair's brat comment, a comment which to me at least had a very negative attitude towards the child itself rather than the parents.  Posters were saying that Clair while rude, only said what people in the group were actually thinking[/b] - I doubt that Devix actually thinks that the baby is a brat in the true sense of the word.

i think the way Claire stated it was terribly rude, and have said so here.  i also think the sentiment behind the statement probably IS what the rest of the group is thinking.  i probably would be.   not the actual remark, but the reason the remark was made.  Mary's snotty little comment "must be nice...." was the straw that broke the camel's back.

[LeveeWoman]

I feel sorry for the kid if the parents retain this attitude through life. SS helicopter parents.

[snowdragon]

And everyone has said Claire was wrong in her wording and she's the only one who called the kid that.  BUT the sentiment that is coming across that things have to be done Mary and Marks way "because of the kid" are coming from none other than the parents. And to loose that in the OP would change the entire sense of what's going on here. The child is being used as a weapon to control other people. By his PARENTS.  After a few months of hearing "because of the kid" or such it probably became almost a sung refrain in the group - it would in mine. And its frequency of use is probably why the title was chosen as it was.
 

[still in va]

Shoo I think you put your finger on what was bothering me quite well.  The child is neither the problem nor a brat.  Mary and Mark's expectations of others are the problem.

Devix has already previously stated, quite clearly in this thread, that she and the other members of the group are very well aware who exactly the problem is in this situation.  she's also stated that the toddler is a cute, happy little guy. 

"it's because of your kid" has simply become the group shorthand for why Mary and Mark won't attend something yet again, or why they want everyone to come to their place.  no one is blaming the toddler for anything.  and if anyone is using him, it's his parents, as a tool to make their friends do what they want.

Maybe, but every time I see the title of this thread, I find it hard to not feel like the OP has a thing about children in general.  And then after what Claire said, I start to think maybe it's the whole group.  It's not hard to change the title of a thread.  To me, the title of the thread indicates a bias that the OP probably doesn't mean to indicate.

i don't get any "thing" against children.  i see a group of 14 people in their mid-20's who doesn't want to spend all of their go-out-to-party-hardy time accommodating a couple who have chosen to have a child at this time in their lives.  the group hasn't declared themselves to be rabidly child-free and voted the parents out of the group.  not being at a point in one's life where they do not want children at this time is not a bias.  it's being at different places in life.

i don't understand your "maybe".  i've gone back to read Devix's posts, and she said what i attributed to her.  regarding changing the title of the thread, Devix hasn't been here that long.  most of us know how to change the title, and most of us do so to reflect updates.  maybe Devix doesn't know how to do that, or hasn't noticed the changing of titles to reflect updates.  i don't see that as a bias either.

[Minmom3]

And everyone has said Claire was wrong in her wording and she's the only one who called the kid that.  BUT the sentiment that is coming across that things have to be done Mary and Marks way "because of the kid" are coming from none other than the parents. And to loose that in the OP would change the entire sense of what's going on here. The child is being used as a weapon to control other people. By his PARENTS.  After a few months of hearing "because of the kid" or such it probably became almost a sung refrain in the group - it would in mine. And its frequency of use is probably why the title was chosen as it was.
 

PODDILY PODDILY POD POD POD

[still in va]

Since the parents are asking those things and not the kid it still makes no sense to call him a brat.  If the kid was going around telling them to be quiet and not to swear, etc. I might have some sympathy but since this is all coming from the parents calling the 18 month old a brat strikes me as a deliberately low blow.

one person called him a brat, in the midst of a FB fight started by the child's mother.  the group isn't using it as the toddler's new nickname, and the child isn't on FB.  people say things in the heat of the moment.  Claire did so.  it wasn't at all deliberate.