It's because of your kid UPDATE pg 6, 14

[fountainof]

Well, calling the baby a brat is way over the line and I cannot support that.  However, Mary does seem to be the world revolves around my baby kind of person.  And while parents need to focus on their child if they do it and discount everything else it will be hard to maintain friendships.  I think it is fine for Mary to never do anything without her child but she must accept the consequences, right now she just wants it all and that is not fair to other people in the group.

I have a friend who just had a baby and while she hasn't reached Mary territory she does blame the rest of us for the lack of contact as she would like us to arrange everything around the baby, only going to her house as well.  The thing is I have a kid too and my friend's house is boring for my 3 year-old so I have to get a sitter when I visit my friend, which is okay some of the time but I won't have a sitter for my child every week to go visit another child. 

We have a mutual best friend friend who I think is a bit done at this point and probably will move on.  They have been friends for decades so that is sad.  I have always known the friend with the baby is self-absorbed and I have always worked with that so I am not so disappointed/hurt with how the relationship is now but my best friend she didn't see the other friend's selfish tendencies as much and has been really hurt because the friend with the baby never even asks her about her life, it is all ME ME BABY BABY, etc. when they talk.   

[Sharnita]

Since the parents are asking those things and not the kid it still makes no sense to call him a brat.  If the kid was going around telling them to be quiet and not to swear, etc. I might have some sympathy but since this is all coming from the parents calling the 18 month old a brat strikes me as a deliberately low blow.

one person called him a brat, in the midst of a FB fight started by the child's mother.  the group isn't using it as the toddler's new nickname, and the child isn't on FB.  people say things in the heat of the moment.  Claire did so.  it wasn't at all deliberate.

You don't think Claire's wording was deliberate?  Are we giving Mary the same pass?  I think Claire knew exactly what she was saying and was going for the most hurtful thing she could say.  If she can't control herself in the heat of the moment then she might want to avoid social media because calling toddlers names just seems inexcusable to me.

[still in va]

Since the parents are asking those things and not the kid it still makes no sense to call him a brat.  If the kid was going around telling them to be quiet and not to swear, etc. I might have some sympathy but since this is all coming from the parents calling the 18 month old a brat strikes me as a deliberately low blow.

one person called him a brat, in the midst of a FB fight started by the child's mother.  the group isn't using it as the toddler's new nickname, and the child isn't on FB.  people say things in the heat of the moment.  Claire did so.  it wasn't at all deliberate.

You don't think Claire's wording was deliberate?  Are we giving Mary the same pass?  I think Claire knew exactly what she was saying and was going for the most hurtful thing she could say.  If she can't control herself in the heat of the moment then she might want to avoid social media because calling toddlers names just seems inexcusable to me.

i'm giving Mary a small pass for her part of the FB argument because it doesn't sound to me like anyone has ever straight up told her, "Look Mary, we like you, we like Mark, Toddler is adorable.  but we're not willing to spend one evening a week crammed into your living room, whispering and being lectured on our language, and never ever again doing anything fun."  she feels people pulling away, but doesn't seem to have the self-awareness to figure out that it's her actions causing it. 

i don't know if Claire's wording was deliberate or not; i wasn't sitting next to her when she posted it.  but i might have had a strong reaction to having Mary tell me flat out that true friends wouldn't do things anymore that she couldn't.  i get that the word "brat" is incendiary.  it's not a word that i like.  but if Claire had used the phrase "had a baby" instead of "popped out a brat", would you agree with the point she was making?

i've said things in the heat of the moment that i have regretted, especially in my mid-20's. 

[Firecat]

Since the parents are asking those things and not the kid it still makes no sense to call him a brat.  If the kid was going around telling them to be quiet and not to swear, etc. I might have some sympathy but since this is all coming from the parents calling the 18 month old a brat strikes me as a deliberately low blow.

one person called him a brat, in the midst of a FB fight started by the child's mother.  the group isn't using it as the toddler's new nickname, and the child isn't on FB.  people say things in the heat of the moment.  Claire did so.  it wasn't at all deliberate.

You don't think Claire's wording was deliberate?  Are we giving Mary the same pass?  I think Claire knew exactly what she was saying and was going for the most hurtful thing she could say.  If she can't control herself in the heat of the moment then she might want to avoid social media because calling toddlers names just seems inexcusable to me.

I don't think either Mary or Claire acquitted herself very well. However, the fact remains that Claire followed the group's ordinary practice in posting the event details on Facebook, and Mary chose to make a completely uncalled-for nasty comment in response. If Claire had chosen to stop with "Yep, I love being irresponsible," Claire wouldn't have done anything wrong.

But I also think that people are overreacting somewhat to the child being referred to as a brat. If his parents are raising him to believe that the world revolves around him - which I think is a not-unreasonable conclusion based on their behavior to the friend group - then "brat" may be a nearly-inevitable result. However, it wasn't said directly to the child or even in the child's presence, so the chances of the child being directly hurt by it are minimal at most. In this case, I think the group's bias is not "anti-child," but "anti-obnoxious parent."

However, I think it's fair to say that the description was aimed at the mother, not the child...and was mostly a return volley with the mother's chosen weapon - that is, the child. Doesn't make it ok, because as I said, I don't think either participant acquitted herself politely...but I also think it's fair to say that this has been simmering for awhile, and that Mary largely brought it on herself.

Yes, Claire was rude in this one specific instance. Mary has been way beyond rude - she has been passive-aggressive, controlling, and judgemental of people who are only continuing behavior in which she herself engaged before her situation changed. So on the rude behavior scale, I'd personally sentence Mary to a much deeper level of EHell than I would Claire. Especially if Claire apologizes for her terminology...but NOT for the sentiment.

[Sharnita]

I absolutely would agree with her had she chosen different wording but the wording is hugely important, at least to me.

Let's say a friend started dating somebody and he expected everyone to change their normal routine to do what she liked to do.  now they could say, "Just because you started dating that girl doesn't mean we need to change everything" or "Just because you started banging that slut..." Wouldn't the language in second option be downright offensive?  Would the "heat of the moment" be a reasonable excuse to refer to her that way?  It doesn't even address the person making the unreasonable demands. 

[Firecat]

I absolutely would agree with her had she chosen different wording but the wording is hugely important, at least to me.

Let's say a friend started dating somebody and he expected everyone to change their normal routine to do what she liked to do.  now they could say, "Just because you started dating that girl doesn't mean we need to change everything" or "Just because you started banging that slut..." Wouldn't the language in second option be downright offensive?  Would the "heat of the moment" be a reasonable excuse to refer to her that way?  It doesn't even address the person making the unreasonable demands.

So...while in your mid-20s and angry (and, in my opinion at least, angry for good reason), you always worded everything perfectly, and never used language others might consider inflammatory or offensive? I know I didn't.

But I think that Claire's one-time offense is, while still an offense, a lesser offense than Mary's long-term pattern of behavior.

[Sharnita]

I absolutely would agree with her had she chosen different wording but the wording is hugely important, at least to me.

Let's say a friend started dating somebody and he expected everyone to change their normal routine to do what she liked to do.  now they could say, "Just because you started dating that girl doesn't mean we need to change everything" or "Just because you started banging that slut..." Wouldn't the language in second option be downright offensive?  Would the "heat of the moment" be a reasonable excuse to refer to her that way?  It doesn't even address the person making the unreasonable demands.

So...while in your mid-20s and angry (and, in my opinion at least, angry for good reason), you always worded everything perfectly, and never used language others might consider inflammatory or offensive? I know I didn't.

But I think that Claire's one-time offense is, while still an offense, a lesser offense than Mary's long-term pattern of behavior.

I can honestly say I never went after toddlers, especially for the offenses of their parents. If other people can't say the same I don't know what to tell you. 

[Queen of Clubs]

I think everyone (or nearly everyone) is agreed that saying "popped out a brat" is rude.  Arguing over it will probably get the thread locked.  Claire was rude to say what she said, can we agree on that and move on?

It's not the fact that M&M have a child that's the problem; it's their attitude and demands that the group rearrange their meetings and go sit in their living room, and only talk quietly (and, IIRC, M&M drag the conversation back to their baby) that's the problem.  I don't blame the group at all for not wanting to do that, especially as they've accommodated M&M three times while M&M have refused every invitation unless the get together takes place in their living room.  Now Mary is complaining that people are refusing, well, I don't blame them.

M&M need to change their attitude, join in when they can, or find a group of friends who will accommodate their demands.

[Firecat]

I absolutely would agree with her had she chosen different wording but the wording is hugely important, at least to me.

Let's say a friend started dating somebody and he expected everyone to change their normal routine to do what she liked to do.  now they could say, "Just because you started dating that girl doesn't mean we need to change everything" or "Just because you started banging that slut..." Wouldn't the language in second option be downright offensive?  Would the "heat of the moment" be a reasonable excuse to refer to her that way?  It doesn't even address the person making the unreasonable demands.

So...while in your mid-20s and angry (and, in my opinion at least, angry for good reason), you always worded everything perfectly, and never used language others might consider inflammatory or offensive? I know I didn't.

But I think that Claire's one-time offense is, while still an offense, a lesser offense than Mary's long-term pattern of behavior.

I can honestly say I never went after toddlers, especially for the offenses of their parents. If other people can't say the same I don't know what to tell you.

What makes the difference for me is that, as I previously stated, Claire didn't say it to the child, in the child's presence, or even in a medium the child is likely to be able to understand on his own (at least, I'm asssuming the little one can't read yet, and most likely doesn't have access to his mother's Facebook...or at least I sincerely hope so...). Claire said it to Mary...when Mary has been using the poor kid as a weapon to attempt to control the others...so in a way, Mary herself made the child the focus of the battle.

Once again, I agree that what Claire said was wrong. I just don't agree that one comment, made when understandably angry, is somehow worse than what Mary's been pulling all along...or is even really on the same level. In general, I find a one-time lapse more forgiveable than a history of bad behavior, provided that nothing like physical violence is involved.

[Tabby Uprising]

I think everyone (or nearly everyone) is agreed that saying "popped out a brat" is rude.  Arguing over it will probably get the thread locked.  Claire was rude to say what she said, can we agree on that and move on?

It's not the fact that M&M have a child that's the problem; it's their attitude and demands that the group rearrange their meetings and go sit in their living room, and only talk quietly (and, IIRC, M&M drag the conversation back to their baby) that's the problem.  I don't blame the group at all for not wanting to do that, especially as they've accommodated M&M three times while M&M have refused every invitation unless the get together takes place in their living room.  Now Mary is complaining that people are refusing, well, I don't blame them.

M&M need to change their attitude, join in when they can, or find a group of friends who will accommodate their demands.

Been reading through this thread and have thought of comments along the way, but this pretty much says it all!

[buvezdevin]

Wow, what an update and interesting follow on posts.

I don't care for Claire's choice of wording, but the mental images conjured by some other posts of an 18 month old shaking a finger and scolding adults for bad language in his presence, or checking his mother's Facebook and taking umbrage at being referred to as a brat, gave me chuckles.

While neither Mary nor Claire handled the posting of messages optimally, I think Mary's posts reflecting her unrealistic expectations and dismissiveness of others social planning (unless catering to Mary only) are infinitely more appalling than Claire's poor choice of phrasing when expressing a completely understandable (from my POV) frustration with *Mary* - not the child, but the childish parent with demands.

I realize my view is not universal on that point, but to me - Mary was passively aggressively insulting the group, and trying to press her unreasonable agenda.  Claire reflexively made defensive posts, which unfortunately included a derogatory phrasing, but the logic of Claire's posts is one I would otherwise endorse, unlike Mary's.

[lowspark]

Since the parents are asking those things and not the kid it still makes no sense to call him a brat.  If the kid was going around telling them to be quiet and not to swear, etc. I might have some sympathy but since this is all coming from the parents calling the 18 month old a brat strikes me as a deliberately low blow.

one person called him a brat, in the midst of a FB fight started by the child's mother.  the group isn't using it as the toddler's new nickname, and the child isn't on FB.  people say things in the heat of the moment.  Claire did so.  it wasn't at all deliberate.

You don't think Claire's wording was deliberate?  Are we giving Mary the same pass?  I think Claire knew exactly what she was saying and was going for the most hurtful thing she could say.  If she can't control herself in the heat of the moment then she might want to avoid social media because calling toddlers names just seems inexcusable to me.

i'm giving Mary a small pass for her part of the FB argument because it doesn't sound to me like anyone has ever straight up told her, "Look Mary, we like you, we like Mark, Toddler is adorable.  but we're not willing to spend one evening a week crammed into your living room, whispering and being lectured on our language, and never ever again doing anything fun."  she feels people pulling away, but doesn't seem to have the self-awareness to figure out that it's her actions causing it. 

i don't know if Claire's wording was deliberate or not; i wasn't sitting next to her when she posted it.  but i might have had a strong reaction to having Mary tell me flat out that true friends wouldn't do things anymore that she couldn't.  i get that the word "brat" is incendiary.  it's not a word that i like.  but if Claire had used the phrase "had a baby" instead of "popped out a brat", would you agree with the point she was making?

i've said things in the heat of the moment that i have regretted, especially in my mid-20's.

I don't see how Mary deserves a pass for what she said on FB.
She is essentially saying to the group that she feels that they should not be able to do anything that Mary cannot/chooses not to do as a result of her choice to have a baby. Who says that to their friends?
What if you posted on FB that you were going to see the latest released movie and that anyone interested should join you, and then one of your friends replied that she can't come and that because she can't come, neither you nor any of your other friends should go either. And said it in such a way as to attempt to lay a guilt trip on you for even thinking of going to a movie when she can't go.

The way Mary (and Mark) are trying to manipulate this group of adults into conforming to their requirements is mind-boggling. "Hey! None of you can ever have any fun anymore because Mark & I had a baby and if we can't have any fun then neither can any of the rest of you!" Yeah. Those are folks I want to maintain a friendship with. Not.

I don't really see why anyone would have to straight-up tell a reasonable intelligent adult that her behavior and expectations are out of line. Yeah, they could have that conversation, but based on Mary-and-Mark's reactions to what's already been done and said, I wouldn't want to be the one to engage in it.

This is a case of people trying to bend over backwards to accommodate increasingly unreasonable requests and being scolded for not bending over backards far enough.

[jemma]

I agree that it doesn't sound like you guys are really friends, and it may be hard for Mary to realize that the people she was spending all her time with weren't friends, they were just people with whom she could be rowdy with.  I think Mary is on the path to realizing she needs to make new friends which is hard and sad.  I'm like Mary in terms of how I choose to parent, but she's in for a hard lesson when she realizes what that means for her social life.  If I were you I would continue to invite her to events if I wanted her presence, and politely decline her invitations if they don't appeal to you. 

[still in va]

Since the parents are asking those things and not the kid it still makes no sense to call him a brat.  If the kid was going around telling them to be quiet and not to swear, etc. I might have some sympathy but since this is all coming from the parents calling the 18 month old a brat strikes me as a deliberately low blow.

one person called him a brat, in the midst of a FB fight started by the child's mother.  the group isn't using it as the toddler's new nickname, and the child isn't on FB.  people say things in the heat of the moment.  Claire did so.  it wasn't at all deliberate.

You don't think Claire's wording was deliberate?  Are we giving Mary the same pass?  I think Claire knew exactly what she was saying and was going for the most hurtful thing she could say.  If she can't control herself in the heat of the moment then she might want to avoid social media because calling toddlers names just seems inexcusable to me.

i'm giving Mary a small pass for her part of the FB argument because it doesn't sound to me like anyone has ever straight up told her, "Look Mary, we like you, we like Mark, Toddler is adorable.  but we're not willing to spend one evening a week crammed into your living room, whispering and being lectured on our language, and never ever again doing anything fun."  she feels people pulling away, but doesn't seem to have the self-awareness to figure out that it's her actions causing it. 

i don't know if Claire's wording was deliberate or not; i wasn't sitting next to her when she posted it.  but i might have had a strong reaction to having Mary tell me flat out that true friends wouldn't do things anymore that she couldn't.  i get that the word "brat" is incendiary.  it's not a word that i like.  but if Claire had used the phrase "had a baby" instead of "popped out a brat", would you agree with the point she was making?

i've said things in the heat of the moment that i have regretted, especially in my mid-20's.

I don't see how Mary deserves a pass for what she said on FB.
She is essentially saying to the group that she feels that they should not be able to do anything that Mary cannot/chooses not to do as a result of her choice to have a baby. Who says that to their friends?
What if you posted on FB that you were going to see the latest released movie and that anyone interested should join you, and then one of your friends replied that she can't come and that because she can't come, neither you nor any of your other friends should go either. And said it in such a way as to attempt to lay a guilt trip on you for even thinking of going to a movie when she can't go.

The way Mary (and Mark) are trying to manipulate this group of adults into conforming to their requirements is mind-boggling. "Hey! None of you can ever have any fun anymore because Mark & I had a baby and if we can't have any fun then neither can any of the rest of you!" Yeah. Those are folks I want to maintain a friendship with. Not.

I don't really see why anyone would have to straight-up tell a reasonable intelligent adult that her behavior and expectations are out of line. Yeah, they could have that conversation, but based on Mary-and-Mark's reactions to what's already been done and said, I wouldn't want to be the one to engage in it.

This is a case of people trying to bend over backwards to accommodate increasingly unreasonable requests and being scolded for not bending over backards far enough.

i guess i didn't explain clearly why i posted that.  from the information that we have, no one has come out an told Mary no.  just no, we don't want to sit on your floor every time we get together.  and i did make it clear that it was a very small pass.

i find Mary and Mark's behavior and demands to be completely outrageous, and wouldn't have enabled them for 6 months, let alone the 18 months that toddler has been on this earth.  i'll be surprised if many couples in the group are willing, going forward, to accede to her demands, after seeing her statement about true friends giving up what she can't do anymore.  and Devix probably isn't the only member of the group getting calls from Mary. 

there's always the popular statement that Mary needs to hear:  "Copernicus called; he wants to remind you that the Sun is the center of the universe."

[still in va]

I agree that it doesn't sound like you guys are really friends, and it may be hard for Mary to realize that the people she was spending all her time with weren't friends, they were just people with whom she could be rowdy with.  I think Mary is on the path to realizing she needs to make new friends which is hard and sad.  I'm like Mary in terms of how I choose to parent, but she's in for a hard lesson when she realizes what that means for her social life.  If I were you I would continue to invite her to events if I wanted her presence, and politely decline her invitations if they don't appeal to you.

i don't see a single problem with how Mary, and you, are raising your children.  don't want to leave your child with a sitter?  i think that's a fantastic decision for you and your child, and support you (and Mary) to the max.

it really doesn't matter to me if this is the Weekend Rowdy Group, or if they've been friends for years.  Mary is being unrealistic as to how her friends must behave now that she has a child.  it's not Mary's parenting decisions that are causing all of the drama; it's her attitude and expectations.  and her attitude when those unrealistic expectations are not met.