It's because of your kid UPDATE pg 6, 14

[LeveeWoman]

In response to those stating that the group didn't try to arrange "family friendly" activities for M&M and tot, I liken this group to our golf buddies.  We get together on Saturdays to play golf.  Not everyone makes it every Saturday, but the focus of our "friendship" is golf.  It would never occur to me to change the activity and go to Martha's house because Martha's daughter had a child and she has to babysit every Saturday.  The focus of the group is the activity, not necessarily the great friendships of the people involved, KWIM?

It's past time for Mary and Mark to move on.  I think if Claire had substituted "had a baby" for "popped out a brat" she would have been fine.

But, the group DID try to do just that! M&M refused to go along with it.

No. 97 on 10/1 addresses this.

[Sharnita]

I think they were at M&Ms apartment but and did try to be quiet but I it sounds like they were there after bed time and the language and jokes were probably still a little blue so "family friendly"  and "activities for M&M and tot" doesn't really fit exactly, either.  They did have it where M&M could attend and they tried not to wake the toddler. They gave in that respect for sure. 

[LeveeWoman]

I think they were at M&Ms apartment but and did try to be quiet but I it sounds like they were there after bed time and the language and jokes were probably still a little blue so "family friendly"  and "activities for M&M and tot" doesn't really fit exactly, either.  They did have it where M&M could attend and they tried not to wake the toddler. They gave in that respect for sure.

Here is post: ETA #97

I have to disagree.  One of the main reasons this is such a problem is that all they do is take.  We have already changed plans and pushed the events to their house on 3 separate occasions despite all the shushing and the cramped space.  They have attended exactly 0 of the other events that weren't at their house and have complained about it.

Friendship is a give and take but they're not giving anything.

I'm going to be ducking her calls at least for the next few days and luckily work has been hectic with a new project so I'll at least have an excuse.

[Sharnita]

Not really sure why you quoted that - that is exactly the basis for what I wrote.  They moved what they ususally do to M&M's apartment, got shsused because either they were too loud or used "bad" language.  That is pretty much my point.  They moved it 3 times so M&M could be there but I would not say that alone made the even family friendly and nothing in that post describes events for the tot.

[LifeOnPluto]

I think they were at M&Ms apartment but and did try to be quiet but I it sounds like they were there after bed time and the language and jokes were probably still a little blue so "family friendly"  and "activities for M&M and tot" doesn't really fit exactly, either.  They did have it where M&M could attend and they tried not to wake the toddler. They gave in that respect for sure.

Here is post: ETA #97

I have to disagree.  One of the main reasons this is such a problem is that all they do is take.  We have already changed plans and pushed the events to their house on 3 separate occasions despite all the shushing and the cramped space.  They have attended exactly 0 of the other events that weren't at their house and have complained about it.

Friendship is a give and take but they're not giving anything.

I'm going to be ducking her calls at least for the next few days and luckily work has been hectic with a new project so I'll at least have an excuse.

But there seems to be a spectrum, with Mary and Mark down one end (wanting very-child-friendly activities at their home) and the OP's group up the other end (wanting very-adult-oriented activities in places like bars and clubs). It's not clear (to me) from the OP's post how hard both sides have tried to compromise and meet in the middle of this spectrum.

Is it a case of:

OP's Group: "We're going clubbing on Friday night!"
Mary and Mark: "No, clubbing is unacceptable, and means we'll be excluded. Why don't you guys come over to our place instead?"
OP's Group: "Aw, ok then."

or is it:

OP's Group: "Why don't we all meet for a fun picnic in the park on Sunday afternoon? We'll provide the cheese and wine."
Mary and Mark: "No! Picnics in the park are unacceptable! In fact, any event that takes place outside our home and doesn't revolve around Junior is unacceptable! Why don't you guys come over to our place instead?"

If the OP's group has tried the latter approach, then yes, Mary and Mark are being totally ridiculous and entitled. However, if it's the former, I can kind of see where M+M are coming from (although obviously it doesn't excuse Mary's PA comments). In that case, it would be kind for the OP's group to try and meet them in the middle once in awhile.

[buvezdevin]

If M&M wanted to see this group, in a fun activity other than sitting in a small apartment, whispering and returning repeatedly to the subject of baby(ies) - it's clear that Mary understands and is able to post to the group.  She doesn't seem to have chosen to propose any activity, family friendly or not, other than "don't plan or do things, *other* than come to me on my terms at my home."

Myself, I would not respond to that by thinking "Mary, what a dear - she can't conceptualize initiating a group activity on her own other than issuing a summons, hey, why don't *I* suggest a picnic!"

[snowdragon]

   I still want to know why it's the group's responsibility to play family friendly activities? It seems to me that people post suggested activities to the group...why are the parents not responsible for suggesting the family friendly activities?  It sounds like Clarie ( or someone) proposed bowling this time, if that's not good for the  kid, the parents should be suggesting a park bbq so the kid can play while everyone else does what they normally do, or a visit to the museum for the community days or a trip to the zoo, or what ever  the kid likes that adults can do.  Really,  I am not sure how many people who don't have kids yet would know what a toddler likes to do.  And really the it seems like this is not what the group is about - and that should not have to change because one couple has a kid.
   Another thing is this child has a bedtime that is about the time many folks get out of work, so getting together for family friendly things might not work with their schedules and there's little room for compromising when it comes to work schedules.  Since the parents won't get a sitter, and seem uninterested in doing anything outside their house, I am unsure how much the group is supposed to give up for this couple.
   if it's the parent's choice to raise their kid how they want - then it's the groups choice and right to spend their free time how they want, one does not trump the rights of the the other and all the responsibility to change does not fall on the group.

[Sharnita]

   I still want to know why it's the group's responsibility to play family friendly activities? It seems to me that people post suggested activities to the group...why are the parents not responsible for suggesting the family friendly activities?  It sounds like Clarie ( or someone) proposed bowling this time, if that's not good for the  kid, the parents should be suggesting a park bbq so the kid can play while everyone else does what they normally do, or a visit to the museum for the community days or a trip to the zoo, or what ever  the kid likes that adults can do.  Really,  I am not sure how many people who don't have kids yet would know what a toddler likes to do.  And really the it seems like this is not what the group is about - and that should not have to change because one couple has a kid.
   Another thing is this child has a bedtime that is about the time many folks get out of work, so getting together for family friendly things might not work with their schedules and there's little room for compromising when it comes to work schedules.  Since the parents won't get a sitter, and seem uninterested in doing anything outside their house, I am unsure how much the group is supposed to give up for this couple.
   if it's the parent's choice to raise their kid how they want - then it's the groups choice and right to spend their free time how they want, one does not trump the rights of the the other and all the responsibility to change does not fall on the group.

I think that part of the problem is that everyone's work schedule calls for later hours then tend to work for a toddler. And I don't even think that they need to compromise.  Some people might want to if they thought it meant a lot to highly valued friends.so it was mentioned in that context.  Somebody else felt they had participated in family friendly gatherings that offered activities for the toddler.

[Yvaine]

Not really sure why you quoted that - that is exactly the basis for what I wrote.  They moved what they ususally do to M&M's apartment, got shsused because either they were too loud or used "bad" language.  That is pretty much my point.  They moved it 3 times so M&M could be there but I would not say that alone made the even family friendly and nothing in that post describes events for the tot.

Regarding the bolded, I definitely don't think they have the responsibility to plan activities for the baby to do. Especially since the baby is 18 months old--there are things that, say, a 10-year-old and an adult might both enjoy, but I don't think the whole group's activities need to revolve around the activities a toddler finds enjoyable.

If they want to compromise and do activities that the baby can tag along for--even if the baby can't really appreciate it yet--like a picnic or the zoo, that's great, though M&M will then need to compromise on their end and be willing to leave the house. But I don't think there's any obligation for the rest of the group to watch Barney or play with blocks.

[Sharnita]

Not really sure why you quoted that - that is exactly the basis for what I wrote.  They moved what they ususally do to M&M's apartment, got shsused because either they were too loud or used "bad" language.  That is pretty much my point.  They moved it 3 times so M&M could be there but I would not say that alone made the even family friendly and nothing in that post describes events for the tot.

Regarding the bolded, I definitely don't think they have the responsibility to plan activities for the baby to do. Especially since the baby is 18 months old--there are things that, say, a 10-year-old and an adult might both enjoy, but I don't think the whole group's activities need to revolve around the activities a toddler finds enjoyable.

If they want to compromise and do activities that the baby can tag along for--even if the baby can't really appreciate it yet--like a picnic or the zoo, that's great, though M&M will then need to compromise on their end and be willing to leave the house. But I don't think there's any obligation for the rest of the group to watch Barney or play with blocks.

No, but once a poster claimed that they did have activities for the toddler it seems reasonable to respond to that claim doesn't it?

[lowspark]

<snip>
For those who suggested child-friendly activities...that just isn't an option right now.  Most of us work white-collar jobs and some of us are in grad school so the only time we really have to hang out are Friday and Saturday nights usually after 7.  Not a lot of child-friendly places are open that late and after a very long day at work we all just want to sit around and unwind.

This post from Devix way back toward the beginning of the thread addresses the family-friendly-activity suggestions. Picnics in the park and other daytime activities are not what this group is about.

As far as M&M wishing to continue life "as normal" as alis suggested, I don't see that at all. What I see is M&M wishing for everyone else change their "normal" to suit M&M's "new normal". If they wanted to continue life as normal, even a little bit, they would at least try to compromise and find some way to attend the adult events - even if they alternated one of them going out and one staying home as was suggested earlier.

Even when my kids were little, there were times that I wanted to go out without them for some adult time. And they were my kids. So really, it's not all that weird that people who don't have kids don't want to spend much of their leisure/social time with other people's kids.

As for the stark divide between the groups, I think that's a pretty broad generalization. As an example, when my kids were babies/toddlers, my DH & I were very good friends with a couple who had no kids and never intended to have any. We still got together with them regularly. Sometimes we hung out at our house and sometimes we got a babysitter and went out. It was a compromise. And they were happy and willing to meet us half way. Of course, we didn't impose any unreasonable expectations on them when they were at our house. We all talked and laughed and did whatever, same as we always had.

And to clarify, that's just one example. There are plenty of child-free adults who are friends with adults who have kids and who keep their friendships. It's just a matter of both sides giving a little bit, and as has been clearly established by Devix, in this case, one side, M&M, are not willing to give at all.

[Yvaine]

Not really sure why you quoted that - that is exactly the basis for what I wrote.  They moved what they ususally do to M&M's apartment, got shsused because either they were too loud or used "bad" language.  That is pretty much my point.  They moved it 3 times so M&M could be there but I would not say that alone made the even family friendly and nothing in that post describes events for the tot.

Regarding the bolded, I definitely don't think they have the responsibility to plan activities for the baby to do. Especially since the baby is 18 months old--there are things that, say, a 10-year-old and an adult might both enjoy, but I don't think the whole group's activities need to revolve around the activities a toddler finds enjoyable.

If they want to compromise and do activities that the baby can tag along for--even if the baby can't really appreciate it yet--like a picnic or the zoo, that's great, though M&M will then need to compromise on their end and be willing to leave the house. But I don't think there's any obligation for the rest of the group to watch Barney or play with blocks.

No, but once a poster claimed that they did have activities for the toddler it seems reasonable to respond to that claim doesn't it?

OK, I'm not even sure what post you mean. I've only found posts saying they came up with activities that are OK for a toddler to attend, not activities specifically aimed at entertaining the toddler, so obviously I've missed a post somewhere.

[alis]

Problem too here is that there is not much that an 18 month old can really share with a group of childless adults (IMO) unless the toddler is particularly easygoing and will fall asleep anywhere or be content to sit. 18 month olds are at that rigid baby-toddler transition where they have the attention span of a flea and can go into WW2 meltdown when their routine is disrupted. It seems only reasonable that M&M participate in activities when they can get a babysitter if the group cannot be comfortable at their home during the toddler's sleep.

I am 9 months pregnant with #2 and have a 2.5 year old... when my first was 18 months old, it was pretty much a given that we got a babysitter or we just didn't hang out with the childless friends. They all had a later schedule (usually off work at 6-7pm which is a toddler bedtime) so it made no sense to expect toddler friendly plans. Besides, I wouldn't expect them to hang out during my toddler's 6-9am primetime for play, so fair enough.

M&M's major problem here is that they cannot seem get a grip on the change that their toddler has brought and seem to refuse to accept it. They should line up babysitting and if they can't, then no biggie, they can just watch a movie at home together instead. That's life with a toddler. We have one other set of friends with kids, but their kids are 12 & 13, so they have more liberty. It's a life stage.

[BeeGee01]

What alis said....it's perfect.

It's not up to a group of adults to change their routine if they don't want to.  I'm a mother of four, never in my wildest dreams would I have expected my friends way back when I had my oldest kids to change their routine for me. 

It's mind boggling to me that people think the group needs to come up with ideas for an 18 month old.  You can't fit a square peg into a round hole, and the parents are demanding the rest of the group keep trying to do so. 

I do think the one friend, Claire was it, had the perfect chance to explain to the parents what the problem was, but she blew it with her snide answer.  That's one of those times that while the thought was in her head, she should have used a filter before expressing it!

[alis]

When my son was 2-3 months old it was feasible to bring him out to a restaurant and leave him in a carseat at 7-9pm (which we did!), and I could just take a walk with him when fussy, but 18 months?? No way, there are a few things that really get more difficult as they get older and "childless" friendly activities were certainly one of them!

I agree they could go to a zoo or whatever but honestly I don't know many people who like going out for drinks at night who will be just as satisfied to spend $30 on a daypass to a zoo or something! lol. I know when *I* get a babysitter, I will spend that precious time/money on doing something fun and adult!!!