CrudeBoy and My Things

[The Lunchlady]

Dear Forum,

I need your collective wisdom regarding an issue my twin 11 year old girls are having at school. We are new to a small town, and this is their first year at this school. I have already spoke to both of their teachers and I left the meeting feeling that the matter would be resolved.

Today, after school I was called in for a meeting and was told that at least one of my kids seem to be the problem.  The teacher has dismissed the entire incident as puberty, and I fear has marked me as ‘That Parent.’.  I know my kids are not perfect; here at home they fight tooth and nail one minute and are best friends the next. I have never seen or heard tell of them acting that way in public, or had reports from past teachers that they were a problem.

The incidents have caused problems here at home, and have interfered with Thing1’s schoolwork. I’m starting to wonder if I’m making a mountain out of a mole hill, or if I should pursue the issue. I wrote the following, and would appreciate any thoughts on whether I should send it to both teachers, or the principal, or just file it away in case CrudeBoy escalates his creepiness.

I apologize in advance for the length, and will clarify as needed.

Cast of Characters:

Thing1 and Thing2 – T1 & T2 – my twins
QueenWannaBee –QWB – friend(?) of T2
CrudeBoy – CB – Boy in T1’s class who’s latched onto her

OneGirl
OtherGirl       The Generic Girls
AnotherGirl

Names, of course, have been changed.


Dear Mrs. Teacher:

I spoke with Thing2 and Thing1 about the situation on the playground today, and this is what I was told when I questioned each girl, in the other’s presence for verification:

Yesterday Wednesday, 26th of September, Thing1 was really happy with the group of QueenWannaBee, CrudeBoy, Thing2 and herself. At that day’s lunch, with QueenWannaBee, CrudeBoy, Thing1 and Thing2 at the lunch table, QWB said that Thing2 said she [Thing2] wanted Thing1 kicked out of the group. Thing1 got mad, picked up her lunch and went to a different table by herself. Right away OneGirl, OtherGirl and AnotherGirl came over and asked Thing1 what was wrong. T1 told them that QueenWannaBee said Thing2 said she [Thing2] wanted Thing1 out of the group for no reason. OneGirl said QWB is just really bossy, and that she [QWB] secretly hates you [Thing1].

As soon as T1 left the table T2 told QWB that she never said that. CrudeBoy then said that Thing2 made up a joke about Thing1 liking CrudeBoy. Thing2 denies doing so.

Later on the 26th, Thing1 and one of the three GenericGirls were playing on the playground. QWB and CrudeBoy wanted to talk to her. They told Thing1 that they really miss her and want her back in the group. So T1 was back in the group.

Today, Thursday, September 27, 2012, T1 ate lunch with the three GenericGirls. T2 ate with QWB and CrudeBoy. There were no issues and nothing said at lunch for either girl. At recess, T1 played with QWB, CB and T2. T2 then went in the building for class, and QWB and CB apologized to T1 for playing a mean joke on her the day before.

During Art, CB told T1 that he returned T2’s pom-pom pen to her that had gone missing from her back- pack the first week of school. T2 did not receive a pen from CB.

My Personal Experience and Views:

These are not the first instances I’ve heard of CB fabricating a story about my children; on the field trip, CB told me that T1 said T2 said that I [LunchLady] told T2 that CB bothers me. The only truth to that is that I was bothered on the trip, with his incessant chatter, vulgarisms, and requests to carry his personal belongings; his lagging and keeping T1 back, preventing her from enjoying the full experience. At the time I did not express my irritation to my children, or anyone else at the school. I am also bothered that he showed up un-invited to our home the week previous to the field trip.

There are too many she said/she saids and she said/you saids, none of which originate with T1 and T2. It appears that QWB and CB, either alone or in conjunction enjoy stirring up trouble between T2 and T1. Why this may be is not for me to say, but it is my husband’s and my wish, as we previously discussed, that T1 and T2 stay away from CrudeBoy. If QueenWannaBee is CrudeBoy’s confederate, we would have to advise our girls to stay away from her as well, and it will be explained to the Things why people who behave in the above manner are not friends that should be cultivated.

Best Regards,

The LunchLady

[tiff019]

Personally, I'd leave out the long descriptions of the 'he said, she said' drama going on and focus on what you said in your personal experiences. To me the narrative comes off as just one more layer of he said/she said - this time including you. The second half though is good - it's not the first time  you've heard of fabrication of stories, the two kids stirring up trouble between your girls, etc. Those are the real issues at hand and explaining them this way avoids emotion clouding the issue somewhat.

You may also consider having a chat with your girls to avoid these characters, and if that doesn't work then move on to the teacher intervention. At 11 it's time to begin teaching them to handle their battles, but they definitely still need the safety net of parent/teacher intervention if avoidance isn't working.

[WillyNilly]

I'm not a parent or a teacher, but my advice would be to just personal file that letter and definitely not send it to the school.

In the meantime I think you need to advise your girls on A) staying away from CB on their own and B) discuss appropriate ways to express anger/hurt/embarrassment (not sure what your kid did to get in trouble, but I'm assuming it was a result of the story you just related).

Beyond that, you need to let your kids navigate through the social jungle that is school.

[NyaChan]

Honestly, I think you should talk with your own girls if you do anything at all - staying out of it may be the better course of action really, other ehellions might be able to speak to that.  The boy and the other girls seem fairly normal for school at this age - there will always be kids like that. 

What I find troublesome is that your daughters don't stick up for each other and value the friendship of these two kids who don't treat either of them well.  Maybe a talk about how it is good to support each other might help or perhaps you could try pointing out that these "friends" aren't as nice as they may seem if they turn if they turn on the twins so easily.  I also think that the twin who has other "generic" girls to hang out with might want to consider making good friends with them rather than using them as backup for when she falls out of favor with the mean kids.

[The Lunchlady]

What I find troublesome is that your daughters don't stick up for each other and value the friendship of these two kids who don't treat either of them well.  Maybe a talk about how it is good to support each other might help or perhaps you could try pointing out that these "friends" aren't as nice as they may seem if they turn if they turn on the twins so easily.  I also think that the twin who has other "generic" girls to hang out with might want to consider making good friends with them rather than using them as backup for when she falls out of favor with the mean kids.

NyaChan, the lack of support is distressing, and it goes back to the first day of school. We encountered CreepyBoy on the playground before we knew he was CreepyBoy. I pushed all three of them on the merry go round but had to stop and tell the girls it was time to go when CB started kicking T2 on the rear. While T2 steers clear of him, T1 has a harder time due to being in the same classroom. He has quite the backstory which I think contributes to his behaviors and has socially marginalized him. I think T1 feels sorry for him, but she needs to realize that her loyalty should lie with her sister. 

T2 would love to hang out with the Generics but I think she's a little intimidated due to their popular girl status.

One thing I realize in writing about the situation is that if either one of my kids is a provocateur, it would be T1, due to her letting the others prevaricate and not standing up for her sister, not T2, as the teacher believes. T2 received a detention last week due to more of the same nonsense.

[Elizabeth]

I would not sent that letter. As I see it, QWB and CB aren't going to change - they seem to like stirring up drama. The only real solution is for your girls to stop hanging out with them. If your girls won't do that, then at the very least they need to stop believing anything that QWB and CB say. For 11 year old students, it is not up to the teacher to patrol who hags out with who, so I don't see what good the letter will do. (Unless the teacher is putting them together in group projects or something. Is that the case?)

If I were you, I'd sit Thing1 and Thing2 down and talk about what has been happening, asking them why QWB and CB might be acting the way that they were, if that was how they wanted to be treated, if they wanted to be a part of that drama, etc. Basically, I'd have a conversation with them and try to get them to see that these kids are not the best choices for friends. Encourage them to find new friends, maybe by exploring other interests. (I wouldn't try to forbid the girls from hanging out with anyone in this scenario. It's really hard for a parent to control who their kid associates with at school, and will turn the situation into a more contentious one rather than a learning opportunity.) Then, if Thing1 and 2 continue to hang with these kids and have problems, you can ask them why they're still hanging out with kids that treat them that way. Hopefully they'll catch on sooner or later.

Take all of this with a big grain of salt, as I'm expecting my first child so I have no experience - unless you count my own experience when I was 11!

I do have to say, I found this strange:

...One thing I realize in writing about the situation is that if either one of my kids is a provocateur, it would be T1, due to her letting the others prevaricate and not standing up for her sister, not T2, as the teacher believes. T2 received a detention last week due to more of the same nonsense.

The teacher gave T2 detention because of some sort of playground tiff? That seems way off to me. I can't imagine a teacher doing that, even for younger kids. If kids were talking/arguing/etc in class I could see giving a detention because of the disruption, but not because of the argument itself. I'm not doubting you, but I'm confused as to why the teacher would get involved. If you're similarly confused, it could be worth asking the teacher for clarification of what she considers to fall under her purview so that you know what to bring to her attention and what to handle at home. If the teacher really thinks it's her place to get in the middle of an argument between kids and punish who she sees as being in the wrong, maybe it would be appropriate to update the teacher on the situation... though I still tend to say leave her out of it. Even if she thinks it's her place to get in the middle of unpleasantness between kids, I don't and wouldn't want to encourage her to insert herself. 

[Ceallach]

I wouldn't send that email.   Keep it as a personal record, but don't send it.   Honestly, it comes across really high school, all the "he said, she said" and intricate details of who was sitting with whom or speaking with whom.   A lot of that is typical high school drama and I'm not sure what specifically you want the school to do about it.   For example, where you say you are upset about CB showing up at your house - what has that got to do with the school?  I honestly think you're venting in that email and that there is nothing to be gained by sending it the school.  I do think it will get you labelled as the trouble maker here which will not be good in the long run if you do want to make a more specific complaint.

Instead I would use the situation as a learning experience for your twins about communication, trust and respect.  CB can't cause trouble between them if they don't let him.  Same with the other girls.  If they verify information they're being told before getting upset about it.    If they refuse to be part of the silly mind games.    Learning to rise above that type of silly drama will serve them well throughout high school, I can attest to that.  My parents taught me how to handle situations maturely and deal with the nonsense that goes on without letting it affect me too deeply.  (Of course I had my own drama, all teenagers do!)   My parents also taught me to choose my friends wisely.   Like many teenagers I was attracted to the "cool kids" but soon realised some people had more substance to them than others.   It's a valuable life lesson!

[cheyne]

Please don't send the letter to the school.  I could hardly understand what was going on and had to read it twice.  The teacher will not take it seriously and I am afraid you will be labeled "That parent".

Your daughters are 11.  The pre-teen years can be tough ones with finding their own independence and their own way.  You can't make everything "right" for them, they must learn it on their own.  It's OK to sit and have a talk with them and find out what's going on in their lives, but you can't make them best buddies at school.  Even though they are twins they have their own personalities and will probably make separate friends.

Unless one of them is being bullied or physically harmed, I'd let them find out who they can trust and who they want to be friends with.  If CB is coming over and you don't want him at your home, you can politely tell him he is not welcome (the other ehellions can help you with phrasing).

[BC12]

But what actually has happened as a result of these playground/lunchroom tiffs? Surely the teachers aren't getting involved in playground politics? Did any of the children misbehave? Were they punished unfairly? It feels like you left out the important parts of the story.

You seem very focused on trying to prove which child was the most wrong, which, in the context you've put it here, does not matter. "Who is the most wrong" doesn't solve any problems.

If one of your girls misbehaved or had an outburst, then work on that with them. If they have made friends with kids who lie and manipulate, teach them how to deal with those people. It's a great lesson to learn early, because we all know how often these types of characters reoccur all throughout our lives. But to get the school involved more than they already are seems a bit hasty, unless it really is necessary due to something you haven't shared here.

Feel free, OP, to correct me if I've misunderstood any of this.

[Margo]

I agree with PPs saying not to send the letter. It's very confusing, and almost all of it is (at least) second hand. It also doesn't make clear what you want the school to do.

You say that you want your girls to stay away from CB and QWB but I can't imagine that the school would be willing to interfere with who the children paly with during breaks (unless one child is bullying the others), so that seems to me like something which you need to work on with your own daughters.

If you don't want your girls placed in a group with the other 2 during lessons then you can discussthat discrete issue with their teacher, but again, I think you need to accept that unless eaither ofthe girls is being bullied the teacher needs to have the freedom to arragne her class as she sees fit - whioch may include the childrne sometimes working together.

I think if you do take it further you need to be very open with the teacher about what, specifically, you feel that the school could do which they are not currently doing, and to be open to sugegstions from the school about what you can do, both to back up the school, and to support your girls. It is likely to help your girls if they get consistent feedback from their paretns and their teachers, so if the message that you give your daughters is that T1 should speak up striaght away if words are put into her mouth, and that she shoulkd be honest if asked about what she has said, then I think it is reasonable to tell the school that that is the approach you are takign ans ask whether they would give the same message, if a similar incident comes to their attention. If they say no, ask them what they would recommned. After all, they deal with children all the time, and they are closer to this specific situation than you are. They may have more insight into what is actually happening.

Also talk to your daughters - how much is this actually affecting them? Obviously if it is cuasing significant problem then that needs to be addressed, but that may involve them changing their behviaour, including lookingat how they interact with others. It sounds as though a lot of the problem you describe could only happen because T1 didn't immediately speak up and say "that's not true. I didn't say that" And that's an issue which you can address with T1.

[JenJay]

The other kids may be stinkers, but your kids are choosing to hang out with them and, therefore, getting caught up in the mess when the group misbehaves and gets in trouble. I've had to have the "You are responsible for your own choices, including who you hang out with." talk with my kids before. It's frustrating when they make friends with "mean kids" but the best you can do is give them lots of support and encouragement to back away from that group and find another.

There have been a couple of times I've contacted a teacher because one of my kids was being bothered in class or on the bus (after my child asked the student to stop, then asked the teacher/bus driver to intervene but the other child would wait for the adult to be preoccupied elsewhere). That said, my kids also know I expect them to do what they can to stay away from said child. For example, my son was being bothered by a boy on the bus so he approached the bus driver and spoke to her. She moved the other boy. A few days later DS is asking me if I'll talk to her again because he's still being bothered. I asked him "I thought he was moved?" and DS says "He was but there's an empty seat behind him now and sometimes I don't feel like sitting with Friend so I move over there and then he messes with me." Um what? I said "Bus Driver moved him to that seat BECAUSE he bothers kids who sit behind him, which you know. If you choose to move near him that is on YOU. Bus Driver and I have helped you as much as we can." I'm still  over that one. lol

[TootsNYC]

I think T1 feels sorry for him, but she needs to realize that her loyalty should lie with her sister. 

Or maybe T1 needs to realize that her loyalty should lie with *the person who isn't mean and doesn't tell lies,* even if they're not her sisters.

And when kids are 11, the teachers really don't have the resources or ability to "keep your kids away from other kids" on the playground and at lunch. JenJay has a really good point.

[TurtleDove]

Don't send the letter.  Focus your attention on teaching your kids to make good choices.  From your description, this is all on them.  For what it's worth, the portion about the "generic" backups angered me a little.  I would definitely stay out of the "small stuff" and simply work with your daughters on how to select and be good friends.  I don't see them having this skill at all from what you posted.

But most importantly, do NOT send the letter or tattle to the school -- you will almost definitely lose credibility and be labeled as a troublemaker, and it will reflect poorly on your kids.

[Eden]

But

Please don't send the letter to the school.  I could hardly understand what was going on and had to read it twice.  The teacher will not take it seriously and I am afraid you will be labeled "That parent".

This

But what actually has happened as a result of these playground/lunchroom tiffs? Surely the teachers aren't getting involved in playground politics? Did any of the children misbehave? Were they punished unfairly? It feels like you left out the important parts of the story.

And this.

I suggest not sending the letter at all. It mostly sounds like playground politics. But if you do, you need to scrap what you've got and write a new letter. What is your concern? What do you want from the teachers? Clear, simple, concisewhat actually has happened as a result of these playground/lunchroom tiffs? Surely the teachers aren't getting involved in playground politics? Did any of the children misbehave? Were they punished unfairly? It feels like you left out the important parts of the story.

[violinp]

As a twin, this stuff is normal. Middle school tends to be filled with drama, and this situation is no exception. Don't send the letter - focus on your daughters and how they behave, at school and towards each other. My sister and I were very much like your own twins, and we turned out fine - we're friends and we behave ourselves (mostly  ).

However, this stuff also strikes a chord with me, because my sister had a close friend who did not like me one bit, and I didn't like her because she didn't like me. For years, there was a status quo of that girl putting me down, saying mean things about me (including insinuations of mental illness), and me screaming at and saying incredibly cruel things to her. Cabbage (my sister) was stuck in the middle of all of that for years, and it really stressed her out. It seems like Thing2 is in the position (somewhat) that Cabbage was in, and I think it would help a lot if you could be there for her, especially, though you really need to be talking a lot with both your daughters. Thing1 is being mocked and taunted by her sister's friends (acquaintances?), and Thing2 feels like she has to choose between a good rel@tionship with her sister and having friends.

I know this is painful to hear, but the best thing you can do is be a listening ear and give your kids good advice. You can't make this situation better for them - they have to fix this on their own, and it may take years for it to finally resolve itself (it took until senior year of high school for the situation to change in our case). But, if they work to change it on their own, they will learn the importance of proper boundaries, what it means to bea good friend, and how to deal with difficult interpersonal situations first - hand.

Advise your daughters that if CB and QWB keep bothering them, they should tell a teacher - in my experience, teachers aren't allowed to do anything until the student tells them there is a problem. Note that I said your daughters should be talking to the teachers about this - it will keep them in control of the situation.