When your lack of empathy astounds the people around you. UPDATE P17

[Zilla]

Please read my posts.  I have not defended Stacey and have continually said I do NOT defend her.  I am addressing the broad statements that it is unempathetic to leave a running partner.  Again, I would not have handled this how Stacey did and for the eleventyseventh time I AM NOT DEFENDING STACEY.

In the OP, Kelly did NOT ask Stacey to stay and did NOT express that she was upset when Stacey said she was running ahead.  I would have handled it differently, but to assign totally awful motives to Stacey I think is not appropriate

Um you did defend her.  This is from your own post.  Now with this caveat, we don't know exactly what words were exchanged.  At the very least everyone in this post either said they would keep on running if Kelly didn't ask them to stay or would stay no matter what.   Because we know what happened afterwards is why we are judging her so harshly.  You keep on harping on the beginning of the story and not the entire story.  So everytime someone says that Stacey is a witch for leaving Kelly, this is knowing what happened next. (her telling the girls that Kelly quit)  Hence the "awful" motives. 

[Amara]

When I fractured my foot, Surianne, it was making a misstep while walking down some stairs. But yes, the swelling begins immediately and it is all too easy to see. Your foot and ankle really do get noticeably larger very fast. Not to mention it hurts!

[Iris]

Personally I think that the visibility of the swelling and the exact nature of the dialogue between Kelly and Stacy are both red herrings. I hate being fussed over when I am injured so I agree that it is not always wrong to leave someone who is injured. However, I think that maybe we could all agree that it is wrong to leave someone who is injured *without first making sure that they are okay* especially if it is a relatively deserted area. 

To me, that means stopping or jogging on the spot for the amount of time it takes them to assess their injuries, and in the case of an ankle injury stand up and check that they can bear their own weight/walk. Others may disagree but to me this seems the minimum. It is not enough for me to have the absence of Kelly saying "Please stay" as justification for Stacy jogging on - there really for proper consideration needs to have Stacy asking "Do you need help?" and getting a negative response before moving on. I would have thought that was universal so it is interesting to see all the different takes on this.

[Surianne]

and here we go again with the whole villianizing thing.

Yes, I choose my words carefully and I think that's the appropriate one here when discussing that Stacey should have magically been able to see Kelly's swelling, which in my experience is simply not the case with many injuries.

[ChiGirl]

Another hiker checking in here, and in my experience, when someone fractures an ankle on the trail you don't need to be a doctor to tell that they're injured.  You don't even need functioning eyeballs, because the sound of your fellow hiker saying "owowowow, ouch, ohmygod, bleep expletive bleep" is enough to alert you that something is wrong (leaving out the visual of the person falling down and holding their ankle).  Someone who is in a lot of pain, as Kelly is described, is going to show it.

And the first question is always, "can you put weight on it?"  Kelly could not walk.  Her injury was serious.  At the very least, Stacey should have stayed with her long enough to ascertain that Kelly could move under her own power.

I have been that injured hiker, and if my friends had responded with, "well, I'll just meet you back at the car" I would have been stunned, appalled, and seriously reconsidering the friendship.

[Zilla]

and here we go again with the whole villianizing thing.

Yes, I choose my words carefully and I think that's the appropriate one here when discussing that Stacey should have magically been able to see Kelly's swelling, which in my experience is simply not the case with many injuries.

I for one have had swelling and it was very quickly noticeable.  I have seen it on my mom's when she sprained her ankle and on a friend too. 

[still in va]

and here we go again with the whole villianizing thing.

Yes, I choose my words carefully and I think that's the appropriate one here when discussing that Stacey should have magically been able to see Kelly's swelling, which in my experience is simply not the case with many injuries.

I for one have had swelling and it was very quickly noticeable.  I have seen it on my mom's when she sprained her ankle and on a friend too.

that has been my experience as well. the last time i sprained an ankle, the ankle swelled over the top of my shoe within minutes.  swelling for a serious injury is pretty obvious and pretty fast, and doesn't require a trained medical eye. 

[Surianne]

and here we go again with the whole villianizing thing.

Yes, I choose my words carefully and I think that's the appropriate one here when discussing that Stacey should have magically been able to see Kelly's swelling, which in my experience is simply not the case with many injuries.

I for one have had swelling and it was very quickly noticeable.  I have seen it on my mom's when she sprained her ankle and on a friend too.

that has been my experience as well. the last time i sprained an ankle, the ankle swelled over the top of my shoe within minutes.  swelling for a serious injury is pretty obvious and pretty fast, and doesn't require a trained medical eye. 

Yes, I'm sure it differs based on the injury, and some swelling is obvious -- hence why our experiences are different, and why no one can automatically be expected to diagnose the severity of the injury based on swelling they may or may not be able to see. 

I am certainly not negating your experiences of being able to obviously see swelling, and similarly I hope that you will accept that I'm telling the truth about my own experiences.

[still in va]

and here we go again with the whole villianizing thing.

Yes, I choose my words carefully and I think that's the appropriate one here when discussing that Stacey should have magically been able to see Kelly's swelling, which in my experience is simply not the case with many injuries.

i don't think there was any magic that needed to be involved here.  from what has been related to us in the original post, Kelly's foot immediately began to swell.  a swollen foot is pretty darn obvious. 

i'm not villianizing Stacy.  i don't much care about Stacy, especially how she acted after the fact, which all of us seem to agree was pretty nasty.  but i'm also not going to just say, "oh poor Stacy, she didn't know Kelly was hurt."  Stacy knew enough to tell the other two runners that Kelly didn't feel like finishing.  she did NOT tell them, "oh, Kelly turned her foot about 5 miles back.  she's going to limp back to the cars and meet us there."  in other words, she didn't tell them the truth, which she knew.

[TurtleDove]

Please read my posts.  I have not defended Stacey and have continually said I do NOT defend her.  I am addressing the broad statements that it is unempathetic to leave a running partner.  Again, I would not have handled this how Stacey did and for the eleventyseventh time I AM NOT DEFENDING STACEY.

In the OP, Kelly did NOT ask Stacey to stay and did NOT express that she was upset when Stacey said she was running ahead. I would have handled it differently, but [b]to assign totally awful motives to Stacey I think is not appropriate[/b]

Um you did defend her.  This is from your own post.  Now with this caveat, we don't know exactly what words were exchanged.  At the very least everyone in this post either said they would keep on running if Kelly didn't ask them to stay or would stay no matter what.   Because we know what happened afterwards is why we are judging her so harshly.  You keep on harping on the beginning of the story and not the entire story.  So everytime someone says that Stacey is a witch for leaving Kelly, this is knowing what happened next. (her telling the girls that Kelly quit)  Hence the "awful" motives. 

There is a major difference between defending Stacey and my posts. Please stop with this. I believe my posts have been clear.

[still in va]

Please read my posts.  I have not defended Stacey and have continually said I do NOT defend her.  I am addressing the broad statements that it is unempathetic to leave a running partner.  Again, I would not have handled this how Stacey did and for the eleventyseventh time I AM NOT DEFENDING STACEY.

In the OP, Kelly did NOT ask Stacey to stay and did NOT express that she was upset when Stacey said she was running ahead. I would have handled it differently, but [b]to assign totally awful motives to Stacey I think is not appropriate[/b]

Um you did defend her.  This is from your own post.  Now with this caveat, we don't know exactly what words were exchanged.  At the very least everyone in this post either said they would keep on running if Kelly didn't ask them to stay or would stay no matter what.   Because we know what happened afterwards is why we are judging her so harshly.  You keep on harping on the beginning of the story and not the entire story.  So everytime someone says that Stacey is a witch for leaving Kelly, this is knowing what happened next. (her telling the girls that Kelly quit)  Hence the "awful" motives. 

There is a major difference between defending Stacey and my posts. Please stop with this. I believe my posts have been clear.

Turtle Dove, i think you've been very clear that you thought that Stacy's behavior after the fact was awful.

i also think that if i ever lost my mind and decided to start running, i would be very happy to have you as a running partner.

however, i think you are taking your feelings, and applying them to what Stacy did.  and you are determined that anyone who thinks she did something wrong in leaving is being mean to Stacy.  i think Stacy had a momentary lack of judgement by running off, which she already realized, because she immediately lied to the other two runners in the group by telling them that Kelly didn't feel like finishing.  she didn't say Kelly hurt her foot, she said Kelly wasn't feeling it and decided to stop (or words to that effect).

i'm sorry you are taking criticism of Stacy so personally.  i don't know why you would.  i've already said that from what you've posted here, i would take you as a running partner in an instant.  posters thinking that Stacy was wrong to leave Kelly are not accusing you of doing anything wrong.  i don't know why you think those of us who think that Stacy was wrong in how she conducted herself are mean.  or how that might reflect upon you.  it doesn't.  it reflects smack dab upon Stacy.

[Zilla]

Please read my posts.  I have not defended Stacey and have continually said I do NOT defend her.  I am addressing the broad statements that it is unempathetic to leave a running partner.  Again, I would not have handled this how Stacey did and for the eleventyseventh time I AM NOT DEFENDING STACEY.

In the OP, Kelly did NOT ask Stacey to stay and did NOT express that she was upset when Stacey said she was running ahead. I would have handled it differently, but [b]to assign totally awful motives to Stacey I think is not appropriate

Um you did defend her.  This is from your own post.  Now with this caveat, we don't know exactly what words were exchanged.  At the very least everyone in this post either said they would keep on running if Kelly didn't ask them to stay or would stay no matter what.   Because we know what happened afterwards is why we are judging her so harshly.  You keep on harping on the beginning of the story and not the entire story.  So everytime someone says that Stacey is a witch for leaving Kelly, this is knowing what happened next. (her telling the girls that Kelly quit)  Hence the "awful" motives. 

There is a major difference between defending Stacey and my posts. Please stop with this. I believe my posts have been clear.

I was merely pointing out both of your posts which contradicts each other.  Maybe you didn't realize it.  I like others don't think of you and Stacey as the same person.  You are actually the one that keeps saying that.  We are pointing out what Stacey did, not you.  I think like stillinva says that you are a bit too close to this.


Back to the OP, I too hope your husband talks to Eric soon and find out what Kelly ended up doing?  Staying friends with Stacey or not.

[TurtleDove]

Thanks, Zilla. I was responding to the posters who continualy challenged how I would handle various situations and implied that I think leaving an obviously injured runner is okay, which is not at all what any of my posts said. Those posters were personalizing the situation to me, in my opinion, very inappropriately.

[Wordgeek]

Alrighty then, thread re-closed while I sort out who needs gagging.

OP, if there's an update (hope, hope), pm me and I'll reopen the discussion. 

ETA thread opened.  Guilty parties - that is, the people who derailed the thread with their personal sniping back and forth - have been neutralized.  Useful, interesting discussion may now proceed.

Innocent bystanders, carry on. 

[GreenEyedHawk]

I haven't read the entire thread, so I'm not sure if this has been said or not.

I don't think the issue is with what happened on the trail.  Yes, Kelly was injured, but did not ask Stacy to stay with her, nor did she mention she was injured.  That's been established.

However, if I were Stacy and I found out later that Kelly was indeed injured, my response wouldn't be to be ANGRY at her.  I'd be apologetic for leaving her, and maybe I'd ask, "Why didn't you say something?  I wouldn't have gone on if I knew you were hurt!"

I wouldn't be trying to blow the entire thing off, I wouldn't be calling Kelly's husband to try and talk some sense into her, and I wouldn't be constantly defensive and trying to shift blame around to assuage my own guilty conscience, because deep down, I'd feel like a jerk for having left my injured friend.  Of course, these are all assumptions.  I am not Stacy.  I wasn't in the situation myself and I cannot speak for anyone else.

So, in short, I think the issue isn't so much what happened on the running path, so much as the way Stacy handled it afterward.