thank you, Dear Abby!

[Moray]

So you say the obese aren't their best selves, but that you don't care, because they aren't you or your SO, right? That's still not the same thing as saying "the concept of best self can only be applied to oneself". That's very clearly saying "I am judging all these obese people as 'worse' than their 'best selves', but I don't care."

So which is it? Judging others or not judging others?

I am not judging people I am not even thinking about.

OK, then your answer to me, when I asked you if I was my best self, really doesn't make sense, and neither does your statement that "Obese people are worthwhile people.  They are not their best selves when they are obese."

You're saying that you make these judgement about others, but it happens very rarely because you don't associate with fat people and therefore do not have to consider them.

[Bexx27]

If you conceive of your "best self" as physically fit and slim, that's great. But you don't get to tell me I am not my "best self" if I'm a fat couch potato.

What bothers me about the phrase "best self" is the sense of judging someone's overall quality. I don't believe I have a best self. I can be more or less happy, more or less healthy, more or less connected to others, etc., but I don't believe changes in my subjective well-being make me "better" or "worse." I certainly don't believe changes in superficial factors such as looks, weight, or income make someone better or worse. I'm not comfortable with judging and rating myself or others that way.

I didn't see that Fluer or anyone else said anything about you or your best self.  That is something for you to decide.

I think you are misunderstanding how I use the phrase (and see it used elsewhere).  It is not a judgment someone makes about another person.  It is a judgment someone makes about oneself.  Actually, not so much a judgment but an investment or attitude of "I will be the best I can be" or "I will make the best of this situation."

Exactly. And I mean no judgement on anyone, as I've said, I am overweight myself. I'm not going around 'hating on' people for not meeting my standards. I think that 'standards' are probably the wrong word, anyway. 'Criteria' would be better. Again, I'm not going around at men saying 'not you, not you, not you, oh, you are six four with a six pack, you'll do'. (Moot anyway, as I'm in a relationship) I just find that in my experiencecertain characteristics are linked with certain others which I find attractive. Others may have different ideas, and that is fine as well! I'm a little bemused as to why that seems to be causing so much offense and consternation.

As I said in the part of my post you deleted when you quoted it,

It's totally reasonable to want a mate whose lifestyle fits with yours. But there is a difference between judging someone's suitability to be your romantic partner and simply judging someone. Your choice of words -- "too much time slumped over the television" -- implies that you are doing the latter. How much is too much? Why is slumping assumed? What does "an upbeat, can-do attitude" have to do with fitness/activity level?

Fleur, do you really not see how the phrase "I would also not be impressed by someone who spent too much time slumped over the television" can be taken to mean that you would think poorly of someone who watches a lot of TV? If not, you are correct that we will just have to disagree.

TD, if "best self" is a concept you apply only to yourself, why the statement that your hypothetical weight-gaining SO would no longer be his "best self" and wouldn't like himself? How do you know unless you ask him? Since you can't ask him because he's hypothetical, it seems you're making an assumption based on stereotypes of overweight people/couch potatoes.

I admit I've never seen the term "best self" used by anyone else and I personally find it distasteful because it implies some objective standard of quality and seems to mean something very different from making the best of a situation or striving to be the best you can in some particular domain that you value. But you obviously have the right to judge yourself however you like. Applying it to others, which you have done in this thread and others, is what I find problematic and potentially offensive whether you mean it that way or not.

I didn't delete any of your post. But I will admit that watching a lot of TV would be a turnoff for me in a romantic partner, yes. I am really bemused as to why what I, TD, or anyone else finds desirable or necessary in a romantic partner is causing such offense. Is it the term 'best self?' I freely admit that I am not at my best at the moment, so if I'm judgeing anyone, it is myself. I actually don't go around thinking about these issues all that much, this is more academic.

Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I'm offended. I'm not offended and I'm enjoying the discussion.  In any case, I've said many times I have no problem with what you or the LW or anyone else finds desirable or necessary in a romantic partner. That's a matter of taste.

Here are 2 sentences for comparison:

1. "I will admit that watching a lot of TV would be a turnoff for me in a romantic partner."
2. "I would also not be impressed by someone who spent too much time slumped over the television."

These two statements do not have the same meaning. Neither do these two:

1. "I'm looking for a very attractive woman to accompany me through life."
2. "Most single men I know also put a premium on a woman's appearance. Why don't women understand this?"

I've been trying to explain what the difference is for me, but I guess it's not coming across clearly.

I'm glad I didn't cause any offense I wouldn't like to think people thought I was being rude or nasty. To compare the two sets of statements, I actually did mean the same by both my statements-by 'too impressed' I meant 'in a romantic partner' not  in general. That may be enhanced by the appaling quality of television in the UK
I'm totally with you on the second set of statements, though, and I agree that this man comes off as both arrogant and entitled.

Ah, sorry, I misunderstood that you were still talking about romantic partners.

[Fleur]

So you say the obese aren't their best selves, but that you don't care, because they aren't you or your SO, right? That's still not the same thing as saying "the concept of best self can only be applied to oneself". That's very clearly saying "I am judging all these obese people as 'worse' than their 'best selves', but I don't care."

So which is it? Judging others or not judging others?

I am not judging people I am not even thinking about.

OK, then your answer to me, when I asked you if I was my best self, really doesn't make sense, and neither does your statement that "Obese people are worthwhile people.  They are not their best selves when they are obese."

You're saying that you make these judgement about others, but it happens very rarely because you don't associate with fat people and therefore do not have to consider them.

I'm not following your logic here. TD said, in reponse to your question, that she couldn't tell if you were your best self or not: ergo, she isn't you so she isn't judging. I don't know where you're getting the last part of your post from at all, in fact I am completely lost.

[Moray]

So you say the obese aren't their best selves, but that you don't care, because they aren't you or your SO, right? That's still not the same thing as saying "the concept of best self can only be applied to oneself". That's very clearly saying "I am judging all these obese people as 'worse' than their 'best selves', but I don't care."

So which is it? Judging others or not judging others?

I am not judging people I am not even thinking about.

OK, then your answer to me, when I asked you if I was my best self, really doesn't make sense, and neither does your statement that "Obese people are worthwhile people.  They are not their best selves when they are obese."

You're saying that you make these judgement about others, but it happens very rarely because you don't associate with fat people and therefore do not have to consider them.

I'm not following your logic here. TD said, in reponse to your question, that she couldn't tell if you were your best self or not: ergo, she isn't you so she isn't judging. I don't know where you're getting the last part of your post from at all, in fact I am completely lost.

Fluer, I'm asking her to clarify her previously stated position on the issue (others who are obese are not their best selves), which is at odds with her current assertion that "best self" is purely individual.

[Ticia]

I think productive discussion has long since been left at the wayside. Thread closed while I wade through this mess.