Author Topic: Do you speak?  (Read 10990 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

WillyNilly

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 7490
  • Mmmmm, food
    • The World as I Taste It
Re: Do you speak?
« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2012, 05:35:04 PM »
What number of nasty things did I say about introverts?  I simply don't think its a valid excuse to not answer direct questions.  That's my opinion about all humans.  The OP implied that it was because the child is an introvert that he didn't answer (it apparently was not the case, but that how its was presented).  I thought rude behavior was being hidden behind the word introvert.

I think in most social situations it doesn't matter if you are introverted or extroverted - there are certain behaviors one should be able to participate in.  Of course one should, to the greatest extent possible tailor their social interactions around their comfort level, but in cases where they can't control the situation, they should be able to adjust themselves appropriately and not engage in antisocial or rude behavior and then explain it as being introverted or extroverted.

Please go look at those definitions.  You seem to be basing your replies on the idea that introverts are these rude people who refuse to socialize and that's quite simply not the case.

No that's my point.  I think many people engage in rudeness and then say its because they are introverts.  I personally think being introverted has little bearing on one's ability to engage politely, as hundreds of millions of introverts manage to converse politely, heck even make major public presentations and take on public leadership roles and all sorts of other interactions that go against their introverted grain.  I object to be using the labels as excuses, and I feel like I read it being done often on these boards.

Take2

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 284
Re: Do you speak?
« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2012, 05:35:29 PM »
I think that a parent has an obligation to smooth social interactions while a child is learning. As such, I would say to my child "the tour guide asked you a question," as a prompt to reply. If my child looked sheepish, I would ask if he needed the question repeated and help him ask if needed. Then if he was older than 6, I would probably remind him that it is polite to acknowledge when someone speaks...but I would wait until we were alone to do so.

I think this is fine if the guide hadn't followed up with "do you speak".  Once the rudeness has been delivered, I wouldn't respond with retaliatory rudeness of course, but I wouldn't gloss over it either.

I agree. But OP asked for ways to handle this in the future. And in the future, I would handle it before the guide got to the rude retort, right when the question was addressed to my child.

dawbs

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4448
Re: Do you speak?
« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2012, 05:36:22 PM »
learning how to not be caught 'flat footed' by unexpected questions/comments is a skill that takes time and practice.
And it's a skill that more than enough adults don't have.

Expecting a child, who hasn't had the amount of time/practice, who isn't independent, who is drilled with 'stranger danger' to never be caught off guard is absurd.
(and it's a catch 22.  A kid who comes up with an answer without taking the time to speak is going to get flack for 'a smart mouth'.  A kid who initiates is a 'chatterbox'.  This is another one of those situations where the expectations aren't nearly as simple as people would like to think--human interactions are nice binary choices)

The guide asking a question was likely appropriate.
The child failing to  answer immediately was not unspeakably rude but is something that can be worked on and should be something he is growing into and should get some good parent-coaching on.  It's a normal part of the growing process.  It's not what we aim for, but it's an age-appropriate stumble, not a 'fall on the face'/snakes in a restaurant rude.

The guide asking 'do you speak' was incredibly rude and was so far over the line that she couldn't jump up and down and see the line.  (this person has no way of knowing what the reason for not speaking was)

In the future, I'd probably not engage the guide where the child is--I think, all things considered, that increases, not decreases awkwardness.  I'd probably report to the guide's superior.

Tabby Uprising

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 451
Re: Do you speak?
« Reply #33 on: November 06, 2012, 05:39:22 PM »
I think that a parent has an obligation to smooth social interactions while a child is learning. As such, I would say to my child "the tour guide asked you a question," as a prompt to reply. If my child looked sheepish, I would ask if he needed the question repeated and help him ask if needed. Then if he was older than 6, I would probably remind him that it is polite to acknowledge when someone speaks...but I would wait until we were alone to do so.

I think this is fine if the guide hadn't followed up with "do you speak".  Once the rudeness has been delivered, I wouldn't respond with retaliatory rudeness of course, but I wouldn't gloss over it either.

I agree. But OP asked for ways to handle this in the future. And in the future, I would handle it before the guide got to the rude retort, right when the question was addressed to my child.

Ah, gotcha! I think your advice is great!

sourwolf

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 347
Re: Do you speak?
« Reply #34 on: November 06, 2012, 05:40:14 PM »
What number of nasty things did I say about introverts?  I simply don't think its a valid excuse to not answer direct questions.  That's my opinion about all humans.  The OP implied that it was because the child is an introvert that he didn't answer (it apparently was not the case, but that how its was presented).  I thought rude behavior was being hidden behind the word introvert.

I think in most social situations it doesn't matter if you are introverted or extroverted - there are certain behaviors one should be able to participate in.  Of course one should, to the greatest extent possible tailor their social interactions around their comfort level, but in cases where they can't control the situation, they should be able to adjust themselves appropriately and not engage in antisocial or rude behavior and then explain it as being introverted or extroverted.

Please go look at those definitions.  You seem to be basing your replies on the idea that introverts are these rude people who refuse to socialize and that's quite simply not the case.

No that's my point.  I think many people engage in rudeness and then say its because they are introverts.  I personally think being introverted has little bearing on one's ability to engage politely, as hundreds of millions of introverts manage to converse politely, heck even make major public presentations and take on public leadership roles and all sorts of other interactions that go against their introverted grain.  I object to be using the labels as excuses, and I feel like I read it being done often on these boards.

That's not at all how your previous posts came across.  However, if that's the case we are in agreement. Labels shouldn't be used as excuses.

Roe

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 6464
Re: Do you speak?
« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2012, 05:43:29 PM »
What number of nasty things did I say about introverts?  I simply don't think its a valid excuse to not answer direct questions.  That's my opinion about all humans.  The OP implied that it was because the child is an introvert that he didn't answer (it apparently was not the case, but that how its was presented).  I thought rude behavior was being hidden behind the word introvert.

I think in most social situations it doesn't matter if you are introverted or extroverted - there are certain behaviors one should be able to participate in.  Of course one should, to the greatest extent possible tailor their social interactions around their comfort level, but in cases where they can't control the situation, they should be able to adjust themselves appropriately and not engage in antisocial or rude behavior and then explain it as being introverted or extroverted.

Please go look at those definitions.  You seem to be basing your replies on the idea that introverts are these rude people who refuse to socialize and that's quite simply not the case.

No that's my point.  I think many people engage in rudeness and then say its because they are introverts.  I personally think being introverted has little bearing on one's ability to engage politely, as hundreds of millions of introverts manage to converse politely, heck even make major public presentations and take on public leadership roles and all sorts of other interactions that go against their introverted grain.  I object to be using the labels as excuses, and I feel like I read it being done often on these boards.

That's not at all how your previous posts came across.  However, if that's the case we are in agreement. Labels shouldn't be used as excuses.

I agree.  Labels should never be used as excuses.  I was trying to describe my son's personality, not trying to excuse it.  Sorry if it came off as if I was trying to use labels as an excuse, that wasn't my intent. 

Marisol

  • with a parasol.
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1917
Re: Do you speak?
« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2012, 05:44:53 PM »
I have to say while I knew them as vocabulary words, I never other then eHell have heard people refer to "introverts" and "extroverts" and it always chafes me on eHell, as I find their usage somewhat obnoxious. 


Really?  People around me use those words all the time.  I have heard them in conversation when I was as young as 10 and I regularly hear them used now in the work force.  In fact it comes up fairly often when we talk about ways to better work with others in the office setting.  I kind of hate it because I am sick of being classified as one or the other (I know what I am and I know what areas I need to improve on in order to work with others around me). 

For the record, I have never been called rude for being an extrovert or introvert, and I have never heard anyone use either as an excuse for being rude.  Usually I see rude people just being rude and not making excuses. 

Take2

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 284
Re: Do you speak?
« Reply #37 on: November 06, 2012, 05:50:09 PM »

Expecting a child, who hasn't had the amount of time/practice, who isn't independent, who is drilled with 'stranger danger' to never be caught off guard is absurd.
(and it's a catch 22.  A kid who comes up with an answer without taking the time to speak is going to get flack for 'a smart mouth'.  A kid who initiates is a 'chatterbox'.  This is another one of those situations where the expectations aren't nearly as simple as people would like to think--human interactions are nice binary choices)


I disagree. First, I think stranger danger is an absurd thing to teach a child. Certainly by the time a child is 9, that child should have a relatively nuanced view of strangers and appropriate interactions with strangers. Teaching fear is counter-productive, teach reasonable caution. My 4yo son could tell you that it is OK to respond to a tour guide's question while on a tour with your mother and yet not OK to climb in a car with some person who 'needs help looking for a puppy.'

Secondly, a child who answers a museum question without thinking will look like a child who didn't think the answer through, not a smart alec. Museum personnel, in my experience, will respond enthusiastically to even the most ridiculous answers as a 'good try." I use museum and other educational spaces as a place to grow my somewhat shy daughter's self confidence in speaking because I know she will not get negative feedback if she musters ANY response.

And have you seriously ever seen a child reprimanded or looked at unkindly for engaging a museum staff person with questions or comments? I have been to a lot of museums in a lot of places, both with my kids and without, and I have never seen anything close to that. What's more, my son is most definitely a "chatterbox," and while I am working to teach him to engage appropriately, I have never actually run into negative feedback for his enthusiastic talkativeness (from anyone but his sister, I mean). Is "chatterbox" an insult? I think of it as similar to "redhead," just an adjective that describes one of my kids.

Sophia

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 11782
  • xi
Re: Do you speak?
« Reply #38 on: November 06, 2012, 05:58:38 PM »
The last thing I would do would to tell stranger "He is reserved" or "He is an introvert" or anything of the kind.  Kids internalize these things and I think it would make him more reserved and more introverted.  I think the better plan would be to give your son some standard responses to give people himself. I'm not sure what those might be.  My Momma-bear side has been awakened on your son's behalf, and I can't think of anything polite. 

WillyNilly

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 7490
  • Mmmmm, food
    • The World as I Taste It
Re: Do you speak?
« Reply #39 on: November 06, 2012, 06:10:26 PM »
What number of nasty things did I say about introverts?  I simply don't think its a valid excuse to not answer direct questions.  That's my opinion about all humans.  The OP implied that it was because the child is an introvert that he didn't answer (it apparently was not the case, but that how its was presented).  I thought rude behavior was being hidden behind the word introvert.

I think in most social situations it doesn't matter if you are introverted or extroverted - there are certain behaviors one should be able to participate in.  Of course one should, to the greatest extent possible tailor their social interactions around their comfort level, but in cases where they can't control the situation, they should be able to adjust themselves appropriately and not engage in antisocial or rude behavior and then explain it as being introverted or extroverted.

Please go look at those definitions.  You seem to be basing your replies on the idea that introverts are these rude people who refuse to socialize and that's quite simply not the case.

No that's my point.  I think many people engage in rudeness and then say its because they are introverts.  I personally think being introverted has little bearing on one's ability to engage politely, as hundreds of millions of introverts manage to converse politely, heck even make major public presentations and take on public leadership roles and all sorts of other interactions that go against their introverted grain.  I object to be using the labels as excuses, and I feel like I read it being done often on these boards.

That's not at all how your previous posts came across.  However, if that's the case we are in agreement. Labels shouldn't be used as excuses.

I agree.  Labels should never be used as excuses.  I was trying to describe my son's personality, not trying to excuse it.  Sorry if it came off as if I was trying to use labels as an excuse, that wasn't my intent.

And I'm sorry if I got your rankles up.  I do think the question was at best odd, but much more likely rude or at least inappropriate of the woman to ask.  But I think the situation really had nothing to do with your son being introverted, but more to do with your son being otherwise engaged mentally and not hearing her.  Which you pretty much clarified.  Even an extrovert in that situation might not have realized they were being spoken to - so do you see why I read "introvert" as an excuse?  Because it doesn't really explain anything about the situation at hand.

But if he had heard, I do think, especially if he's an introvert, he should be taught to give an acknowledgement response (like "I'm not sure" or "I need to think about that" or even "hmmm" or at the bare minimum eye contact and nod).  I think as a parent that's part of your job.  Because as another poster pointed out her husband even once old enough to date, had people asking, behind his back, but none the less still, "does he speak [to you]?" Not responding in any way shape or form is not normal social behavior in that its noticeable to the point where people remember it and attribute it to a person even when the situation isn't occurring.  You have the opportunity as a mom to see that (perhaps?) happening with your kid, and not teaching him other behavior, IMO is to not give him a really powerful social tool.

None of that excuses the woman for her question, but sometimes other people's rudeness gives us each the opportunity to improve ourselves even if we weren't the rude ones. 

TootsNYC

  • A Pillar of the Forum
  • *****
  • Posts: 30822
Re: Do you speak?
« Reply #40 on: November 06, 2012, 06:29:58 PM »
To me, it doesn't matter if you are speaking to an adult, child, introvert, extrovert, or whatever.  If you ask someone a question and they don't respond (especially if they aren't even making eye contact with you when you initially addressed them), you can follow up with, "Excuse me? I wanted to know/ask..."

"Do you speak" is rude. You don't get a pass for being rude to people younger than you.

Bingo!

And I think the OP's response was actually "enough." I don't think she needs to pick a fight in the very moment. Just protect your child from unpleasantness (one reason why not to pick a fight or chastise someone like this), and from any sort of situation in which someone's negative judgment gets to make an impact (another reason why not to pick a fight or chastise someone like this).

You moved your child away from her--that's a HUGE message.

Yvaine

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 8929
Re: Do you speak?
« Reply #41 on: November 06, 2012, 06:32:04 PM »
I guess the question of what to do depends on what exactly was happening.  If he didn't realize he was being spoken to then I would discuss with him what happened and the fact that the woman was rude but that he can say something in the future like "I'm sorry. were you talking to me?" There will be times in the future he can use that with somebody who hasn't been rude.

I agree with this and I also think a museum is somewhere that a docent should expect that people might be lost in thought contemplating the items on display, and not necessarily tuned in to strangers' voices!

Acadianna

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1176
  • Remember -- no matter where you go, there you are.
    • My Dragons
Re: Do you speak?
« Reply #42 on: November 06, 2012, 07:00:20 PM »
I vote that the museum docent was rude, and especially so since her rudeness was directed at a child.  (Children do not have the social maturity and resources of adults in such situations -- they are at a disadvantage.)

We claim that we want children to "think before they speak" -- and then get snarky with them when they actually do it???

I will also say, as a former nature center docent of seven years, that this woman was apparently not very well trained.  As a docent (and also later as a teacher) I was always taught to ask my question, and then wait patiently for a response.  Some people take longer to process questions, and some take longer to formulate their answers.  What's the big hurry?

I can't think of any polite responses in this situation, so I'll just go with -- you handled it fine.

White Lotus

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 491
Re: Do you speak?
« Reply #43 on: November 06, 2012, 07:04:55 PM »
That docent was rude.  An adult or older child would know that "I beg your pardon.  Were you talking to me?" would be a mannered response. This boy is at an age when many children would be unsure, and perhaps he did not hear at all.  But this question was rudely addressed to the accompanying parent.  Evil Lotus would had snapped off something in Elsewherian, and would have considered being annoying, but though Evil Lotus thinks up these ill-mannered but amusing things to do, Actual Lotus doesn't do them.  I might have said, "I don't think my son heard you," in slightly chilly tones, followed by, "Come, Sprout, let's go look at the water lilies."

Wordgeek

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2047
Re: Do you speak?
« Reply #44 on: November 06, 2012, 07:54:16 PM »
It looks like the introvert-extrovert issue has been resolved. Thank you to both parties for being gracious enough to apologize and move on.