Author Topic: Do you speak?  (Read 11123 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

bloo

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1300
Re: Do you speak?
« Reply #45 on: November 06, 2012, 08:06:10 PM »
What number of nasty things did I say about introverts?  I simply don't think its a valid excuse to not answer direct questions.  That's my opinion about all humans.  The OP implied that it was because the child is an introvert that he didn't answer (it apparently was not the case, but that how its was presented).  I thought rude behavior was being hidden behind the word introvert.

I think in most social situations it doesn't matter if you are introverted or extroverted - there are certain behaviors one should be able to participate in.  Of course one should, to the greatest extent possible tailor their social interactions around their comfort level, but in cases where they can't control the situation, they should be able to adjust themselves appropriately and not engage in antisocial or rude behavior and then explain it as being introverted or extroverted.

Please go look at those definitions.  You seem to be basing your replies on the idea that introverts are these rude people who refuse to socialize and that's quite simply not the case.

No that's my point.  I think many people engage in rudeness and then say its because they are introverts.  I personally think being introverted has little bearing on one's ability to engage politely, as hundreds of millions of introverts manage to converse politely, heck even make major public presentations and take on public leadership roles and all sorts of other interactions that go against their introverted grain.  I object to be using the labels as excuses, and I feel like I read it being done often on these boards.

That's not at all how your previous posts came across.  However, if that's the case we are in agreement. Labels shouldn't be used as excuses.

I agree.  Labels should never be used as excuses.  I was trying to describe my son's personality, not trying to excuse it.  Sorry if it came off as if I was trying to use labels as an excuse, that wasn't my intent.

And I'm sorry if I got your rankles up.  I do think the question was at best odd, but much more likely rude or at least inappropriate of the woman to ask.  But I think the situation really had nothing to do with your son being introverted, but more to do with your son being otherwise engaged mentally and not hearing her.  Which you pretty much clarified.  Even an extrovert in that situation might not have realized they were being spoken to - so do you see why I read "introvert" as an excuse?  Because it doesn't really explain anything about the situation at hand.

But if he had heard, I do think, especially if he's an introvert, he should be taught to give an acknowledgement response (like "I'm not sure" or "I need to think about that" or even "hmmm" or at the bare minimum eye contact and nod).  I think as a parent that's part of your job.  Because as another poster pointed out her husband even once old enough to date, had people asking, behind his back, but none the less still, "does he speak [to you]?" Not responding in any way shape or form is not normal social behavior in that its noticeable to the point where people remember it and attribute it to a person even when the situation isn't occurring.  You have the opportunity as a mom to see that (perhaps?) happening with your kid, and not teaching him other behavior, IMO is to not give him a really powerful social tool.

None of that excuses the woman for her question, but sometimes other people's rudeness gives us each the opportunity to improve ourselves even if we weren't the rude ones.

WillyNilly I believe I caught the gist of what you were trying to say right off the bat. My son is, IMO, an extrovert but more than a couple of people have pulled me aside and mentioned the possibility of him being on the Asperger's or autism spectrum. We've never had him tested and we just work with him and he's great in social situations. He will talk to me later about conversations he's had and will ask how to do better because we've established this pattern from when he was younger. My daughter generally picks up on social cues better and models older ones without as many sit-down pow-wows on rules of social intercourse. But it's necessary with my son.

It was very frustrating at first for DH and me to deal with our son as persons would address him and ask interested questions and he's just stare at them or stare into space or look at the floor. We couldn't fathom why he was behaving this way but we felt it was our responsibility to help him and the person addressing him have a smooth, if short, convo. So we'd get his attention and say, "X is asking how you like roller-skating. You should look at her and answer." Then he would seem to snap out of a fog and would try his best to participate in a conversation. The more he gets to know someone the easier it is for him. He still has a very difficult time communicating his ideas but he's getting better.

Some people would get annoyed and not try hard after that to engage him (honestly I can't blame them as it irritated me and I'm his mom and I LOVE him) and others would be very patient and keep trying with him on different occasions. But the hard work and a good attitude on his part (he wants to have friends and do better socially) have really paid off.

So, Roe, I think the docent was quite rude but I would POD to the PP's that have suggested working with your son on some phrases that he can use to acknowledge someone's question or greeting while he's thinking or formulating what he'd like to say. 

cicero

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 17915
Re: Do you speak?
« Reply #46 on: November 07, 2012, 08:50:45 AM »
I think that the docent was rude. and really - if she works /volunteers in a museum, she should be trained that there are different types of people out there! while your son may be shy or an introvert, another person may be mentally challenged, or have Asperger's, or be deaf, or blind or not speak English, or... the docents should be trained differently.

Other than that, your son might need help in socializationing. You aren't *always* going to be around to step in, and at some point he needs to be able to do this on his own. my son has been diagnosed with Asperger's (though he was first diagnosed with ADHD, then undiagnosed with ADHD and diagnosed with emotional problems, then Asperger's so i don't really know...). He has a slight speech impairment and it's sometimes hard to understand him. so people (like my father) will look at ME to "translate". seriously? my son is 26 - i trained my son to pick up on those cues and my son repeats what he said slowly. or i'll tell my father - he's right there; ask him.

            Created by MyFitnessPal.com - Free Weight Loss Tools

BeagleMommy

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3231
Re: Do you speak?
« Reply #47 on: November 07, 2012, 12:34:30 PM »
Roe, you've just described my DS to a T.  He's very reserved.  At one point we had him tested to see if he was on the autism spectrum.  What we discovered is that DS mulls things over in his brain to ensure he's giving either the "right' answer or is sure about his opinion.  Over the years we've managed to get him to say something like "Let me think about that" so people know he's heard them.

I also have a 30-year-old godson who has Asperger's.  He is non-verbal with strangers.  There's no way people would know this by looking at him.

The docent was extremely rude.  Asking a 9-year-old that type of question (or anyone, really) shows a lack of training on her part.  I think Roe would have been fine saying something like "Excuse me, don't speak to my child like that" and walking away.

artk2002

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 13060
    • The Delian's Commonwealth
Re: Do you speak?
« Reply #48 on: November 07, 2012, 02:29:15 PM »
The woman was extremely rude.

I give tours at our middle school for propspective familes. Sometimes I have adults but frequently I'll have groups of kids. On the whole, the kids are much more quiet than the adults. The kids may be overwhelmed by the whole process (think about applying to college, but you're 10 or 11yo) or meeting new people or being in a new place. Or just being shy. I wouldn't call a kid rude unless they did something active like deliberately turn away from me. If they don't respond, I'm more likely to chalk it up to a very busy environment with lots of sensory input (much like a museum, hmmmm.)

It's my job to bring the kids out of their shells. It's a delicate balance between prodding and giving them space. It starts with making sure that I have their attention and asking them questions about themselves -- find a kid's interest and sometimes it's hard to get them to stop talking. "Do you talk?" would guarantee that I lose them for the rest of the tour.

I guess my vote is not just "rude" but "not very competent." As a docent, I'd be thrilled that a kid was so engrossed in the exhibit that he didn't notice me. The point of the place is the exhibit, not the docent.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bow lines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover. -Mark Twain

Yvaine

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 9015
Re: Do you speak?
« Reply #49 on: November 07, 2012, 02:43:59 PM »
As a docent, I'd be thrilled that a kid was so engrossed in the exhibit that he didn't notice me. The point of the place is the exhibit, not the docent.

This this this this this!

If I'm in a museum, I'm probably either engrossed in looking at the items or reading the explanation of the items. I'd actually hope that a docent would be quiet and let people contemplate the items unless approached with a question, or unless it's a guided tour where a live person explaining the items is part of the content.

zyrs

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2037
  • spiffily male.
Re: Do you speak?
« Reply #50 on: November 08, 2012, 12:07:13 AM »
In my opinion the person was quite rude to your son.  I can only imagine what might happen if they ever interact with a deaf or mute person.

I think you handled it well.  In the future you might mention it to a supervisor.

 

snowdragon

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2200
Re: Do you speak?
« Reply #51 on: November 08, 2012, 12:16:55 AM »
In my opinion the person was quite rude to your son. I can only imagine what might happen if they ever interact with a deaf or mute person.

I think you handled it well.  In the future you might mention it to a supervisor.

 

I was thinking the same thing. I can't think of a polite way to ask even if you suspect they might not be capable. The only time I can think of that this is acceptable is if you suspect someone is having a stroke and need to assess that possibility - even then there are better ways to word it. sigh.

HonorH

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2977
Re: Do you speak?
« Reply #52 on: November 08, 2012, 01:04:24 AM »
The woman was extremely rude.

I give tours at our middle school for propspective familes. Sometimes I have adults but frequently I'll have groups of kids. On the whole, the kids are much more quiet than the adults. The kids may be overwhelmed by the whole process (think about applying to college, but you're 10 or 11yo) or meeting new people or being in a new place. Or just being shy. I wouldn't call a kid rude unless they did something active like deliberately turn away from me. If they don't respond, I'm more likely to chalk it up to a very busy environment with lots of sensory input (much like a museum, hmmmm.)

It's my job to bring the kids out of their shells. It's a delicate balance between prodding and giving them space. It starts with making sure that I have their attention and asking them questions about themselves -- find a kid's interest and sometimes it's hard to get them to stop talking. "Do you talk?" would guarantee that I lose them for the rest of the tour.

I guess my vote is not just "rude" but "not very competent." As a docent, I'd be thrilled that a kid was so engrossed in the exhibit that he didn't notice me. The point of the place is the exhibit, not the docent.

Totally podding Art on this. As a teacher, I've done more than my share of time with middle-schoolers and other tweens. Yeah, there are plenty of noisy, outgoing ones. In my experience, though, they're intimidated much more easily than you'd think. An unfamiliar environment with strange adults asking them questions they might not know the answers to? That's a recipe for shutdown. Or just freezing. It was one of the hardest lessons for me to learn when to back off and give a kid space. The docent did not do well.
William wondered why he always disliked people who said "no offense meant." Maybe it was because they found it easier to say "no offense meant" than actually to refrain from giving offense.

--Terry Pratchett, The Truth

Roe

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 6473
Re: Do you speak?
« Reply #53 on: November 09, 2012, 07:18:35 AM »
As a docent, I'd be thrilled that a kid was so engrossed in the exhibit that he didn't notice me. The point of the place is the exhibit, not the docent.

This this this this this!

If I'm in a museum, I'm probably either engrossed in looking at the items or reading the explanation of the items. I'd actually hope that a docent would be quiet and let people contemplate the items unless approached with a question, or unless it's a guided tour where a live person explaining the items is part of the content.

Yes, esp when the exhibit had to do with his favorite president.  :)  It can take my boys hours to go through one exhibit.  They want to read everything.  Me, I can take a second or two to look at it and move on.  This is why it's best when my DH goes along.  I can head to the coffee shop while they absorb everything.  Ha!  ;)

WillyNilly, no problem...no rankles up here. I just wanted to be sure and describe the situation as close as to how it happened 'cause I know sometimes on eHell things or descriptions tend to take on a life of their own and I wanted to be sure and keep it to my situation as much as possible. 

I have talked to him about phrasing but I think it might be time to have a 'refresher' course.  Thank you to all who gave advice and possible phrasing.  I am going to use them. 

My father is visiting from out of state this week and my son was pretty quiet with him the first two days but now...he's been pretty chatty (not like him) and pretty hyper (again, not like him).  But even with his own grandfather, it took him a couple of days to get comfortable.  Sometimes, it's so hard for me to understand his personality because I'm the complete opposite.  I love being in a group of people and chatting.  Could do it for hours.  DH and DS, otoh, aren't wired that way. 

Only now, am I starting to really appreciate my son's personality.  He's so unique, creative, smart and oh so funny!  I just wish others had an opportunity to see that side of him, instead of only the quiet, reserved kid.   

joraemi

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3798
  • Crystal of Enchantment - my current project
Re: Do you speak?
« Reply #54 on: November 09, 2012, 07:54:31 AM »
The more I think about the question, "Do you speak?", I keep thinking - if the answer is "NO.", how did she expect to get that answer or have the child respond? 

I think the way she phrased it really put the kid "on the spot".  As a parent with a child that also doesn't talk much, I think, "She is kind of quiet." is sufficient.  As a stranger you don't have a clue what the multitude of reasons could be for a child not speaking to you/answering your question. *Especially* a child.


**as a side note I'd like to think we can give the docent the benefit of the doubt that they thought they were being helpful/appropriate**




Courage is the price life  exacts for granting peace.  ~Amelia Earhart~

Roe

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 6473
Re: Do you speak?
« Reply #55 on: November 09, 2012, 08:47:51 AM »

**as a side note I'd like to think we can give the docent the benefit of the doubt that they thought they were being helpful/appropriate**

I'm sorry but that's going to be asking too much from me.  I heard the tone and she wasn't trying to be helpful.  She was being plain ole' mean. 

I understand how people in an online forum can give her the benefit of the doubt, I get it.  But me, I just can't. 

Now, days later, her tone still irritates me.  Granted, no one knows how annoyed I was by her as I ignored it and have only mentioned it on eHell but I'm seriously considering sending an email to the organization. 

Sophia

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 11813
  • xi
Re: Do you speak?
« Reply #56 on: November 09, 2012, 09:07:40 AM »
The more I think about the question, "Do you speak?", I keep thinking - if the answer is "NO.", how did she expect to get that answer or have the child respond? 

I think the way she phrased it really put the kid "on the spot".  As a parent with a child that also doesn't talk much, I think, "She is kind of quiet." is sufficient.  As a stranger you don't have a clue what the multitude of reasons could be for a child not speaking to you/answering your question. *Especially* a child.


**as a side note I'd like to think we can give the docent the benefit of the doubt that they thought they were being helpful/appropriate**

"No" would be a funny response, though.

bloo

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1300
Re: Do you speak?
« Reply #57 on: November 09, 2012, 09:14:26 AM »

**as a side note I'd like to think we can give the docent the benefit of the doubt that they thought they were being helpful/appropriate**

I'm sorry but that's going to be asking too much from me.  I heard the tone and she wasn't trying to be helpful.  She was being plain ole' mean. 

I understand how people in an online forum can give her the benefit of the doubt, I get it.  But me, I just can't. 

Now, days later, her tone still irritates me.  Granted, no one knows how annoyed I was by her as I ignored it and have only mentioned it on eHell but I'm seriously considering sending an email to the organization.

Have to agree with Roe here. There's no positive slant I can put on this question (in my mind) that makes the question 'Do you speak?' come across kindly. At best, it's snarky and condescending. At worst, it's downright nasty.

I don't even need to be there to establish 'tone'.

Tabby Uprising

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 451
Re: Do you speak?
« Reply #58 on: November 09, 2012, 09:39:44 AM »

**as a side note I'd like to think we can give the docent the benefit of the doubt that they thought they were being helpful/appropriate**

I'm sorry but that's going to be asking too much from me.  I heard the tone and she wasn't trying to be helpful.  She was being plain ole' mean. 

I understand how people in an online forum can give her the benefit of the doubt, I get it.  But me, I just can't. 

Now, days later, her tone still irritates me.  Granted, no one knows how annoyed I was by her as I ignored it and have only mentioned it on eHell but I'm seriously considering sending an email to the organization.

Have to agree with Roe here. There's no positive slant I can put on this question (in my mind) that makes the question 'Do you speak?' come across kindly. At best, it's snarky and condescending. At worst, it's downright nasty.

I don't even need to be there to establish 'tone'.

I'm with you, bloo!  And I just can't get past the idea that if the docent (or staff member) had said this to an adult and not a child, no one would be suggesting responding back with a sweet "I'm just quiet/I didn't hear you at first, my apologies etc".

I don't give her the benefit of the doubt because I can't imagine she would say this to an adult.

betty

  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 79
Re: Do you speak?
« Reply #59 on: November 09, 2012, 11:40:08 AM »
Days later and this one is still making me mad. I know that others have responded, but I need to get this out of my system.

The docent was rude. Rude rude rude. When she didn't get an answer she should have either answered the question herself or asked someone else.

I was a very shy, quiet child. Someone putting me on the spot by asking a question and then asking "do you speak" when I didn't answer right away (for whatever reason) would have bothered me a lot. And made speaking in public even more difficult than it already was.

My nephew has autism. He is non-verbal. He looks like every other kid but no, he doesn't speak.

I hope I'll stop being so angry now that I've added my 2 cents to the thread!