Giving PA people what they "want" (Stories!) UPDATE P27

[weeblewobble]

Um ... I'm kind of on your mom's side here.

Even without the backstory I presume was present, I'm not on Mom's side. If she's dumb enough to "punish" a kid by making them stop a hated chore and start doing something they want to do, she's on her own.

While I don't agree with slamming the dishes around, I can understand why wonderfullyanonymous felt that way.  As the oldest sister in a family with a much coddled baby brother, I was frequently told to clean up brother's messes because he "couldn't'" do it himself.  Or would possible make a worse mess in the process of "trying" to clean up after himself.  (He was inept at cleaning. Inept like a fox.) 

I can remember many many occasions when my younger sister and I spent a good chunk of time meticulously cleaning our room, only to be told we weren't done yet. Brother "couldn't clean up his room" because it was too messy.  He claimed that it wasn't fair that we had help (each other) while he was all alone.  Pointing out that he'd made the mess alone just made my mom angry that we were talking back.  So we would clean his room while he laid on his bed and "directed" us by telling us what to keep and throw away.  If we complained about him lying around and not helping, Mom would yell to "just get it done!"

My sister and I* cleaned up the kitchen after dinner every night from the time I was 10. Was brother ever required to help? No.  When I went away to college, and sister was left doing the dishes alone every night, was brother required to help?  NO.

My sister and I did the laundry and ironing.  Brother was never required to help. When I went away to college, was brother required to help while sister was washing clothes HE wore to school every day?  NO.  Did brother wake her up one Saturday morning (her one day to sleep in) to call her a "stupid lazy lump" because he didn't have any clean underwear for some trip he was leaving for in ten minutes? YES. Did my sister get in trouble for jumping out of bed and punching brother in the face?  YES.

To this day, my parents don't understand why:

1) Brother is such a slob.

2) Why sister was OVERJOYED to leave for college, so she could scratch household duties from her to-do list, leaving just homework, extracurricular activities and her job on the campus.

3) We don't want to spend much time with brother, who hasn't really changed.

*My mom did plenty of work around the house and the cooking.  But she also worked full-time and was in the middle of a very difficult graduate program for most of my teen years.  And she wanted sister and I learn to contribute to the household.  I honestly think it just took too much effort to get brother to help, so she gave up and put the workload on us.

[ica171]

If my kid tried to rationally argue with me first (aka "I didn't even live here this week, I spent 80 hours on schoolwork") and I tried to force her to clean up after her sibs, I'd have to take her dish slamming with some expectation. Especially if I had threatened to give her what she wanted if she did it again.

Now, if the chore were to wash the laundry, and a portion of the laundry were hers, I'd have to be on the mom's side.

I have to agree. I'll be completely honest here and say that a big part of the reason that my son's usual daily chore is dishes is because I don't want to do three loads a day myself, so I make him do one. When I read that post, that seemed to be the same situation to me--Mom doesn't want to do the dishes, oh look, here's a child to do them for her.

[Margo]

A professional acquaintance of mine once tired to give a (not very P)A person what they wanted...
I was working as a very junior lawyer, and was at court with a client and a more senior lawyer.
Client was very difficult - he would ignore the advice he was given, argue with us about what the law was, and, on a regular basis, threaten to 'sack' us as his lawyers.

On this occasion, after having followed him out of the building once to persuade him to come back after he had waltzed off in a huff. He again threatened to sack us, at which point my colleague snapped.

"OK, Mr X. No problem.Here's a  notice of acting in person to show you'll be acting for yourself, and we'll ask for that to be handed into court for the Judge. All you need to do is sign here, and we can be off and let you get on with things."

There was a long pause, and he then asked us to continue to act. It cured him of threatening to sack us, at least for a while. Unfortunately it didn't stop him complaining at my inability to change the entire English Legal system to suit his convenience, and I never was able to persuade him to instruct someone else.

It does amuse me how many terrible clients seem to believe that the Worst Possible Threat they can make is to say they'll go elsewhere. I think every client I have ever had who has threatened that has been one where my (honest) response would be "What an excellent idea. Would you like me to call [new lawyer] to make an appointment for you?" (I once managed to kill two birds with one stone by referring a very difficult and unpleasant client on to a very difficult and unpleanant lawyer in Next Town)

[Piratelvr1121]

When my kids say "But I didn't make that mess!" It irritates me. As a sahm/housewife, it's a regular part of my day to clean up messes that other people make.  If I only cleaned up messes I made, our house would be a pigsty.   So when I ask my older two boys to pitch in and help me to clean up a common room of the house such as the room their computer is in, or the living room and they say "But I didn't make that mess, why should I have to clean it up?", they don't get sent to their room, they get more work to do. 

They have chores anyway that involve cleaning up messes others make, such as doing dishes and scooping litter boxes.  The youngest doesn't have chores yet, being almost 16 months, but when prompted he will pick up his toys and put them in a container. 

[bloo]

When my kids say "But I didn't make that mess!" It irritates me. As a sahm/housewife, it's a regular part of my day to clean up messes that other people make.  If I only cleaned up messes I made, our house would be a pigsty.   So when I ask my older two boys to pitch in and help me to clean up a common room of the house such as the room their computer is in, or the living room and they say "But I didn't make that mess, why should I have to clean it up?", they don't get sent to their room, they get more work to do. 

They have chores anyway that involve cleaning up messes others make, such as doing dishes and scooping litter boxes.  The youngest doesn't have chores yet, being almost 16 months, but when prompted he will pick up his toys and put them in a container.

This is exactly the way I feel. I'm a WAHM (work-at-home-mom) and it really aggravates me to hear that too!

Since Mom & Pop are funding bandcamp or whatever, everyone should pitch in and help. When my kids have a special activity that  takes them away from their regularly scheduled chores, DH & I roll up our sleeves and do their jobs because...well, they still have to get done. So I will not tolerate "I didn't make that mess!"

I totally understand a kid feeling aggravated at having to clean up someone else's mess when their tired from a long day, too, but it's good training for adulthood when you find yourself cleaning up after other people either at home, work, the park or whatever.

Note to Weeble: I totally understand your sister's Low Ted Tolerance! That was beyond-the-pale not fair to you and sis.

[MommyPenguin]

My technique for a kid whining about a chore they're asked to do (or taking forever to do it, etc.), is that they get another chore to do after they finish that one.  So they have to finish their current chore and then do another.  Originally this was just for whining, but my oldest is now assigned to fold a basket of kid laundry sometimes.  She'll take about ten minutes to fold a single item if she isn't nudged along.  So I set a timer for 20 minutes.  If she finishes in 20 minutes, she's done.  If she doesn't, she still needs to finish that load, and then she has another load to do after that.  It works *great*.  Chore gets done fast, and then she can get on with other things.  If she dawdles, oh well, at least more laundry gets folded.  (She isn't able to keep up with kid laundry on her own, so I do some of the loads, so there's always a second load available).  I think it's a lot more effective than being sent to one's room. 

However, my youngest is only 2.5 and a little unclear on cleaning up after herself.  If she does something like dump out a box of crayons and then not clean it up, she'll go in a timeout, and I'll bring her the box of crayons and scoop the crayons up and put them on the floor next to her, and she's in a timeout until she gets it done.  Yes, moving the crayons and the box to the timeout corner is a little silly, as I could just put them in the box, but I'm trying to teach her to clean up after herself, so that she doesn't end up being the little brother in weeblewobble's story who doesn't know how to clean up after himself because his two big sisters do it for him.

[Piratelvr1121]

That is a great idea, and I plan to utilize that one, as my boys seem to have the same mentality that if they either a) do the chore quickly and poorly or b) slowly and poorly, they won't be asked to do it again.  My grandmother used to say "Lazy people have double work" and that's a fine way to make that point!   Whenever our boys try to rush through and do things halfway, they are sent back to do it again as many times as it takes to get the job done properly.

I like the idea with your toddler too so that she also gets the idea that well done chores done in a reasonable amount of time have their own rewards.

[snowflake]

When my kids say "But I didn't make that mess!" It irritates me. As a sahm/housewife, it's a regular part of my day to clean up messes that other people make.  If I only cleaned up messes I made, our house would be a pigsty.   So when I ask my older two boys to pitch in and help me to clean up a common room of the house such as the room their computer is in, or the living room and they say "But I didn't make that mess, why should I have to clean it up?", they don't get sent to their room, they get more work to do. 

They have chores anyway that involve cleaning up messes others make, such as doing dishes and scooping litter boxes.  The youngest doesn't have chores yet, being almost 16 months, but when prompted he will pick up his toys and put them in a container.

Part of parceling out chores is that everyone picks up everyone else's mess.  I think it's a great thing that you are teaching your kids that.

I once lived in a shared house.  The rule was "Pick up your own mess."  I think it was a fabulous fail because my roommates were always thinking that they didn't put the soap scum on the bathtub or the grime on the stove.  So I regularly got, "This mess can't be mine because I clean up after myself!"

That house was a study in PA. "Well if you LIKE living like this it's YOUR choice." or "I won't tell you what to do, because I guess you like being a slob."  The worst was, "Did your mother not teach you..."  Which was awful because my mother didn't actually teach me.  Um, why yes, according to CPS I was living in low-level negligence on and off in my childhood.  But you know?  Talking about someone's family of origin circumstances as an insult is pretty low because it's not like they can help it!

Now I won't pretend I was Ms. Neat.  But I did some deep cleaning and never left anything out for more than a few hours.  The roommates would throw a fit if I dropped my backpack on the couch while I made myself a sandwich.  But while they "picked up" they never did a bit of deep cleaning.

I finally stopped cleaning the bathroom, sweeping off the porch, cleaning the oven and doing other things that I had been used to doing at home.  I just picked up my stuff.  That's it.  The shower got really, really, really, really gross.  I just smiled when they got squicked out.

Remember that low-level negligence?  I can tolerate really, really gross if I try.

[Roodabega]

I'm mostly on Wonderfullyanonymous' side on this one.  It's all well and good if you want kids to participate in the daily household chores, but you better be sure it's equitable across all of them.  Having someone come home after being gone and having them clean up messes created by someone else doesn't prepare your child for anything but resentment.  Especially if, as it sounds, the siblings don't have the same expectation.

[rose red]

I'm mostly on Wonderfullyanonymous' side on this one.  It's all well and good if you want kids to participate in the daily household chores, but you better be sure it's equitable across all of them.  Having someone come home after being gone and having them clean up messes created by someone else doesn't prepare your child for anything but resentment.  Especially if, as it sounds, the siblings don't have the same expectation.

This is what I'm thinking with her "par for the course" comment. 

[alkira6]

I'm mostly on Wonderfullyanonymous' side on this one.  It's all well and good if you want kids to participate in the daily household chores, but you better be sure it's equitable across all of them.  Having someone come home after being gone and having them clean up messes created by someone else doesn't prepare your child for anything but resentment.  Especially if, as it sounds, the siblings don't have the same expectation.

This is what I'm thinking with her "par for the course" comment.

Yeah, my example is coming home from a trip to Wshington DC, getting picked up at the airport and being told that I need to do laundry and change the sheets on all the beds.  I've been gone 10 days mom, can I at least put my bags down first?

[Piratelvr1121]

Wow that is extreme.  Usually when we're just getting home from somewhere, like visiting family or something, DH and I do expect the children to help carry stuff in but once that's done they're allowed to relax. 

I wouldn't expect them to jump on chores if they'd been away for a week or so.  Just carry their suitcase in.

[alkira6]

Wow that is extreme.  Usually when we're just getting home from somewhere, like visiting family or something, DH and I do expect the children to help carry stuff in but once that's done they're allowed to relax. 

I wouldn't expect them to jump on chores if they'd been away for a week or so.  Just carry their suitcase in.

That is my one extreme example, but I was not surprised by it.  My older sister was excused from a lot because she had band and tutoring and my younger sister was excused because of who knows why.  Somehow my activities and job were never an excuse.

[weeblewobble]

Note to Weeble: I totally understand your sister's Low Ted Tolerance! That was beyond-the-pale not fair to you and sis.

Yeah, even though I find myself in the peacekeeper role more often than not, I try not to make my sister feel like I judge her for her resentments toward Ted.  She has more reason to resent him than I do.

[PeterM]

It does amuse me how many terrible clients seem to believe that the Worst Possible Threat they can make is to say they'll go elsewhere.

I've told this story here before but I don't think in this thread.

I work in a public library. Our fines are 25 cents a day per item, but you're allowed to ignore them and keep checking out until they exceed $25, at which point you're blocked. We had a patron who was difficult in a variety of small ways, not really worse than many other patrons. She had more than $25 in fines, so we wouldn't check out to her until she paid them down. It escalated until our supervisor came out and brought her into her office to discuss matters. At which point the patron informs supervisor that if the fines aren't waived, "I'll take my business elsewhere."

To which supervisor replied, "Okay."

Seriously, lady, you hold no cards. The only way we receive money from you is via fines and taxes. You're going to pay the taxes no matter what, which made our choices

1) Waive your fines and lose that money, and still have to deal with you.
2) Not waive your fines so you can't use the library and we don't have to deal with you.
3) Not waive your fines and you go to another branch and bug them.

Why in the world would we go with option 1? The patron was pretty shocked by supervisor's reply, but she did pay her fines.

I should point out that we're pretty generous when it comes to waiving fines for anything resembling a valid reason. But "I just shouldn't have to pay them" gets you nowhere.