Giving PA people what they "want" (Stories!) UPDATE P27

[CrochetFanatic]

When my kids say "But I didn't make that mess!" It irritates me. As a sahm/housewife, it's a regular part of my day to clean up messes that other people make.  If I only cleaned up messes I made, our house would be a pigsty.   So when I ask my older two boys to pitch in and help me to clean up a common room of the house such as the room their computer is in, or the living room and they say "But I didn't make that mess, why should I have to clean it up?", they don't get sent to their room, they get more work to do. 

They have chores anyway that involve cleaning up messes others make, such as doing dishes and scooping litter boxes.  The youngest doesn't have chores yet, being almost 16 months, but when prompted he will pick up his toys and put them in a container.

I'm sort of in the opposite camp here, but then again I don't have kids.  For the bolded, which is true, if everyone took care of their own messes, there wouldn't be much of a mess.  You made some valid points, though.  I might have to try to rearrange my way of thinking here.

[Kate]

I was enjoying reading through these accounts of  behavior exhibiting narcissism, manipulation, hostile aggression, etc, but I see very few examples of what I believed actual PA behavior, or maybe I am confused about what PA behavior actually is? As an example, a poster wrote about how her father openly did not want to walk her down the aisle when she got married, but eventually agreed. It seemed to me he was expressing open hostility and disagreement to the request.

 Now I would have said that was not passive aggressive behavior..... rather if he had agreed to walk her down the aisle and then was "accidentally" late to the ceremony, or "forgot" to pick up his tux too late to showup etc, etc,  that would be passive aggressive behavior.

[Kate]

The couch story reminds me of one time when my dad, who has very smelly feet, decided to lie on the couch with his slippers off.  I, being a very tactless teenager, said "Geez, Dad, your feet stink."  He ignored me (probably because I was always being rude like that.  I was a bit obnoxious at that age).  Then my mum said "Uh, Roger, your feet really do stink.  PLEASE put your slippers back on." 

Whereupon he stomped out of the livingroom in a huff for daring to imply that his toesies didn't smell like gardenias.  Yep, giving us breathable air that didn't make us want to pass out - that'll teach us!

The reverse of this story (which I've told here before I'm sure) was when my sister's boyfriend came over and took his shoes off at the door. He sat on the couch, and suddenly my sister announced that she "smelled something. Do you smell that? What is that?" Well, it was her BF's feet apparently (I was next to him and couldn't smell anything). So she grabbed a bottle of Lysol and Lysol'd his feet. I don't know what she expected him to do--he already took his shoes off when he came in, which was one of her rules. Was he supposed to cut his feet off before entering as well? 

My (adult) dad once got yelled at by his mother for wearing his shoes in the house, so he obliged and took them off by the door, and walked into the tiled entryway... where he then got yelled at for leaving sweaty footprints on the tiles (from his socked feet). He asked his mom if she wanted him to just float around the house. If I remember the story correctly, she just huffed and flounced off. She was a good woman, just particular about very odd things at times.

I quess I'm with her, as I also HATE smudgy sweaty footprints on the hard wood floors in the summer, and there is a simple solution...wear socks in the house 

[Mental Magpie]

The couch story reminds me of one time when my dad, who has very smelly feet, decided to lie on the couch with his slippers off.  I, being a very tactless teenager, said "Geez, Dad, your feet stink."  He ignored me (probably because I was always being rude like that.  I was a bit obnoxious at that age).  Then my mum said "Uh, Roger, your feet really do stink.  PLEASE put your slippers back on." 

Whereupon he stomped out of the livingroom in a huff for daring to imply that his toesies didn't smell like gardenias.  Yep, giving us breathable air that didn't make us want to pass out - that'll teach us!

The reverse of this story (which I've told here before I'm sure) was when my sister's boyfriend came over and took his shoes off at the door. He sat on the couch, and suddenly my sister announced that she "smelled something. Do you smell that? What is that?" Well, it was her BF's feet apparently (I was next to him and couldn't smell anything). So she grabbed a bottle of Lysol and Lysol'd his feet. I don't know what she expected him to do--he already took his shoes off when he came in, which was one of her rules. Was he supposed to cut his feet off before entering as well? 

My (adult) dad once got yelled at by his mother for wearing his shoes in the house, so he obliged and took them off by the door, and walked into the tiled entryway... where he then got yelled at for leaving sweaty footprints on the tiles (from his socked feet). He asked his mom if she wanted him to just float around the house. If I remember the story correctly, she just huffed and flounced off. She was a good woman, just particular about very odd things at times.

I quess I'm with her, as I also HATE smudgy sweaty footprints on the hard wood floors in the summer, and there is a simple solution...wear socks in the house 

He was...

[Mental Magpie]

I was enjoying reading through these accounts of  behavior exhibiting narcissism, manipulation, hostile aggression, etc, but I see very few examples of what I believed actual PA behavior, or maybe I am confused about what PA behavior actually is? As an example, a poster wrote about how her father openly did not want to walk her down the aisle when she got married, but eventually agreed. It seemed to me he was expressing open hostility and disagreement to the request.

 Now I would have said that was not passive aggressive behavior..... rather if he had agreed to walk her down the aisle and then was "accidentally" late to the ceremony, or "forgot" to pick up his tux too late to showup etc, etc,  that would be passive aggressive behavior.

He was PA before the event whereas your examples are PA after the event.

[Kate]

OOps did not see the part about him wearing socks...I suppose if socks are sweaty, that would still leave footprints. As one who has dealt  over the years with teenage boys with smelly sweaty socks I still sympathize LOL

[Kate]

I was enjoying reading through these accounts of  behavior exhibiting narcissism, manipulation, hostile aggression, etc, but I see very few examples of what I believed actual PA behavior, or maybe I am confused about what PA behavior actually is? As an example, a poster wrote about how her father openly did not want to walk her down the aisle when she got married, but eventually agreed. It seemed to me he was expressing open hostility and disagreement to the request.

 Now I would have said that was not passive aggressive behavior..... rather if he had agreed to walk her down the aisle and then was "accidentally" late to the ceremony, or "forgot" to pick up his tux too late to showup etc, etc,  that would be passive aggressive behavior.

He was PA before the event whereas your examples are PA after the event.

But that is where I am confused, as by definition, a passive aggressive person does not openly express aggression , thus the  "passive"part...OP said her father was open hostile to, and refusing the idea of walking her down the aisle, that' s just being a difficult pain in the posterior, IMO
As one who has occaisionally dealt with passive aggressive behavior on the part of my spouse, I would RATHER have someone tell me where they stand, say no, be defiant, etc right up front, rather than pretending to agree, or remaining silent while secretly disagreeing and undermining or sabatoging.

[gramma dishes]

My (adult) dad once got yelled at by his mother for wearing his shoes in the house, so he obliged and took them off by the door, and walked into the tiled entryway... where he then got yelled at for leaving sweaty footprints on the tiles (from his socked feet). He asked his mom if she wanted him to just float around the house. If I remember the story correctly, she just huffed and flounced off. She was a good woman, just particular about very odd things at times.

I quess I'm with her, as I also HATE smudgy sweaty footprints on the hard wood floors in the summer, and there is a simple solution...wear socks in the house

Seems he WAS wearing socks!!   

[Mental Magpie]

I was enjoying reading through these accounts of  behavior exhibiting narcissism, manipulation, hostile aggression, etc, but I see very few examples of what I believed actual PA behavior, or maybe I am confused about what PA behavior actually is? As an example, a poster wrote about how her father openly did not want to walk her down the aisle when she got married, but eventually agreed. It seemed to me he was expressing open hostility and disagreement to the request.

 Now I would have said that was not passive aggressive behavior..... rather if he had agreed to walk her down the aisle and then was "accidentally" late to the ceremony, or "forgot" to pick up his tux too late to showup etc, etc,  that would be passive aggressive behavior.

He was PA before the event whereas your examples are PA after the event.

But that is where I am confused, as by definition, a passive aggressive person does not openly express aggression , thus the  "passive"part...OP said her father was open hostile to, and refusing the idea of walking her down the aisle, that' s just being a difficult pain in the posterior, IMO
As one who has occaisionally dealt with passive aggressive behavior on the part of my spouse, I would RATHER have someone tell me where they stand, say no, be defiant, etc right up front, rather than pretending to agree, or remaining silent while secretly disagreeing and undermining or sabatoging.

He did want to walk her down the aisle, he just wanted her to think that it was a big imposition to him and by him giving in to do so (with her begging) he was such a nice person and it was such a kind thing for him to do for her, how nice of him, isn't he great?!  It's a passive and aggressive way to try to control people on top of trying to make them think you're kind for doing it.

[Redneck Gravy]

I'm mostly on Wonderfullyanonymous' side on this one.  It's all well and good if you want kids to participate in the daily household chores, but you better be sure it's equitable across all of them.  Having someone come home after being gone and having them clean up messes created by someone else doesn't prepare your child for anything but resentment.  Especially if, as it sounds, the siblings don't have the same expectation.

I tried to POD this hours ago...before my power went off. 

My brother and I frequently use resentment as our middle name...

[Kate]

I was enjoying reading through these accounts of  behavior exhibiting narcissism, manipulation, hostile aggression, etc, but I see very few examples of what I believed actual PA behavior, or maybe I am confused about what PA behavior actually is? As an example, a poster wrote about how her father openly did not want to walk her down the aisle when she got married, but eventually agreed. It seemed to me he was expressing open hostility and disagreement to the request.

 Now I would have said that was not passive aggressive behavior..... rather if he had agreed to walk her down the aisle and then was "accidentally" late to the ceremony, or "forgot" to pick up his tux too late to showup etc, etc,  that would be passive aggressive behavior.

He was PA before the event whereas your examples are PA after the event.

But that is where I am confused, as by definition, a passive aggressive person does not openly express aggression , thus the  "passive"part...OP said her father was open hostile to, and refusing the idea of walking her down the aisle, that' s just being a difficult pain in the posterior, IMO
As one who has occaisionally dealt with passive aggressive behavior on the part of my spouse, I would RATHER have someone tell me where they stand, say no, be defiant, etc right up front, rather than pretending to agree, or remaining silent while secretly disagreeing and undermining or sabatoging.

He did want to walk her down the aisle, he just wanted her to think that it was a big imposition to him and by him giving in to do so (with her begging) he was such a nice person and it was such a kind thing for him to do for her, how nice of him, isn't he great?!  It's a passive and aggressive way to try to control people on top of trying to make them think you're kind for doing it.

Hmm..certainly controlling and manipulative, but still not sure it fits into "passive aggressive" by the definitions I find online
it seemed more to me, albeit we don't know this person , that he really did not want to do the task but was not willing for anyone else to usurp his position.
Suppose we came up with a similar but hypothetical situation..Sally asks boyfriend Joe to go with her to a dance. Joe hates dancing and says upfront he does not wish to go. Sally nicely says, that's not a problem, Other guy Ed likes dancing I'll go with him instead. Joe, scared he will lose her,not wanting her to go with other guy says, he will go...so who is the manipulator?

[Mental Magpie]

I was enjoying reading through these accounts of  behavior exhibiting narcissism, manipulation, hostile aggression, etc, but I see very few examples of what I believed actual PA behavior, or maybe I am confused about what PA behavior actually is? As an example, a poster wrote about how her father openly did not want to walk her down the aisle when she got married, but eventually agreed. It seemed to me he was expressing open hostility and disagreement to the request.

 Now I would have said that was not passive aggressive behavior..... rather if he had agreed to walk her down the aisle and then was "accidentally" late to the ceremony, or "forgot" to pick up his tux too late to showup etc, etc,  that would be passive aggressive behavior.

He was PA before the event whereas your examples are PA after the event.

But that is where I am confused, as by definition, a passive aggressive person does not openly express aggression , thus the  "passive"part...OP said her father was open hostile to, and refusing the idea of walking her down the aisle, that' s just being a difficult pain in the posterior, IMO
As one who has occaisionally dealt with passive aggressive behavior on the part of my spouse, I would RATHER have someone tell me where they stand, say no, be defiant, etc right up front, rather than pretending to agree, or remaining silent while secretly disagreeing and undermining or sabatoging.

He did want to walk her down the aisle, he just wanted her to think that it was a big imposition to him and by him giving in to do so (with her begging) he was such a nice person and it was such a kind thing for him to do for her, how nice of him, isn't he great?!  It's a passive and aggressive way to try to control people on top of trying to make them think you're kind for doing it.

Hmm..certainly controlling and manipulative, but still not sure it fits into "passive aggressive" by the definitions I find online
it seemed more to me, albeit we don't know this person , that he really did not want to do the task but was not willing for anyone else to usurp his position.

Sure, that may be part of his motive, too, but I see the controlling aspect through passive means to be an aggressive way of getting what he wants: to walk his daughter down the aisle while people think he's just such a kind person because he did it against his will (or so they think).

Thanks for the discussion, btw, I like disagreeing and talking out our differences to get to the other person's point of view.

[Kate]

I was enjoying reading through these accounts of  behavior exhibiting narcissism, manipulation, hostile aggression, etc, but I see very few examples of what I believed actual PA behavior, or maybe I am confused about what PA behavior actually is? As an example, a poster wrote about how her father openly did not want to walk her down the aisle when she got married, but eventually agreed. It seemed to me he was expressing open hostility and disagreement to the request.

 Now I would have said that was not passive aggressive behavior..... rather if he had agreed to walk her down the aisle and then was "accidentally" late to the ceremony, or "forgot" to pick up his tux too late to showup etc, etc,  that would be passive aggressive behavior.

He was PA before the event whereas your examples are PA after the event.

But that is where I am confused, as by definition, a passive aggressive person does not openly express aggression , thus the  "passive"part...OP said her father was open hostile to, and refusing the idea of walking her down the aisle, that' s just being a difficult pain in the posterior, IMO
As one who has occaisionally dealt with passive aggressive behavior on the part of my spouse, I would RATHER have someone tell me where they stand, say no, be defiant, etc right up front, rather than pretending to agree, or remaining silent while secretly disagreeing and undermining or sabatoging.

He did want to walk her down the aisle, he just wanted her to think that it was a big imposition to him and by him giving in to do so (with her begging) he was such a nice person and it was such a kind thing for him to do for her, how nice of him, isn't he great?!  It's a passive and aggressive way to try to control people on top of trying to make them think you're kind for doing it.

Hmm..certainly controlling and manipulative, but still not sure it fits into "passive aggressive" by the definitions I find online
it seemed more to me, albeit we don't know this person , that he really did not want to do the task but was not willing for anyone else to usurp his position.

Sure, that may be part of his motive, too, but I see the controlling aspect through passive means to be an aggressive way of getting what he wants: to walk his daughter down the aisle while people think he's just such a kind person because he did it against his will (or so they think).

Thanks for the discussion, btw, I like disagreeing and talking out our differences to get to the other person's point of view.

You are welcome ...I find these posts so interesting , thinking about what makes people "tick" so to speak, and sometimes when we cannot get inside others heads and emotions we make assumptions about their motives which may or may not be true.
I laughed at the posts about elderley relatives that moan about how this is their last birthday, won't be here next year etc, etc, .....my grandpa started doing that when he was in his sixties and he lived into his nineties! LOL...don't think he was being PA though, just attention seeking, wanting affirmation of his worth to his family IMO

[Tea Drinker]

I was enjoying reading through these accounts of  behavior exhibiting narcissism, manipulation, hostile aggression, etc, but I see very few examples of what I believed actual PA behavior, or maybe I am confused about what PA behavior actually is? As an example, a poster wrote about how her father openly did not want to walk her down the aisle when she got married, but eventually agreed. It seemed to me he was expressing open hostility and disagreement to the request.

 Now I would have said that was not passive aggressive behavior..... rather if he had agreed to walk her down the aisle and then was "accidentally" late to the ceremony, or "forgot" to pick up his tux too late to showup etc, etc,  that would be passive aggressive behavior.

He was PA before the event whereas your examples are PA after the event.

But that is where I am confused, as by definition, a passive aggressive person does not openly express aggression , thus the  "passive"part...OP said her father was open hostile to, and refusing the idea of walking her down the aisle, that' s just being a difficult pain in the posterior, IMO
As one who has occaisionally dealt with passive aggressive behavior on the part of my spouse, I would RATHER have someone tell me where they stand, say no, be defiant, etc right up front, rather than pretending to agree, or remaining silent while secretly disagreeing and undermining or sabatoging.

He did want to walk her down the aisle, he just wanted her to think that it was a big imposition to him and by him giving in to do so (with her begging) he was such a nice person and it was such a kind thing for him to do for her, how nice of him, isn't he great?!  It's a passive and aggressive way to try to control people on top of trying to make them think you're kind for doing it.

Hmm..certainly controlling and manipulative, but still not sure it fits into "passive aggressive" by the definitions I find online
it seemed more to me, albeit we don't know this person , that he really did not want to do the task but was not willing for anyone else to usurp his position.
Suppose we came up with a similar but hypothetical situation..Sally asks boyfriend Joe to go with her to a dance. Joe hates dancing and says upfront he does not wish to go. Sally nicely says, that's not a problem, Other guy Ed likes dancing I'll go with him instead. Joe, scared he will lose her,not wanting her to go with other guy says, he will go...so who is the manipulator?

Without more details (which of course don't exist in a hypothetical), I don't know whether anyone is a manipulator.

If I were in Sally's shoes, and said "that's okay, I'll do that with someone else" I wouldn't be trying to manipulate my partner into doing it, and I wouldn't be thinking "if Joe doesn't go to the dance with me, I'll break up with him." If dancing was that important to me, I would want either a partner who actively enjoyed it, or one who was comfortable with me dancing with other people, knowing I'd come home to him or her at the end of the night. Not someone who would reluctantly come to a dance with me, sit out as many dances as possible, and look grumpy when he did stand up with me.

That said, I know there are people whose motivation would be as you imply, to pressure their "Joe" to go to the dance even though he didn't want to. But I still wouldn't call either party PA. Sally isn't PA unless she has no intention of going to the dance with Ed even if Joe still says no. (Taking an evening to figure out whether you'd rather go out with Ed than Joe, given that Joe doesn't share one of your interests that Ed does, isn't passive-aggressive.) And Joe isn't being PA unless he refused Sally's invitation so he could wait until she said "OK, I guess I'll stay home" to propose something he knew she wouldn't consider a first choice. (The non-PA way of doing that would be "No thanks, you know I don't like dancing. How about we go see a movie that night instead?" or even "no thanks, you know I don't like dancing, and besides there are some chores I need to take care of."

[Mental Magpie]

See, Joe genuinely doesn't want to dance, whereas in the actual post, the way the father backtracks shows that he indeed wants to but was trying to get the daughter to say how much she wants it so that when he gave in it made it look like he was doing her a favor.  That's the difference between a genuine person and a PA person.  When I get home, I'll write another example; right now, that would take too long on my phone.