Author Topic: Is it rude to trick someone into showing that they lied to you?  (Read 8161 times)

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LeveeWoman

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Re: Is it rude to trick someone into showing that they lied to you?
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2012, 07:26:49 PM »
I outed a liar once by misleading them. My coworker at a daycare claimed I had left early, leaving a bunch of kids alone. From previous interactions with her, I knew that she hated me because she wanted someone else to get my job. Also, she never came to check on those allegedly left alone children, which led me to believe she had made it up on purpose. So I said to her, "Lot's of people drive beige toyota camrys, are you sure it was me you saw?" She said yes, that she had seen me get into my beige toyota camry and leave early. I responded that it couldn't have been me, as I didn't have a car like that. I said that in front of the boss, who knew that the other woman was a liar in a way that me just protesting my innocence wouldn't have. Maybe it was rude, maybe it wasn't under the circumstances since she made such a serious accusation, but it was certainly effective.

I have no problem with this one because she was trying to get you fired.

AllTheThings

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Re: Is it rude to trick someone into showing that they lied to you?
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2012, 07:28:38 PM »
The Example with your grandma, not necessarily rude.

The other two examples you gave are rude because in both examples, Person 1 is lying.

Even the question "Isn't Alex a great guy" would be a lie if the person asking knows that Alex is a woman, as it is said with intent to deceive.

They all come off as a bit self congragulatory and ego based to be honest.  Kind of like "Look how cleverly I trapped you"

Here is an example where I think this would be very rude:

A: I met (famous person) once! Then we had lunch together and it was great!
B: Oh, did you meet them on their 2005 tour?
A: Yes.
B: That's impossible. That person died in 2000.

I think this scenario is rude because even though it might be annoying to listen to an obviously fake story like this, it is ultimately harmless. It would be better to just go along with and inwardly roll your eyes.

In the examples I gave, allowing the lies to go unchecked could result in: being emotionally manipulated, getting in trouble by a boss, having a reputation as a thief, or being fired or disciplined. What I am wondering is, is setting a trap for a person still rude even if their lies could cause a problem? Is the clever person's rudeness mitigated by the liar's intent to do harm through deception? Can one rationalize catching people in a lie in this way by thinking, "Well, if they didn't want to stand there looking foolish just now, they shouldn't have lied to me in the first place." Or is it still rude?

AllTheThings

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Re: Is it rude to trick someone into showing that they lied to you?
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2012, 07:31:10 PM »
So you catch them and then what?  What do you do from there? In the scenarios you describe I can't imagine how that would help.

This - I don't understand the purpose of spending the time and energy 'outing' liars.  Would your father not come to the hospital if your grandmother didn't hit her head?  If someone claims they know your boss and they don't, what does it matter? 

People who lie constantly get caught eventually, and this attitude strikes me as massively offensive when someone is not lying.

Outing liars can matter because things can go bad for you if they are not caught. Yes, if my dad had known from the start that his mother had lied he would not have gone to the hospital for her, and told her to deal with everything herself.

If you let your boss's "friend" talk to them on the phone and it turns out they are a salesman, the boss might get angry at you.

I outed a liar once by misleading them. My coworker at a daycare claimed I had left early, leaving a bunch of kids alone. From previous interactions with her, I knew that she hated me because she wanted someone else to get my job. Also, she never came to check on those allegedly left alone children, which led me to believe she had made it up on purpose. So I said to her, "Lot's of people drive beige toyota camrys, are you sure it was me you saw?" She said yes, that she had seen me get into my beige toyota camry and leave early. I responded that it couldn't have been me, as I didn't have a car like that. I said that in front of the boss, who knew that the other woman was a liar in a way that me just protesting my innocence wouldn't have. Maybe it was rude, maybe it wasn't under the circumstances since she made such a serious accusation, but it was certainly effective.

The first time you told the camry story here you said your boss just said that your co worker must have been mistaken and outing her as a liar didn't save your job since you lost it two weeks later.

I don't think misleading or tricking someone to make a point is a particularly useful tactic.

The only reason why that didn't work was because she was friends with the employee and chose to ignore what had happened. Also, the place couldn't afford to pay me, since they were losing business due to their shadiness. Had the boss been impartial and running a better business I wouldn't have been fired. I didn't help me keep my job, but it did work in demonstrating that the employee had been lying and that I couldn't trust her.

Kiwichick

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Re: Is it rude to trick someone into showing that they lied to you?
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2012, 07:32:37 PM »
The Example with your grandma, not necessarily rude.

The other two examples you gave are rude because in both examples, Person 1 is lying.

Even the question "Isn't Alex a great guy" would be a lie if the person asking knows that Alex is a woman, as it is said with intent to deceive.

Technically, not a lie (although there is definitely an attempt to deceive). Yes a reasonable person would assume that Alex is referring to the boss, but Alex could in theory be anyone.

It is a lie you both know you are speaking about the boss, it's ridiculous to say it's 'tecnically not a lie'.  Frankly if I heard you doing this I would think you were as dishonest and shady as the people you are trying to out.

Piratelvr1121

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Re: Is it rude to trick someone into showing that they lied to you?
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2012, 07:32:55 PM »
I have mixed feelings on this as I've had this done to me in a case where I wasn't so much lying as just not coming forth with all the information because I'd made a promise.  I've told this story before.  When I was 19, my closest friend at the time had come to visit and confided in me that she was pregnant and would I please not tell anyone until she was able to tell her mom? She didn't want her mom to hear it from anyone else first.  Makes sense to me.

Well, she went to her mom's house and a few hours later my mom came to talk to me and wanted to know how things were going with my friend.  I only told her a few things and omitted the pregnancy info.  Mom asked "Nothing else then?"  I shrugged and said nope. 

"You're lying, her mom just called me and told me she was pregnant!"
"Well she asked me to keep the secret until she was able to tell her mother and I had no way of knowing she had done so yet."
"A lie by omission is still a lie!"  ::)

I was omitting it for a reason, sheesh.

However...there've been times I have, when I have a feeling my sons are lying to me about how much homework they have. "Okay well I'll just email the teacher and see what they say" Suddenly they have homework they "forgot" about.
Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars.  You have a right to be here. Be cheerful, strive to be happy. -Desiderata

AllTheThings

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Re: Is it rude to trick someone into showing that they lied to you?
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2012, 07:36:09 PM »
The Example with your grandma, not necessarily rude.

The other two examples you gave are rude because in both examples, Person 1 is lying.

Even the question "Isn't Alex a great guy" would be a lie if the person asking knows that Alex is a woman, as it is said with intent to deceive.

Technically, not a lie (although there is definitely an attempt to deceive). Yes a reasonable person would assume that Alex is referring to the boss, but Alex could in theory be anyone.

It is a lie you both know you are speaking about the boss, it's ridiculous to say it's 'tecnically not a lie'.  Frankly if I heard you doing this I would think you were as dishonest and shady as the people you are trying to out.

I'm not sure you can equate the two, as the other person is lying to cause some kind of problem. You would be deceiving them to protect yourself/the business in direct response to dishonesty from the other person. Are they the same in rudenesss levels?

Kiwichick

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Re: Is it rude to trick someone into showing that they lied to you?
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2012, 07:36:54 PM »

The only reason why that didn't work was because she was friends with the employee and chose to ignore what had happened. Also, the place couldn't afford to pay me, since they were losing business due to their shadiness. Had the boss been impartial and running a better business I wouldn't have been fired. I didn't help me keep my job, but it did work in demonstrating that the employee had been lying and that I couldn't trust her.

I snipped the quote tree.

It didn't demonstrate anything, you already knew she was a liar.   How do you know it wasn't your lying about the car that lead your boss to let you go?

Sharnita

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Re: Is it rude to trick someone into showing that they lied to you?
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2012, 07:38:23 PM »
To me it is pretty close to the same.  I don't even know that i'd call it rudeness because it kind of goes beyond that in some ways.

Kiwichick

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Re: Is it rude to trick someone into showing that they lied to you?
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2012, 07:41:18 PM »
The Example with your grandma, not necessarily rude.

The other two examples you gave are rude because in both examples, Person 1 is lying.

Even the question "Isn't Alex a great guy" would be a lie if the person asking knows that Alex is a woman, as it is said with intent to deceive.

Technically, not a lie (although there is definitely an attempt to deceive). Yes a reasonable person would assume that Alex is referring to the boss, but Alex could in theory be anyone.

It is a lie you both know you are speaking about the boss, it's ridiculous to say it's 'tecnically not a lie'.  Frankly if I heard you doing this I would think you were as dishonest and shady as the people you are trying to out.

I'm not sure you can equate the two, as the other person is lying to cause some kind of problem. You would be deceiving them to protect yourself/the business in direct response to dishonesty from the other person. Are they the same in rudenesss levels?

I'm trying to imagine what sort of problem could be caused by someone saying they are the boss's friend that couldn't be headed off with a call to the boss saying 'your friend so and so is on the line/is here and wants to speak to you.'

Lying is lying unless you are telling your best mate her bum doesn't look big in that.


AllTheThings

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Re: Is it rude to trick someone into showing that they lied to you?
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2012, 07:43:16 PM »

The only reason why that didn't work was because she was friends with the employee and chose to ignore what had happened. Also, the place couldn't afford to pay me, since they were losing business due to their shadiness. Had the boss been impartial and running a better business I wouldn't have been fired. I didn't help me keep my job, but it did work in demonstrating that the employee had been lying and that I couldn't trust her.

I snipped the quote tree.

It didn't demonstrate anything, you already knew she was a liar.   How do you know it wasn't your lying about the car that lead your boss to let you go?

I didn't know, I just had a very strong suspicion. I am also pretty sure that money was a strong factor in letting me go, as we had lost a good number of kids, due to parent complaints. They combined groups of kids into one room, so I wasn't needed. Plus it doesn't make sense to fire someone for tricking an employee, yet not fire that employee for lying and trying to get the other person fired.

AllTheThings

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Re: Is it rude to trick someone into showing that they lied to you?
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2012, 07:44:04 PM »
The Example with your grandma, not necessarily rude.

The other two examples you gave are rude because in both examples, Person 1 is lying.

Even the question "Isn't Alex a great guy" would be a lie if the person asking knows that Alex is a woman, as it is said with intent to deceive.

Technically, not a lie (although there is definitely an attempt to deceive). Yes a reasonable person would assume that Alex is referring to the boss, but Alex could in theory be anyone.

It is a lie you both know you are speaking about the boss, it's ridiculous to say it's 'tecnically not a lie'.  Frankly if I heard you doing this I would think you were as dishonest and shady as the people you are trying to out.

I'm not sure you can equate the two, as the other person is lying to cause some kind of problem. You would be deceiving them to protect yourself/the business in direct response to dishonesty from the other person. Are they the same in rudenesss levels?

I'm trying to imagine what sort of problem could be caused by someone saying they are the boss's friend that couldn't be headed off with a call to the boss saying 'your friend so and so is on the line/is here and wants to speak to you.'

Lying is lying unless you are telling your best mate her bum doesn't look big in that.

In a small company where you can easily reach the boss I would definitely do that, but sometimes that is just not possible. Also, telling your friend a white lie is still a lie, but it is a lie for a good cause.

AllTheThings

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Re: Is it rude to trick someone into showing that they lied to you?
« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2012, 07:45:14 PM »
To me it is pretty close to the same.  I don't even know that i'd call it rudeness because it kind of goes beyond that in some ways.

Can you explain? I don't really get what you mean.

wolfie

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Re: Is it rude to trick someone into showing that they lied to you?
« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2012, 07:45:58 PM »
Your two example situations doesn't seem like tricking someone into lying so much as lying to someone to promote them to lie in return. Especially the second one - I would not look kindly on someone who trashed me just to get someone else to admit that they did something bad to me too. There has to be a better way of going about it.

Sharnita

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Re: Is it rude to trick someone into showing that they lied to you?
« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2012, 07:48:56 PM »
To me it is pretty close to the same.  I don't even know that i'd call it rudeness because it kind of goes beyond that in some ways.

Can you explain? I don't really get what you mean.

It is not jut about being polite or impolite.  It involves morality and ideas of right and wrong.  That is beyond just etiquette. 

Kiwichick

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Re: Is it rude to trick someone into showing that they lied to you?
« Reply #29 on: December 02, 2012, 07:50:44 PM »
In a small company where you can easily reach the boss I would definitely do that, but sometimes that is just not possible. Also, telling your friend a white lie is still a lie, but it is a lie for a good cause.

If you can't get hold of the boss neither can the liar so you still have no need to lie to them.

I don't agree a 'white lie' is still a lie.  A lie is telling someone something that isn't true with the intention of deceiving them. Telling my mate that her bum doesn't look big in that is done with the intention of having her feel great in the clothes she's wearing.