Author Topic: Please Don't Kick My Dog...  (Read 11190 times)

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sunnygirl

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Re: Please Don't Kick My Dog...
« Reply #45 on: December 05, 2012, 09:53:21 AM »
Safety trumps etiquette. That lady was in no danger, but your dog was. There's absolutely no reason to try to be polite or sweet or mild with someone who kicks at a dog, regardless of whether they actually manage to hit it. Especially when said dog is on a leash and is doing literally nothing to that person. I'm shocked, honestly, that she had the nerve to do that and then call it a beast. It doesn't matter if she has a phobia, that's her problem to deal with. You don't kick animals who are doing no harm to you, especially someone else's pet.

I'm even more shocked that kicking was her first reaction. If she was phobic she could just as well have stepped back or said "please don't come near". What a horrible person.
How was the dog in such immediate danger for it to be a 'safety trumps etiquette' situation? I don't see how the dog was in any danger from an an elderly woman standing a good distance away - and backing away - making feeble air kicks. She didn't actually kick or attempt to kick the dog. And the woman had no way of knowing whether the dog - who was actively trying to get to her, not "literally doing nothing" - presented a danger to her or not.

Like I said, I don't condone her behaviour. At all. But I think it's important to make a distinction between actual physical abuse (kicking an animal) and what the woman did.

rashea

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Re: Please Don't Kick My Dog...
« Reply #46 on: December 05, 2012, 09:57:36 AM »
I think you would be better off trying to reassure her, and let her know that kicking at the dog might seem aggressive, and maybe even offer her a better option. A hand held up and a "I'm scared of dogs" would work much better.

I'm still trying to picture this kick, but I'm guessing that a little kick by someone 10 feet away was not something that resulted in you being genuinely afraid that she was going to hurt your dog.

I almost wonder if what she was thinking was to let off some of her fear (which is not to say that I think her actions were appropriate, but she's not here for me to offer advice to). Sort of a "ha, I conquered that dog".

I do feel for you OP. My dog is no longer scary to most people (something about the fact that she walks in circles and falls down pretty regularly) to the point where I've used her to help people who are afraid of dogs. But, I've had dogs that people were afraid of. And it's a tough thing to deal with. You know they are a wimp and wouldn't bite even if you pulled their ears. But, they don't know that. And that happy dance can look scary to someone else. Hang in there. Come up with a line to reassure people, and you'll be in good shape.
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WillyNilly

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Re: Please Don't Kick My Dog...
« Reply #47 on: December 05, 2012, 09:57:36 AM »
Safety trumps etiquette. That lady was in no danger, but your dog was. There's absolutely no reason to try to be polite or sweet or mild with someone who kicks at a dog, regardless of whether they actually manage to hit it. Especially when said dog is on a leash and is doing literally nothing to that person. I'm shocked, honestly, that she had the nerve to do that and then call it a beast. It doesn't matter if she has a phobia, that's her problem to deal with. You don't kick animals who are doing no harm to you, especially someone else's pet.

I'm even more shocked that kicking was her first reaction. If she was phobic she could just as well have stepped back or said "please don't come near". What a horrible person.

Edit: I'd also like to say that kicking while being further away from the dog does not make it okay, it's a threatening action to do to anyone. Not acceptable.

I totally disagree with you.  The dog was advancing towards her because it wanted to meet her and wagging it's tail quickly - which to people who are not dog-people looks very threatening.  And she was backing up and the OP says they were feeble kicks at the air 10 feet away from the dog.  So while I think no one was actually in danger, if anyone was to suppose one was in danger it would have squarely been the scared backing up woman was in danger and the eager advancing dog was in none.

Cosmasia

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Re: Please Don't Kick My Dog...
« Reply #48 on: December 05, 2012, 10:06:27 AM »
Safety trumps etiquette. That lady was in no danger, but your dog was. There's absolutely no reason to try to be polite or sweet or mild with someone who kicks at a dog, regardless of whether they actually manage to hit it. Especially when said dog is on a leash and is doing literally nothing to that person. I'm shocked, honestly, that she had the nerve to do that and then call it a beast. It doesn't matter if she has a phobia, that's her problem to deal with. You don't kick animals who are doing no harm to you, especially someone else's pet.

I'm even more shocked that kicking was her first reaction. If she was phobic she could just as well have stepped back or said "please don't come near". What a horrible person.
How was the dog in such immediate danger for it to be a 'safety trumps etiquette' situation? I don't see how the dog was in any danger from an an elderly woman standing a good distance away - and backing away - making feeble air kicks. She didn't actually kick or attempt to kick the dog. And the woman had no way of knowing whether the dog - who was actively trying to get to her, not "literally doing nothing" - presented a danger to her or not.

Like I said, I don't condone her behaviour. At all. But I think it's important to make a distinction between actual physical abuse (kicking an animal) and what the woman did.

Someone threatening you is danger and kicking at someone is a threat. It's no different than if a person punches the air at you or makes other threatening moves.
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chigrrl1

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Re: Please Don't Kick My Dog...
« Reply #49 on: December 05, 2012, 10:17:47 AM »
Safety trumps etiquette. That lady was in no danger, but your dog was. There's absolutely no reason to try to be polite or sweet or mild with someone who kicks at a dog, regardless of whether they actually manage to hit it. Especially when said dog is on a leash and is doing literally nothing to that person. I'm shocked, honestly, that she had the nerve to do that and then call it a beast. It doesn't matter if she has a phobia, that's her problem to deal with. You don't kick animals who are doing no harm to you, especially someone else's pet.

I'm even more shocked that kicking was her first reaction. If she was phobic she could just as well have stepped back or said "please don't come near". What a horrible person.
How was the dog in such immediate danger for it to be a 'safety trumps etiquette' situation? I don't see how the dog was in any danger from an an elderly woman standing a good distance away - and backing away - making feeble air kicks. She didn't actually kick or attempt to kick the dog. And the woman had no way of knowing whether the dog - who was actively trying to get to her, not "literally doing nothing" - presented a danger to her or not.

Like I said, I don't condone her behaviour. At all. But I think it's important to make a distinction between actual physical abuse (kicking an animal) and what the woman did.

Someone threatening you is danger and kicking at someone is a threat. It's no different than if a person punches the air at you or makes other threatening moves.
I'm with you on this one. Kicking demonstrates that she wanted to engage with the animal further.  If she merely wished to avoid the dog, she could have used her words to advise OP to keep the awful "beast" away from her.

sunnygirl

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Re: Please Don't Kick My Dog...
« Reply #50 on: December 05, 2012, 10:25:40 AM »
Safety trumps etiquette. That lady was in no danger, but your dog was. There's absolutely no reason to try to be polite or sweet or mild with someone who kicks at a dog, regardless of whether they actually manage to hit it. Especially when said dog is on a leash and is doing literally nothing to that person. I'm shocked, honestly, that she had the nerve to do that and then call it a beast. It doesn't matter if she has a phobia, that's her problem to deal with. You don't kick animals who are doing no harm to you, especially someone else's pet.

I'm even more shocked that kicking was her first reaction. If she was phobic she could just as well have stepped back or said "please don't come near". What a horrible person.
How was the dog in such immediate danger for it to be a 'safety trumps etiquette' situation? I don't see how the dog was in any danger from an an elderly woman standing a good distance away - and backing away - making feeble air kicks. She didn't actually kick or attempt to kick the dog. And the woman had no way of knowing whether the dog - who was actively trying to get to her, not "literally doing nothing" - presented a danger to her or not.

Like I said, I don't condone her behaviour. At all. But I think it's important to make a distinction between actual physical abuse (kicking an animal) and what the woman did.

Someone threatening you is danger and kicking at someone is a threat. It's no different than if a person punches the air at you or makes other threatening moves.
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree, because I really can't see any comparison. Threatening behaviour depends on context. A mugger waving a fist is a threat. A toddler waving a fist is not. You are not automatically in danger every time someone waves a fist while they're around you. The woman felt threatened and reacted very badly, but there's no evidence she presented any threat to the dog.

CaptainObvious

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Re: Please Don't Kick My Dog...
« Reply #51 on: December 05, 2012, 10:32:27 AM »
Safety trumps etiquette. That lady was in no danger, but your dog was. There's absolutely no reason to try to be polite or sweet or mild with someone who kicks at a dog, regardless of whether they actually manage to hit it. Especially when said dog is on a leash and is doing literally nothing to that person. I'm shocked, honestly, that she had the nerve to do that and then call it a beast. It doesn't matter if she has a phobia, that's her problem to deal with. You don't kick animals who are doing no harm to you, especially someone else's pet.

I'm even more shocked that kicking was her first reaction. If she was phobic she could just as well have stepped back or said "please don't come near". What a horrible person.
How was the dog in such immediate danger for it to be a 'safety trumps etiquette' situation? I don't see how the dog was in any danger from an an elderly woman standing a good distance away - and backing away - making feeble air kicks. She didn't actually kick or attempt to kick the dog. And the woman had no way of knowing whether the dog - who was actively trying to get to her, not "literally doing nothing" - presented a danger to her or not.

Like I said, I don't condone her behaviour. At all. But I think it's important to make a distinction between actual physical abuse (kicking an animal) and what the woman did.

Someone threatening you is danger and kicking at someone is a threat. It's no different than if a person punches the air at you or makes other threatening moves.
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree, because I really can't see any comparison. Threatening behaviour depends on context. A mugger waving a fist is a threat. A toddler waving a fist is not. You are not automatically in danger every time someone waves a fist while they're around you. The woman felt threatened and reacted very badly, but there's no evidence she presented any threat to the dog.

The same argument could be said for the dog. The dog was restrained and under control and posed no threat. Yes, people have been jumped on and nipped by dogs, but it doesn't mean they have to overreact everytime a dog glances in their direction.

Miss Unleaded

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Re: Please Don't Kick My Dog...
« Reply #52 on: December 05, 2012, 10:39:41 AM »
Quote
The kicks were kinda feeble, but it got my back up.  Uh-uh.  Not okay to kick at my dog.  Daisy was on a harness and leash, and there was no danger of her unintentionally harming the lady.  Now, Daisy is about 70 pounds and admittedly looks a bit intimidating to people who first meet her, but she's really just a big wimp.  I can't totally blame the lady for her reaction, especially it she was afraid of dogs, but I was angry just the same.

I'm not sure if I handled this well or not, though.  I said, not in a sharp tone, "Ma'am, please don't try to kick my dog.  I understand you don't want to be jumped on or knocked down, but I've got her under control, and we're leaving.  She won't bother you."

I don't think you did really badly, but I agree with others who say that I have a hard time imagining a 60 year old woman 10 feet away, taking a step back and making two feeble kicks in the air presenting any danger to your dog or any real threat.  I think a better way would have just been to reassure her that you had the dog under control and that she was in no danger.

O'Dell

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Re: Please Don't Kick My Dog...
« Reply #53 on: December 05, 2012, 10:51:07 AM »
If the woman had used her hands and did a shoo, shoo type motion (cant come up with a better description) would people feel she was in the wrong?

As a dog owner I'd be annoyed if someone did that to my dog when we were that far out.   It would be like they are assuming that I'm not in control of the dog. I'd not say anything, as it isn't a threatening motion, but the person would probably get some sort of look ranging between "what are you doing" and an offended "excuse me?" 

I grew up around dogs and know how to handle them. I see a lot of dog owners who aren't in control of their dogs. Almost daily. I love and respect dogs and that is why I am wary of strange ones and even more wary of their owners. The dog was lunging? The OP could have appeared not in control and frankly an owner should know their dog and be aware enough to have that under control quickly. I think it's a good plan Crochet to have your dog on the other side of you when he's feisty and you are around anyone. Safer for your dog that way.

And the reflexes vs. etiquette of the situation? In my opinion, a civilized person doesn't let their instincts take over in situations where it's not necessary. No one was in danger in the situation the OP describes. Not the dog nor the stranger nor the OP. Etiquette is there to help us resist instinctive urges to lash out, verbally or otherwise, in situations where it's not appropriate.

(And also as a dog owner/lover, I find it ironic how protective people would be of a large dog. I suspect that many of you would protect your dogs from my playing with them. I thought boxers could take a fair bit of roughhousing. I'd be rougher with him than this lady was....just for fun.)
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WillyNilly

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Re: Please Don't Kick My Dog...
« Reply #54 on: December 05, 2012, 11:08:00 AM »
Safety trumps etiquette. That lady was in no danger, but your dog was. There's absolutely no reason to try to be polite or sweet or mild with someone who kicks at a dog, regardless of whether they actually manage to hit it. Especially when said dog is on a leash and is doing literally nothing to that person. I'm shocked, honestly, that she had the nerve to do that and then call it a beast. It doesn't matter if she has a phobia, that's her problem to deal with. You don't kick animals who are doing no harm to you, especially someone else's pet.

I'm even more shocked that kicking was her first reaction. If she was phobic she could just as well have stepped back or said "please don't come near". What a horrible person.
How was the dog in such immediate danger for it to be a 'safety trumps etiquette' situation? I don't see how the dog was in any danger from an an elderly woman standing a good distance away - and backing away - making feeble air kicks. She didn't actually kick or attempt to kick the dog. And the woman had no way of knowing whether the dog - who was actively trying to get to her, not "literally doing nothing" - presented a danger to her or not.

Like I said, I don't condone her behaviour. At all. But I think it's important to make a distinction between actual physical abuse (kicking an animal) and what the woman did.

Someone threatening you is danger and kicking at someone is a threat. It's no different than if a person punches the air at you or makes other threatening moves.
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree, because I really can't see any comparison. Threatening behaviour depends on context. A mugger waving a fist is a threat. A toddler waving a fist is not. You are not automatically in danger every time someone waves a fist while they're around you. The woman felt threatened and reacted very badly, but there's no evidence she presented any threat to the dog.

The same argument could be said for the dog. The dog was restrained and under control and posed no threat. Yes, people have been jumped on and nipped by dogs, but it doesn't mean they have to overreact everytime a dog glances in their direction.

Totally agreed.  And if all the dog did was glance in her direction you'd have an excellent point.

But the reality is a 70 lb dog did more then glance, it was actively trying to get towards her (only stopped by a leash) and was displaying body language that indicated it was worked up (sure happy worked up to the owner, but undefinable worked up to a stranger).  She was stepping backwards, away from the animal.

So the "threat" being posed was by the advancing one (the dog) not the retreating one (the woman).

Her "kicks" were defensive not aggressive.  She made it clear via her actions of stepping backwards she did not want to attack the animal, she wanted to be far away from the dog and wanted the dog kept away from her.

Fleur

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Re: Please Don't Kick My Dog...
« Reply #55 on: December 05, 2012, 11:23:58 AM »


I have to say I agree with Willy Nilly. Sorry, OP, but I think that you were a bit rude to the woman. Not horridly so, and I can sort of understand your frustration. But as someone who has been jumped by uncontrolled dogs in the past, I can see where she is coming from. Not that I'm saying that you'd have let that happen! But she was just lashing out, from fear, and your dog was in no danger. It would have been far more gracious just to let it go.

CaptainObvious

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Re: Please Don't Kick My Dog...
« Reply #56 on: December 05, 2012, 11:26:31 AM »
Safety trumps etiquette. That lady was in no danger, but your dog was. There's absolutely no reason to try to be polite or sweet or mild with someone who kicks at a dog, regardless of whether they actually manage to hit it. Especially when said dog is on a leash and is doing literally nothing to that person. I'm shocked, honestly, that she had the nerve to do that and then call it a beast. It doesn't matter if she has a phobia, that's her problem to deal with. You don't kick animals who are doing no harm to you, especially someone else's pet.

I'm even more shocked that kicking was her first reaction. If she was phobic she could just as well have stepped back or said "please don't come near". What a horrible person.
How was the dog in such immediate danger for it to be a 'safety trumps etiquette' situation? I don't see how the dog was in any danger from an an elderly woman standing a good distance away - and backing away - making feeble air kicks. She didn't actually kick or attempt to kick the dog. And the woman had no way of knowing whether the dog - who was actively trying to get to her, not "literally doing nothing" - presented a danger to her or not.

Like I said, I don't condone her behaviour. At all. But I think it's important to make a distinction between actual physical abuse (kicking an animal) and what the woman did.

Someone threatening you is danger and kicking at someone is a threat. It's no different than if a person punches the air at you or makes other threatening moves.
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree, because I really can't see any comparison. Threatening behaviour depends on context. A mugger waving a fist is a threat. A toddler waving a fist is not. You are not automatically in danger every time someone waves a fist while they're around you. The woman felt threatened and reacted very badly, but there's no evidence she presented any threat to the dog.

The same argument could be said for the dog. The dog was restrained and under control and posed no threat. Yes, people have been jumped on and nipped by dogs, but it doesn't mean they have to overreact everytime a dog glances in their direction.

Totally agreed.  And if all the dog did was glance in her direction you'd have an excellent point.

But the reality is a 70 lb dog did more then glance, it was actively trying to get towards her (only stopped by a leash) and was displaying body language that indicated it was worked up (sure happy worked up to the owner, but undefinable worked up to a stranger).  She was stepping backwards, away from the animal.

So the "threat" being posed was by the advancing one (the dog) not the retreating one (the woman).

Her "kicks" were defensive not aggressive.  She made it clear via her actions of stepping backwards she did not want to attack the animal, she wanted to be far away from the dog and wanted the dog kept away from her.

I think the actions of the dog are getting more and more exaggerated as the thread continues. The dog did not lunge, he moved in her direction and the OP pulled him back. The dog was at no time a threat.

O'Dell

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Re: Please Don't Kick My Dog...
« Reply #57 on: December 05, 2012, 11:35:12 AM »

I think the actions of the dog are getting more and more exaggerated as the thread continues. The dog did not lunge, he moved in her direction and the OP pulled him back. The dog was at no time a threat.

Thanks for pointing that out. I realize now that I confused the dog veering toward the woman and the dog only lunging at squirrels.

This thread highlights for me how much more conversant I am in dog etiquette than human etiquette. The dog seems to have not perceived a threat and moved on. Yet here all us humans are thrashing out the last details and speculating and misinterpreting and.... Sometimes this sort of thing brings home to me exactly why dog owners think I'm weird when I interact with their dog while ignoring the human.

I don't like all dogs, but I do like all dogs more than humans. :P
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WillyNilly

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Re: Please Don't Kick My Dog...
« Reply #58 on: December 05, 2012, 11:41:47 AM »
<snip>
I think the actions of the dog are getting more and more exaggerated as the thread continues. The dog did not lunge, he moved in her direction and the OP pulled him back. The dog was at no time a threat.

From the OP:

...The walk was uneventful, but as we were on our way to the car we passed by a woman who looked to be in her 60's. Daisy loves people, and she started her whole tail-wagging "happy to meet you" dance, trying to lead me over to greet the woman.  I didn't let her, and she was about ten feet away as we passed, but I think this lady must be afraid of dogs or something, because she took a step back before aiming two kicks in the dog's direction.  The kicks were kinda feeble, but it got my back up. 

...Now, Daisy is about 70 pounds and admittedly looks a bit intimidating to people who first meet her, but she's really just a big wimp.  I can't totally blame the lady for her reaction, especially it she was afraid of dogs, but I was angry just the same.

I never said the dog "lunged" but the OP does tell us the dog was actively trying to get near the woman, heading in the woman's direction and it was only because the OP restrained the dog that she didn't get up close to the woman.

The OP also admits her dog is 70 lbs and intimidating looking.  And the woman appeared to be in her 60's.

So no I don't think the dog's actions are being exaggerated.  If anything I think the woman's actions are being exaggerated.  She was visibly frightened, she was stepping backwards and her kicks were into the air 10 feet away and "feeble" and while she may have been in great shape for 60 (which we don't even know) the reality is the average American non-dog-person mid-60's woman is not really all that physically able to protect themselves against a 70lb strange dog.

I think its important to note too, that while the OP had her dog under control the woman didn't know that. It was totally an act of trust towards a total stranger.

And the sequence of events was:
1. 70lb dog tries to advance towards woman
2. Woman steps back, clearly scared and feebly kicks at air
3. Dog owner verbally attacks woman instead of reassuring her the dog was under control and harmless
4. Woman reacts verbally in the negative.

So we have two acts of aggression coming at the woman from her point of view and two acts of response from the woman.  At no point did the woman initiate - she didn't initiate physical interaction, nor did she initiate verbal interaction.  All the woman did was react.

jmarvellous

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Re: Please Don't Kick My Dog...
« Reply #59 on: December 05, 2012, 11:47:02 AM »
When I was young and terrified of dogs, I was taught to raise up one leg quickly and basically show the dog I was defending myself (and particularly my vulnerable abdomen). Sometimes, being terrified as I was, this probably looked more like frantic flailing or kicking. Something about this posture, I was told, makes the dog back off. Whether that's true or false, it does make me feel better about an oncoming, enthusiastic dog, even now when I'm less frightened in general.

I think the OP overreacted, but I've heard much worse from people who can't handle the thought that anyone might be afraid of their precious pup, even when we weren't in the same room.