Please Don't Kick My Dog...

[CaptainObvious]

<snip>

I think the actions of the dog are getting more and more exaggerated as the thread continues. The dog did not lunge, he moved in her direction and the OP pulled him back. The dog was at no time a threat.

From the OP:

...The walk was uneventful, but as we were on our way to the car we passed by a woman who looked to be in her 60's. Daisy loves people, and she started her whole tail-wagging "happy to meet you" dance, trying to lead me over to greet the woman.  I didn't let her, and she was about ten feet away as we passed, but I think this lady must be afraid of dogs or something, because she took a step back before aiming two kicks in the dog's direction.  The kicks were kinda feeble, but it got my back up. 

...Now, Daisy is about 70 pounds and admittedly looks a bit intimidating to people who first meet her, but she's really just a big wimp.  I can't totally blame the lady for her reaction, especially it she was afraid of dogs, but I was angry just the same.

I never said the dog "lunged" but the OP does tell us the dog was actively trying to get near the woman, heading in the woman's direction and it was only because the OP restrained the dog that she didn't get up close to the woman.

The OP also admits her dog is 70 lbs and intimidating looking.  And the woman appeared to be in her 60's.

So no I don't think the dog's actions are being exaggerated.  If anything I think the woman's actions are being exaggerated.  She was visibly frightened, she was stepping backwards and her kicks were into the air 10 feet away and "feeble" and while she may have been in great shape for 60 (which we don't even know) the reality is the average American non-dog-person mid-60's woman is not really all that physically able to protect themselves against a 70lb strange dog.

I think its important to note too, that while the OP had her dog under control the woman didn't know that. It was totally an act of trust towards a total stranger.

And the sequence of events was:
1. 70lb dog tries to advance towards woman
2. Woman steps back, clearly scared and feebly kicks at air
3. Dog owner verbally attacks woman instead of reassuring her the dog was under control and harmless
4. Woman reacts verbally in the negative.

So we have two acts of aggression coming at the woman from her point of view and two acts of response from the woman.  At no point did the woman initiate - she didn't initiate physical interaction, nor did she initiate verbal interaction.  All the woman did was react.

The entire act of walking a dog involves you controlling where the dog goes. It tries to sniff trees, you pull it along, it tries to sniff another dog, you pull it along. No one allows a dog to go wherever it wants. The dog more than likely took a few steps towards the woman, the OP pulled the leash a bit and kept walking. You seem hell-bent on making it as though the OP's dog was aggressive and a threat.

[WillyNilly]

The entire act of walking a dog involves you controlling where the dog goes. It tries to sniff trees, you pull it along, it tries to sniff another dog, you pull it along. No one allows a dog to go wherever it wants. The dog more than likely took a few steps towards the woman, the OP pulled the leash a bit and kept walking. You seem hell-bent on making it as though the OP's dog was aggressive and a threat.

That's because the bolded sentence could not be more untrue if you added outrageous details including aliens and conspiracy theory's.  Hundreds of thousands of people on a daily basis let their dogs go where ever they want.  The woman had no way of knowing the OP was one of the responsible ones who doesn't do that.

I would wager to bet way more dog owners let their dogs approach strangers then terrified old women run up and attack leashed dogs.

[CaptainObvious]

The entire act of walking a dog involves you controlling where the dog goes. It tries to sniff trees, you pull it along, it tries to sniff another dog, you pull it along. No one allows a dog to go wherever it wants. The dog more than likely took a few steps towards the woman, the OP pulled the leash a bit and kept walking. You seem hell-bent on making it as though the OP's dog was aggressive and a threat.

That's because the bolded sentence could not be more untrue if you added outrageous details including aliens and conspiracy theory's.  Hundreds of thousands of people on a daily basis let their dogs go where ever they want.  The woman had no way of knowing the OP was one of the responsible ones who doesn't do that.

I would wager to bet way more dog owners let their dogs approach strangers then terrified old women run up and attack leashed dogs.

I'm not going to argue with you, nor put up with your snarky and sarcastic comments. You are unwilling to budge on your position, so anything that I say isn't going to change your mind.

[Betelnut]

The entire act of walking a dog involves you controlling where the dog goes. It tries to sniff trees, you pull it along, it tries to sniff another dog, you pull it along. No one allows a dog to go wherever it wants. The dog more than likely took a few steps towards the woman, the OP pulled the leash a bit and kept walking. You seem hell-bent on making it as though the OP's dog was aggressive and a threat.

That's because the bolded sentence could not be more untrue if you added outrageous details including aliens and conspiracy theory's.  Hundreds of thousands of people on a daily basis let their dogs go where ever they want.  The woman had no way of knowing the OP was one of the responsible ones who doesn't do that.

I would wager to bet way more dog owners let their dogs approach strangers then terrified old women run up and attack leashed dogs.

I agree with Willy Nilly.  In my experience many, if not most, dogs are not properly restrained by their owners.  It is totally within reason that someone seeing a dog on a leash would think that the dog could and will initiate contact.

[CaptainObvious]

The entire act of walking a dog involves you controlling where the dog goes. It tries to sniff trees, you pull it along, it tries to sniff another dog, you pull it along. No one allows a dog to go wherever it wants. The dog more than likely took a few steps towards the woman, the OP pulled the leash a bit and kept walking. You seem hell-bent on making it as though the OP's dog was aggressive and a threat.

That's because the bolded sentence could not be more untrue if you added outrageous details including aliens and conspiracy theory's.  Hundreds of thousands of people on a daily basis let their dogs go where ever they want.  The woman had no way of knowing the OP was one of the responsible ones who doesn't do that.

I would wager to bet way more dog owners let their dogs approach strangers then terrified old women run up and attack leashed dogs.

I agree with Willy Nilly.  In my experience many, if not most, dogs are not properly restrained by their owners.  It is totally within reason that someone seeing a dog on a leash would think that the dog could and will initiate contact.

In my experience the opposite is true, so I guess we are at an impasse.

[CakeBeret]

I think that fear makes people do funny things.

I have a relative who lives on a farm and has chickens. One rooster is particularly mean, and one day attacked me. It's a rooster, it's not like it could do me serious harm, but I did feel 'under attack' and instinctively kicked it. I didn't intend to at all, but in the heat of the moment, it happened.

I think this lady is probably quite scared of dogs, and was instinctively trying to make a "stay away"/"back off" gesture. I think the OP had every right to be annoyed by this, but I think that being sharp with the lady was out of line. I think the OP should have said something to her in a soothing tone: "Please don't be alarmed. She's excited and wants to meet you, but I promise I won't let her near you."

[AylaM]

The entire act of walking a dog involves you controlling where the dog goes. It tries to sniff trees, you pull it along, it tries to sniff another dog, you pull it along. No one allows a dog to go wherever it wants. The dog more than likely took a few steps towards the woman, the OP pulled the leash a bit and kept walking. You seem hell-bent on making it as though the OP's dog was aggressive and a threat.

That's because the bolded sentence could not be more untrue if you added outrageous details including aliens and conspiracy theory's.  Hundreds of thousands of people on a daily basis let their dogs go where ever they want.  The woman had no way of knowing the OP was one of the responsible ones who doesn't do that.

I would wager to bet way more dog owners let their dogs approach strangers then terrified old women run up and attack leashed dogs.

I agree with Willy Nilly.  In my experience many, if not most, dogs are not properly restrained by their owners.  It is totally within reason that someone seeing a dog on a leash would think that the dog could and will initiate contact.

In my experience the opposite is true, so I guess we are at an impasse.

My experience is that most people do not suitable restrain their dogs at all times.  But also that if I asked, they could reign them in more because they are not that out of control.

So if I came across a dog that was too close for comfort, I usually assume that the owner will pull them back if I ask.  So I ask.

She didn't ask.  She kicked at the dog. 


Also, I'd like to add that I don't like the argument that it was a feeble kick from an old lady in the dog's direction.  If the dog moving towards her is enough of a threat that she feels the need to kick, why isn't her kick enough of a threat that the owner can call her on it?

[BarensMom]

The entire act of walking a dog involves you controlling where the dog goes. It tries to sniff trees, you pull it along, it tries to sniff another dog, you pull it along. No one allows a dog to go wherever it wants. The dog more than likely took a few steps towards the woman, the OP pulled the leash a bit and kept walking. You seem hell-bent on making it as though the OP's dog was aggressive and a threat.

That's because the bolded sentence could not be more untrue if you added outrageous details including aliens and conspiracy theory's.  Hundreds of thousands of people on a daily basis let their dogs go where ever they want.  The woman had no way of knowing the OP was one of the responsible ones who doesn't do that.

I would wager to bet way more dog owners let their dogs approach strangers then terrified old women run up and attack leashed dogs.

I agree with Willy Nilly.  In my experience many, if not most, dogs are not properly restrained by their owners.  It is totally within reason that someone seeing a dog on a leash would think that the dog could and will initiate contact.

In my experience the opposite is true, so I guess we are at an impasse.

I actually agree with both views.  A dog can be uncontrolled while on a leash, especially those retractable ones, while an unleashed dog can be completely under voice control.  The problem lies in the simple fact that dogs are unpredictable creatures, and no one knows how they will react in every circumstance. 

The woman in the OP's story had no way of knowing whether the OP would be able to control her 70-lb dog.  I could understand her doing what she mistakingly thought would ward off the dog.   However, if she has a real dog phobia, she should go to those areas where dogs are prohibited.

I've had people react badly to Baren, even though he is just love and snot held together by fur.  He is a big dog and, for people who have phobias or bad experiences, it's understandable.  As long as they don't actually kick or hit him, I will just reassure them that he's under control and move away as quickly as I can.

[shivering]

It sounds like both sides overreacted a little, but no one was in the wrong. If I was OP, I probably would've said something "don't worry, I have her under control and will keep her away" and kept walking.

The woman saw Daisy focus on her and got nervous. I'm sure Daisy's size played a part. The feeble kicks were probably just a defensive reaction. She was 10 feet away. She wasn't actively coming after the dog.                                   

[Wordgeek]

Again, stop squabbling like children.  If you can't stay civil, stay out of the conversation.  That applies just as much to passionate subjects as to tamer discussions.

Govern yourselves, or be governed.

ETA Captain Obvious will not be participating in the thread (or the forum) for a little while.  I don't see anyone else who needs a spanking although Willy Nilly is getting close.  There may be others.

I'll reopen the thread after a few hours, to give people a chance to catch up on their reading and to cool down a bit.

ETA 2 After reading the thread, it seems that WillyNilly does need a little break.

Thread reopened.  Play nice.

[Gyburc]

  I said, not in a sharp tone, "Ma'am, please don't try to kick my dog.  I understand you don't want to be jumped on or knocked down, but I've got her under control, and we're leaving.  She won't bother you."

The lady actually seemed a bit mollified, but said, "Just keep that beast away from me."

OP, I think this was fine. You were polite, referred to her concerns, made your point, and she accepted it. I wouldn't say that this was a particularly friendly exchange, but I don't think etiquette requires us to be friendly to perfect strangers.  Just to add, I am quite wary around dogs myself.

[CharlieBraun]

OP - I think you did rather well under the circumstances, and I think you did this woman (and your family) a huge favor by "ID-ing" her so that others can avoid her.

While it's rather impossible to avoid being around dogs in park settings, I disagree with the PPs who feel that dogs are anywhere and everywhere.  Why, I spent an hour in a lovely grocery store last evening with nary a wagging tail about!

Poor lady, though.  Something unpleasant must have happened to her in her past that involved a dog, and that's never nice to contemplate.

[ettiquit]

If we can forgive the woman's reaction based on an assumed phobia, I think we can forgive the OP for her reaction as well.  Just as the woman had no idea if the dog was going to actually lunge at her, the OP had no idea if the woman intended on trying to harm the dog.  I think people are more unpredictable than dogs, and since the woman chose not to use her words to convey her concern, there was no good way to interpret her intent.

I'm not finding any rudeness in the OP's response.  The woman kicked at her dog.  The OP asked her to please not do that, and then reassured her that she had control over the dog.  There are so many ways the woman could have responded to that politely, but she chose to snap at the OP and call her dog a "beast". 

I do feel bad for people with dog phobias, because the vast majority of dogs they encounter are likely completely harmless.  I was bitten (unprovoked) by a dog when I was a kid, but for some reason it only made me afraid of that dog.  I have two dogs, and they can be spazzy, so when I walk them I keep very tight control when we happen upon other people. I would be annoyed and a bit bewildered if someone kicked at my dogs as we walked by, although I would probably just give them a "do you eat paint chips?" look and be on my way to avoid any confrontation.

[Oh Joy]

Given that the lady was ten feet away from the dog, I see this as similar to making a silent obscene gesture.

I likely would have ignored it.

[ettiquit]

The entire act of walking a dog involves you controlling where the dog goes. It tries to sniff trees, you pull it along, it tries to sniff another dog, you pull it along. No one allows a dog to go wherever it wants. The dog more than likely took a few steps towards the woman, the OP pulled the leash a bit and kept walking. You seem hell-bent on making it as though the OP's dog was aggressive and a threat.

That's because the bolded sentence could not be more untrue if you added outrageous details including aliens and conspiracy theory's.  Hundreds of thousands of people on a daily basis let their dogs go where ever they want.  The woman had no way of knowing the OP was one of the responsible ones who doesn't do that.

I would wager to bet way more dog owners let their dogs approach strangers then terrified old women run up and attack leashed dogs.

Hundreds of thousands?  I'm guessing there has been studies done about this to get those numbers?  It'd be interesting to see research on this sort of thing to get an idea of the percentage of responsible dog owners compared to the irresponsible ones.