Handicapped Stall:One Handicap trumps another?

[Outdoor Girl]

Let's say there are six stalls, 5 regular, 1 handicapped. There is a line, so all stalls are constantly in use. Assuming people going steadily in and out without any extreme delays, which could happen in a regular or handicapped stall. If a handicapped stall opens up, and a handicapped woman is within the first six people in the line, I think it would be very kind to let her go in, as a regular should be open shortly. However even if the first person in line does not do this and instead uses the handicapped stall, the handicapped woman will be the very next one able to use it, as the remaining people ahead of her would have already entered the newly opened regular stalls.

That means that at most, the handicapped woman is delayed by one person. If the woman is far back enough in line (say number 20), it doesn't make as much sense to let her jump the line due to unfairness, as she wouldn't have gotten into a stall based on her current line position, even if all six of the stalls were handicapped stalls.

Of course, I'll let anyone who is about to have an accident go ahead of me, handicapped or not. But they have to say something, I'm not a mind reader.

I agree!  And you made it make sense, unlike the 5 times I tried to type it out.   

[rashea]

IMHO people who need the handicapped stall wait in line with everyone else.  Once they get toward the front of the line the people ahead of them may choose to let them go as soon as the stall is next free, but otherwise they get to the front of the line and then let others ahead of them (for the regular stalls) until a stall opens up they can use.  Yes, it's *nice* for people to let them cut ahead, but it's not rude not to unless the handicap also means they can't wait.

I end up using the handicap stalls all the time now - they're often the location for the infant changing tables, and also the only stall I can fit both me and Babybartfast when she needs to go.  I would assume someone with a visible handicap is capable of waiting the same way anyone else would unless they told me otherwise.

I completely disagree that a handicapped person should wait in line for the ONE stall for them while everyone else has several stalls.  If it comes open and they are waiting in line, then they should move to the front when the handicapped opens.  No one knows their disability.  I could never stand there and take the handicap stall knowing someone disabled was  waiting for the one stall they can use.

I don't think that handicapped people actually have to wait significantly longer than anyone else to get a stall, due to how the system works.

Here's how I see it:

Let's say there are six stalls, 5 regular, 1 handicapped. There is a line, so all stalls are constantly in use. Assuming people going steadily in and out without any extreme delays, which could happen in a regular or handicapped stall. If a handicapped stall opens up, and a handicapped woman is within the first six people in the line, I think it would be very kind to let her go in, as a regular should be open shortly. However even if the first person in line does not do this and instead uses the handicapped stall, the handicapped woman will be the very next one able to use it, as the remaining people ahead of her would have already entered the newly opened regular stalls.

That means that at most, the handicapped woman is delayed by one person. If the woman is far back enough in line (say number 20), it doesn't make as much sense to let her jump the line due to unfairness, as she wouldn't have gotten into a stall based on her current line position, even if all six of the stalls were handicapped stalls.

Of course, I'll let anyone who is about to have an accident go ahead of me, handicapped or not. But they have to say something, I'm not a mind reader.

You know, it makes perfect sense. And it still doesn't match with the reality I've experienced. I agree that being in a wheelchair shouldn't mean you get to jump the whole line, though I think it's a kindness to leave them the stall if you know a regular stall is about to open up. I think the problem with your explanation as it applies to real life is that often people will take the HC stall when they are doing something that takes longer than average. Which does mean that people with disabilities do wait longer on average (in my experience with both).

That still doesn't mean I think the person in the wheelchair gets to jump a 20 person line. But I know my own experience has made me more aware of how little of our world is accessible (this depends on where you live) and the incredible resistance to increasing accessibility. So, I tend to think that cutting in line is a perk I'm willing to extend to someone I see. I don't think it's rude not to, but it's a kindness to do so.

[sparksals]

IMHO people who need the handicapped stall wait in line with everyone else.  Once they get toward the front of the line the people ahead of them may choose to let them go as soon as the stall is next free, but otherwise they get to the front of the line and then let others ahead of them (for the regular stalls) until a stall opens up they can use.  Yes, it's *nice* for people to let them cut ahead, but it's not rude not to unless the handicap also means they can't wait.

I end up using the handicap stalls all the time now - they're often the location for the infant changing tables, and also the only stall I can fit both me and Babybartfast when she needs to go.  I would assume someone with a visible handicap is capable of waiting the same way anyone else would unless they told me otherwise.

I completely disagree that a handicapped person should wait in line for the ONE stall for them while everyone else has several stalls.  If it comes open and they are waiting in line, then they should move to the front when the handicapped opens.  No one knows their disability.  I could never stand there and take the handicap stall knowing someone disabled was  waiting for the one stall they can use.

I see what you're saying, but we've talked about invisible disabilities in this thread too.  If someone with a disability moves to the front of the line to use the handicap accessible stall, how can they be sure they haven't gotten in front of another person in line with a disability?

That is a good point.  Although, if someone has a visible disability, the right thing to do is to allow them to go first.  If someone has an invisible disability, then I guess they have to speak up. 

[sparksals]

IMHO people who need the handicapped stall wait in line with everyone else.  Once they get toward the front of the line the people ahead of them may choose to let them go as soon as the stall is next free, but otherwise they get to the front of the line and then let others ahead of them (for the regular stalls) until a stall opens up they can use.  Yes, it's *nice* for people to let them cut ahead, but it's not rude not to unless the handicap also means they can't wait.

I end up using the handicap stalls all the time now - they're often the location for the infant changing tables, and also the only stall I can fit both me and Babybartfast when she needs to go.  I would assume someone with a visible handicap is capable of waiting the same way anyone else would unless they told me otherwise.

I completely disagree that a handicapped person should wait in line for the ONE stall for them while everyone else has several stalls.  If it comes open and they are waiting in line, then they should move to the front when the handicapped opens.  No one knows their disability.  I could never stand there and take the handicap stall knowing someone disabled was  waiting for the one stall they can use.

I don't think that handicapped people actually have to wait significantly longer than anyone else to get a stall, due to how the system works.

Here's how I see it:

Let's say there are six stalls, 5 regular, 1 handicapped. There is a line, so all stalls are constantly in use. Assuming people going steadily in and out without any extreme delays, which could happen in a regular or handicapped stall. If a handicapped stall opens up, and a handicapped woman is within the first six people in the line, I think it would be very kind to let her go in, as a regular should be open shortly. However even if the first person in line does not do this and instead uses the handicapped stall, the handicapped woman will be the very next one able to use it, as the remaining people ahead of her would have already entered the newly opened regular stalls.

That means that at most, the handicapped woman is delayed by one person. If the woman is far back enough in line (say number 20), it doesn't make as much sense to let her jump the line due to unfairness, as she wouldn't have gotten into a stall based on her current line position, even if all six of the stalls were handicapped stalls.

Of course, I'll let anyone who is about to have an accident go ahead of me, handicapped or not. But they have to say something, I'm not a mind reader.

You know, it makes perfect sense. And it still doesn't match with the reality I've experienced. I agree that being in a wheelchair shouldn't mean you get to jump the whole line, though I think it's a kindness to leave them the stall if you know a regular stall is about to open up. I think the problem with your explanation as it applies to real life is that often people will take the HC stall when they are doing something that takes longer than average. Which does mean that people with disabilities do wait longer on average (in my experience with both).

That still doesn't mean I think the person in the wheelchair gets to jump a 20 person line. But I know my own experience has made me more aware of how little of our world is accessible (this depends on where you live) and the incredible resistance to increasing accessibility. So, I tend to think that cutting in line is a perk I'm willing to extend to someone I see. I don't think it's rude not to, but it's a kindness to do so.

I agree with this.  I was temporarily disabled and saw it from the side of someone with limited access and ability.  Unless one has experienced it, the average person does not realize how inaccessible day to day life is for the disabled. 

[TurtleDove]

Although, if someone has a visible disability, the right thing to do is to allow them to go first.  If someone has an invisible disability, then I guess they have to speak up.

I think it is kind to allow someone ahead of you, but I don't agree with the idea that it is "right" to allow them to go first.  The person ahead in line might have an invisible disability; might really have to go bad (!); might be rushing to get a bus; ___________.  That person was there in line first.  While I sympathise with the disabled, I do not believe it is a "get out of lines free" pass.  Lots of people have lots of reasons why they would legitimately be entitled to a break.  I strongly believe first come first served is the best way for society to deal with these situations, unless a person actually asks for special treatment, which is what asking to skip ahead in line would be.

[DottyG]

Unless one has experienced it, the average person does not realize how inaccessible day to day life is for the disabled.

This is so very true that I wanted to repeat it - and bold it.  Most people really do not realize that the world we live in is not at all as "accessible" as they think it is - or are told it is.

[RebeccainGA]

Unless one has experienced it, the average person does not realize how inaccessible day to day life is for the disabled.

This is so very true that I wanted to repeat it - and bold it.  Most people really do not realize that the world we live in is not at all as "accessible" as they think it is - or are told it is.

Not to pile on, but just this weekend DP and I left a store nearly in tears after having anticipated the visit for some time (very advertised at local events and such) when the place was so crowded and narrow with stuff (not with people) that we weren't able to get more than 10 feet in. The kicker was the employee who saw us, offered to move a few things, then moved one small candle holder that wasn't in fact in the way, then acted like we were inconveniencing HIM and stalked off in a huff. It's the law, it's good business, and it's the way people should be treated, and yet he was a total jerk - and after I took DP back to the car to cool off (she was seriously in tears by the time we backed out of the place - there wasn't enough room to even turn around) I went in and told them how humiliating it was to not only be denied access by design (which happens regularly, and thankfully she can walk a step or two so we often get her out, hoist the chair up, and then put her back in the chair) but denied access by a fellow human who acts like we were trash he didn't want in there, anyway. Management wasn't moved. I won't go back there. If I could tell the world, I would. Jerks.

Accessibility for disabled people is accessibility for everyone - fat people, families with kids in strollers, people with aging knees and backs who'd prefer not to take the stairs, and on and on. It's nice, it's necessary, and it should be the norm, but isn't.

[JenJay]

If I'm the next one in line when a large stall comes available I glance back at the line and say "I can wait one more turn if someone would like the larger stall." Sometimes someone will speak up (usually a lady with a stroller or toddler) but usually not, so I go ahead.

[camlan]

Somewhere upthread, someone mentioned that they seldom see people with disabilities out and about. I don't remember who said it and I don't want to seem like I'm picking on them. Because they spoke the truth--you do seldom see people with disabilities in our society.

The question is, do they stay home because they are disabled? or do they stay home because their mobility is severely limited once they are out of the house?

If you can't get into the store or the restaurant, you can't be seen there. If you can't use the handicapped restroom stalls, you won't be seen at the museum, or the theater or the concert hall.

It is very possible for a building to meet every bit of the code for disabled access, and still not be accessible for the needs of a particular individual. Grab bars in a restroom might meet code, but be too high or too low for someone. The wheelchair height drinking fountain might be too low for a very tall person in a wheelchair, or too high for a very short person, or the wheelchair itself might make access difficult or impossible. If you can't drive, your ability to get around is limited, especially in the US, where public transportation is limited. The cities with good public transportation, like NYC and Boston and Chicago, tend to have older stations with limited or no disabled access (they are working on it, but retrofitting 150 year old underground stations isn't easy).

There are an incredible number of factors that make everyday life difficult for the disabled. Not having enough handicapped bathroom stalls is just one thing.

[jaxsue]

I am a vendor and work in several Walmart stores in NJ.

I use the facilities, of course, and one of the stores was smart: they have 2 handicapped stalls! And, the changing table is not in them; it's in the main part of the bathroom, where it should be.

[DottyG]

Yay for Walmart!  (I'm saying that completely seriously.  It's so nice to hear that a company IS recognizing the problem and is doing what they can to address it.)

[whatsanenigma]

It DOES take more than a minute or two.  Hence the thought. 

ETA:  They could easily use the other stalls to change; there's room, they're not tiny.  There is an entire bathroom just off our room ten feet away that they could go into, close the door, and change in there (it's a single, but is pretty roomy). 

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree as I do think biological need trumps almost any other possible use for an accessible stall.

I personally would really like to know why they need a bathroom stall to change in at all.  I sing in a church choir that wears robes, and they just go on over the top of whatever we are wearing.  Sometimes we will take off an outer shirt or jacket or sweater or something, but nobody ever gets to the point where it would be inappropriate for mixed company.  There is a story that goes around about how years ago, before we got decent air conditioning, some of the women would take off their dresses and just put the robes on over their slips, when it was extremely hot, but nobody knows any of these people personally and we certainly have never seen it done.

If it is to do with needing a mirror, that also can be fixed easily without needing a bathroom stall.  We have several in and around the choir room, at my church.  I think that in this particular case, these women are probably being special snowflakes, due to the fact that I can't imagine why they would need a bathroom stall at all, and if there really is a good reason, I would be curious about what it is! If there is no good reason, or a reason that can be easily fixed (by hanging up a mirror in the choir room, for example) then I wouldn't have an issue with somebody telling them not to put the robes on in the bathroom stall, though I hesitate to make a blanket statement that "biological" needs always trump the "non-biological" ones.  That is probably true most of the time but I would imagine there are exceptions.

[Lorelei_Evil]

Unless one has experienced it, the average person does not realize how inaccessible day to day life is for the disabled.

This is so very true that I wanted to repeat it - and bold it.  Most people really do not realize that the world we live in is not at all as "accessible" as they think it is - or are told it is.

POD.  I have many days, especially in cold weather, that it is very hard to climb stairs, up and down off a curb to cross the street, and navigate an escalator.  I have to be deliberate and step carefully, and if you berate me, honk at me, or otherwise try to rush me it is very likely that I will fall. 

I now hate to shop in stores, especially grocery stores, because of the crowding, pushing, and other antics.  I have been rammed with carts, knocked down by people yapping on their phones, and been yelled at by inconsiderate jerks so many times over the last decade I've lost count. 

A little decency and niceness isn't an unreasonable request.  I'm dreading having to go back on public transit next year. 

[jaxsue]

Yay for Walmart!  (I'm saying that completely seriously.  It's so nice to hear that a company IS recognizing the problem and is doing what they can to address it.)

Yeah, I have to say that the WM's, at least where I live, take "accessible" seriously.

[Oh Joy]

I actually see the handicap as essentially irrelevant.

Usually there's one line waiting for all of the stalls.  Say there are three regular and one accessible.  When a door opens, the stall 'belongs' to the next person in line.  They can either take it, or refuse it (any reason - physical handicap, don't like the location of the first stall, fear the number three) and offer it to the next person in line and retain their space at the head of the line for the next stall, or the next, or the next...until one they want becomes available.

Of course, it may be courteous to offer to let someone behind you in line move in front of you, for any reason you think they may appreciate it - such as a visible handicap.