Re: Letting an adult "suffer the consequences" UPDATE Pg. 8

[Nora]

I agree with the PPs who've said this is not joking, it's bullying, and granddad needs a reality check.

[kherbert05]

If they decide to go with the tell the truth Granddad is a liar method, they still should not leave an upset Taylor with her grandfather. The man has proven he doesn't get kids. He might lose it and accidentally hurt the child - by shaking her for example

I think this is an exaggeration. And what we might call an "interesting assumption." I don't know how in the world you get to this from the kind of game-playing Grandpa is doing!

Because people get upset and scared when a small child is crying/having a tantrum. In an effort to get the child to stop, they can accidentally hurt the child. I'm not talking about someone that likes to hurt kids, but a frustrated adult losing control. The fact this man doesn't get that the child is going to get this upset tells me he doesn't get kids.

Years ago Sis and I were out with her inlaws. Suddenly Sis jumped up from the table and yelled at me to come with her. We went out of the restaurant into the mall. 2 teenagers were holding down a 4 - 5 yo kid with their hands over his mouth. We got them off the child, who then was gasping for air. The older brothers were supposed to be watching the child, while Dad bought something. The kid started tantruming. The older boys tried to stop him from screaming, because they were afraid of getting in trouble. They shook him - which is what sis saw through the window. Then they covered his mouth and nose to get him to stop. In their panic they didn't realize they were suffocating him. Both older boys were in tears when they realized they could have hurt their little brother.

[Hollanda]

What a nasty, nasty man.  How can anyone get pleasure out of disappointing a child? I cannot think of anything more horrible.  Of course kids need to learn that they are not going to get everything they want, but to deliberately taunt the child that way is heartless.  That said, the child's mum or dad need to have a frank talk to Taylor and explain that sometimes people are just mean and that throwing a tantrum is just giving them what they want - a reaction.  Once she realises that by not reacting to this pointless teasing, she is taking all the fun out of it for her tormentor, it will probably stop quite quickly.  Of course she should be quietly praised and rewarded when she doesn't react.
 
If that man was my FIL I would have a very hard time controlling myself.

[secretrebel]

I agree with everyone who's suggested preparing the child that grandpa doesn't tell the truth.

I'd give grandpa a headsup about this and warn him "you keep lying to Taylor. I know you think it's funny but it's not and it upsets her. If you wont stop we're gping to have to teach her not to trust what her grandpa says - and that's sad".

If he refuses to stop, then prepare the child and perhaps mock him in return.

"Hey grandpa we're going to have a huge party for your next birthday and all the out of state relations are coming... just kidding, we're not doing anything special". Maybe when he's on the receiving end he won't find it funny.

[Jones]

Well, whether or not Grampa would hurt her (accidently or on purpose), I am willing to bet that leaving him to deal with the tantrum on his own won't be a positive experience for her. Might even make it worse; what if he starts promising her new stuff to get her to stop, and she doesn't find out THAT is a lie until he's gone home and makes a phone call?

[Venus193]

Well, whether or not Grampa would hurt her (accidently or on purpose), I am willing to bet that leaving him to deal with the tantrum on his own won't be a positive experience for her. Might even make it worse; what if he starts promising her new stuff to get her to stop, and she doesn't find out THAT is a lie until he's gone home and makes a phone call?

That possibility has to be considered. 

Parents have an affirmative duty to protect their children, even from other relatives.

[artk2002]

If they decide to go with the tell the truth Granddad is a liar method, they still should not leave an upset Taylor with her grandfather. The man has proven he doesn't get kids. He might lose it and accidentally hurt the child - by shaking her for example

I think this is an exaggeration. And what we might call an "interesting assumption." I don't know how in the world you get to this from the kind of game-playing Grandpa is doing!

I agree that the "lose it and accidentally hurt the child" is an interesting assumption if we're talking about physical injury. Right now, though, he is hurting the child emotionally and he shouldn't be having any interaction with her until he learns to behave. Alone with her is completely out of the question on that basis, not on the basis that he might injure her.

[Winterlight]

Well, whether or not Grampa would hurt her (accidently or on purpose), I am willing to bet that leaving him to deal with the tantrum on his own won't be a positive experience for her. Might even make it worse; what if he starts promising her new stuff to get her to stop, and she doesn't find out THAT is a lie until he's gone home and makes a phone call?

Exactly. I think banning Grandpa from being around her until he can behave courteously seems like the best plan.

[bopper]

*I suggested limiting FIL's time with Taylor until he can be trusted to behave like an adult, but Annette and Todd are unwilling to limit MIL's time with Taylor.  It's unlikely that MIL would be able to visit without FIL.

I think they should bring this up with FIL. He doesn't get it that his behavior is wrong, but maybe the consequence of keeping his wife from her granddaughter would make an impression on him.

Another thing to consider:

It may not be fair to Grandma if she isn't able to see her granddaughter because her husband is emotionally abusive.

On the other hand, it's most certainly not fair to subject the girl to her grandfather's emotional abuse.

It might be helpful for the OP to frame it this way for her friends so they can see that they may be faced with a situation where they need to choose the lesser of two evils.

On the other hand, maybe this will spur Grandma to put some pressure on Grandpa to knock it off.

[weeblewobble]

If they decide to go with the tell the truth Granddad is a liar method, they still should not leave an upset Taylor with her grandfather. The man has proven he doesn't get kids. He might lose it and accidentally hurt the child - by shaking her for example

I think this is an exaggeration. And what we might call an "interesting assumption." I don't know how in the world you get to this from the kind of game-playing Grandpa is doing!

Because people get upset and scared when a small child is crying/having a tantrum. In an effort to get the child to stop, they can accidentally hurt the child. I'm not talking about someone that likes to hurt kids, but a frustrated adult losing control. The fact this man doesn't get that the child is going to get this upset tells me he doesn't get kids.

Years ago Sis and I were out with her inlaws. Suddenly Sis jumped up from the table and yelled at me to come with her. We went out of the restaurant into the mall. 2 teenagers were holding down a 4 - 5 yo kid with their hands over his mouth. We got them off the child, who then was gasping for air. The older brothers were supposed to be watching the child, while Dad bought something. The kid started tantruming. The older boys tried to stop him from screaming, because they were afraid of getting in trouble. They shook him - which is what sis saw through the window. Then they covered his mouth and nose to get him to stop. In their panic they didn't realize they were suffocating him. Both older boys were in tears when they realized they could have hurt their little brother.

This has nothing to do with the situation in the OP, and just adds a bit of hysteria to the conversation.

Yes, FIL has never shown signs of being physically dangerous.  He's never spanked or struck Taylor.  kherbert, as a long-time poster, I have always respected your opinion, but let's please ease away from this direction of discussion.

[SoCalVal]

I see two courses for resolution:

1)  PILs don't see Taylor until her parents either she's old enough to not take FIL seriously or until FIL stops (yes, that means MIL couldn't see her either) OR

2)  Parents train Taylor how to understand these things that come out of FILs mouth are not true, which would be unfortunate but help her not to get upset.  They'd step up the training when the PILs are due for a visit, "Imagine I'm FIL, and I tell you -- 'Taylor, we're going to Disneyland for a week!' you say, 'Not true, FIL' or look at Mom and Dad shaking their heads no at you because it's not true then go out to play" or something like that.  Basically, what a PP stated about teaching the child that FIL is not being truthful so not to believe him then get upset when it turns out to be a lie.  I've actually known an adult who pulled that on me, one of his peers (asked me if I wanted to go to a specific place, I said sure, then when we drove right past, I looked at him and he just gave me this mean-spirited grin and said he just wanted to mess with me when he asked me...I refused to hang out with him again after that -- I only did that day to be nice as he kept pestering me but, after that, I realized he was a super-butthead and I need no longer feel obligated to be nice to him).

[Lorna Mae]

Does FIL truly believe that these are what you call teachable moments? Because, depending on how old he is and who/what his influences are, he might think this really is a way to condition a child away from tantrums. I've heard of people, mostly in earlier eras, setting up situations like putting candy where a kid can reach it. Then when they give in to temptation, the adult pounces and says, "No touching stuff that's not yours. Into the corner with you."

I don't recommend that, of course; I think it's as jerkish as what's described in the OP. But it might be what FIL is trying to do. If it is, then the other adults should take that into account and tell him that a punishment that was set up is not a natural consequence.

(Also, I'm not convinced that Taylor's reactions in these scenarios are legit tantrums. Her anger is justified, even if she doesn't express it in a mature way.)

[rose red]

(Also, I'm not convinced that Taylor's reactions in these scenarios are legit tantrums. Her anger is justified, even if she doesn't express it in a mature way.)

Yeah.  I'm an adult and although I don't have screaming tantrums, I do get angry, vent, sulk, etc (though in private most of the time).  If an adult gets deeply disappointed by lies and broken promises, imagine a child's feelings.  A child is all emotions and can't control them when being set up, so it comes out as a screaming melt down.  Adults can stay away from such a person to protect themselves, but a child needs the adults in her life to protect her.  So far, she has not been protected.

[Venus193]

Someone upthread pointed out that this could create serious trust issues in the child.  Does this grandfather not understand -- or worse -- not care about that?

[LeveeWoman]

Someone upthread pointed out that this could create serious trust issues in the child.  Does this grandfather not understand -- or worse -- not care about that?

I don't think he cares. I think he likes to create drama and trauma.