Kids standing and sitting on the table

[Hmmmmm]

CakeEater, I'm not trying to argue and am asking this sincerly.  When you say having to discipline or remove a toddler from an environment is "painfull", what do you mean.

Adjectives I'd use to describe my feelings when encountered with this with my two would have been annoying, irritating, time consuming (my 10 min task now turned into a 30 min errand), dissapointing (but my dessert is so good, I don't want to leave the dinner table), or even embarrassing at times.  But I don't remember painfull.  Is it that you feel bad emotionally for the child being interrupted or is it emotionally painfull for you? 

I really am curious as I think if I better understood the the emotions of other parents dealing with this, I might be a little more sympathetic. 

[Shoo]

Obviously, letting a toddler climb on the table while you're trying to set it or eat off it isn't OK, but I do have some sympathy for Brother and SIL. It's just not as easy as 'saying no' and the kid stops whatever thing you're wanting them to stop. It's pretty painful, sometimes, and I don't think they're horrible people for not wanting to deal with that on Christmas Day. Of course they're his parents and that's their responsibility, blah, blah, but I do understand.

It is in fact that easy, and not at all painful. Unless the parents make it that way.

I agree.  My daughter was as active as they come, and we had no problem keeping her from doing the things she wasn't supposed to do.

I'm not sure you understood me. I meant that you don't just say 'no' to a toddler and they comply without protesting, and wander off happily to sit quietly with their quiet toys. There's the screaming, and the kicking, and the associated wailing and gnashing of teeth. If your kids are/were of the first variety, then you're super lucky.

My kid was of the first variety, but I don't believe luck had anything to do with it.  I believe we parented her in a way that she knew what her boundaries were, and she knew that no means no.  She wasn't a perfect child, but if we told her to do something, or not do something, she obeyed.

[bopper]

I really wanted to say, “I think you need to keep nephew away from the table and not what belongs on the table away from nephe"

Why didn't you say it?  It is not rude.

And follow it up with "Consider nipping this behavior in the bud now, it will not be so cute when he is 5.  He will learn if you are consistent in not letting him get on the table.  There are some toys in the other room, why not distract him with those?"

[snowdragon]

Obviously, letting a toddler climb on the table while you're trying to set it or eat off it isn't OK, but I do have some sympathy for Brother and SIL. It's just not as easy as 'saying no' and the kid stops whatever thing you're wanting them to stop. It's pretty painful, sometimes, and I don't think they're horrible people for not wanting to deal with that on Christmas Day. Of course they're his parents and that's their responsibility, blah, blah, but I do understand.

That's a pretty unpleasant way to have to eat your Christms dinner, though, OP, and I agree that you can ask Mum and Dad to get jr to stay off the table. I, myself, spent some of Christmas lunch with a screaming toddler in another room.

   I don't want to do deal with that, On Christmas Day or any other time, if the kid ain't mine - I did not sign up for either temper tantrums or eating off tables that have been walked on or sat on.   Teaching kids better *IS* what parents signed on for when they had the child, on Christmas Day and on all of the other 364 days of the year. 
    Is it pleasant? No, but  again, it's not everyone else's job to deal with this child on their table or to be treated as if they are hostages to an uncontrolled child, especially in their own homes and with their own possessions. So these parents don't want to deal with teaching him to stay off the table on Christmas Day - so everyone else gets to deal having their holiday dinner ruined by it.  That choice alone would make it really easy for me to step in and start enforcing the rules in the home I was defacto hosting in ( and even more easy in my own) .   
 

[Emmy]

Obviously, letting a toddler climb on the table while you're trying to set it or eat off it isn't OK, but I do have some sympathy for Brother and SIL. It's just not as easy as 'saying no' and the kid stops whatever thing you're wanting them to stop. It's pretty painful, sometimes, and I don't think they're horrible people for not wanting to deal with that on Christmas Day. Of course they're his parents and that's their responsibility, blah, blah, but I do understand.

It is in fact that easy, and not at all painful. Unless the parents make it that way.

I agree.  My daughter was as active as they come, and we had no problem keeping her from doing the things she wasn't supposed to do.

I'm not sure you understood me. I meant that you don't just say 'no' to a toddler and they comply without protesting, and wander off happily to sit quietly with their quiet toys. There's the screaming, and the kicking, and the associated wailing and gnashing of teeth. If your kids are/were of the first variety, then you're super lucky.

My kid was of the first variety, but I don't believe luck had anything to do with it.  I believe we parented her in a way that she knew what her boundaries were, and she knew that no means no.  She wasn't a perfect child, but if we told her to do something, or not do something, she obeyed.

Good parenting can only account for so much and parents can't take all the credit or blame.  Kids have different temperaments and some naturally test their boundaries a lot more than others.  Parents with more than one often talk about how much easier one child is than another.  I have to agree that it is normal for children, especially young children to test their boundaries.  I would imagine if a child has no boundaries at a young age, it will be harder to set and enforce them as they get older.

[CakeEater]

Obviously, letting a toddler climb on the table while you're trying to set it or eat off it isn't OK, but I do have some sympathy for Brother and SIL. It's just not as easy as 'saying no' and the kid stops whatever thing you're wanting them to stop. It's pretty painful, sometimes, and I don't think they're horrible people for not wanting to deal with that on Christmas Day. Of course they're his parents and that's their responsibility, blah, blah, but I do understand.

It is in fact that easy, and not at all painful. Unless the parents make it that way.

I agree.  My daughter was as active as they come, and we had no problem keeping her from doing the things she wasn't supposed to do.

I'm not sure you understood me. I meant that you don't just say 'no' to a toddler and they comply without protesting, and wander off happily to sit quietly with their quiet toys. There's the screaming, and the kicking, and the associated wailing and gnashing of teeth. If your kids are/were of the first variety, then you're super lucky.

My kid was of the first variety, but I don't believe luck had anything to do with it.  I believe we parented her in a way that she knew what her boundaries were, and she knew that no means no.  She wasn't a perfect child, but if we told her to do something, or not do something, she obeyed.

I personally know parents who have parented their kids in consistent, firm, loving ways, and said kids still do the screaming thing. In one case, they took her off quite a few different foods which magically transformed her into the kind of kid you're describing. Good/bad parenting had nothing to do with it.

Good parenting makes a difference of course, but difficult kids does not equal bad parenting in all cases.

CakeEater, I'm not trying to argue and am asking this sincerly.  When you say having to discipline or remove a toddler from an environment is "painfull", what do you mean.

Adjectives I'd use to describe my feelings when encountered with this with my two would have been annoying, irritating, time consuming (my 10 min task now turned into a 30 min errand), dissapointing (but my dessert is so good, I don't want to leave the dinner table), or even embarrassing at times.  But I don't remember painfull.  Is it that you feel bad emotionally for the child being interrupted or is it emotionally painfull for you? 

I really am curious as I think if I better understood the the emotions of other parents dealing with this, I might be a little more sympathetic. 

Yes - painful meaning all those things. Sorry, I tend to use painful to describe difficult situations like this. Wearing, maybe? Being invited with a difficult toddler (due to temperament or bad parenting as anyone likes to believe) to an event where there is a table full of pretty, new, shiny objects and having to keep your toddler away from it, not crying because the noise is pretty annoying for everyone, and they (especially my 3-year-old with autism which we didn't know at the time) are extremely persistent with wanting to have the pretty, shiny things on the table.

It's frustrating, difficult, and after a while of this, and knowing that others present (I'm looking at my FIL here) are judging you for your perceived bad parenting and inability to corral your toddler like they were perfectly able to do when their kids were toddlers gets your insides pretty churny. It's not a pleasant way to spend Christmas, and on the whole it would have been easier to stay home, but then there's the expectation that you not only attend Christmas dinner in a situation that's difficult to deal with, but that you make the toddler behave perfectly throughout.

Well, that's hard and upsetting and painful at times.

Now, I realise that no-one else has to deal with your toddler climbing on the table, and of course you do what you need to so that they're not inconvenienced as much as possible. But it's a crappy Christmas for the parents and I sympathise with them. I get that in the OP's story, the parents didn't attempt to get their kid to behave, and that's not the right way to go, I agree.

(I may be projecting my own experience onto a totally different situation.  )

[Iris]

^I think maybe you are:). Believe me, I KNOW that feeling, when your special needs child is behaving'normally', according to their own normal, and you are getting judgements from all around even though you are doing yoor best. It is painful, and it does make you want to stay home. That doesn't seem to be the case here though. Actually un-setting the table sends a very clear message that they are putting their child's wants ahead of other's to me. l suspect in your case if it had come to that, it would have been after a long period of obvious effort.

It is good to have a reminder though, that we should be wary of 'MY child would never have done that' arguments. After all, my amazingly obedient toddler is the SAME child as the special needs teenager that caused all my painful experiences.

[Piratelvr1121]

I think any child is likely to do something like that at one point or another. They all test their limits, I think the difference is some parents are more willing to set limits in the first place.

I feel sorry for the little guy in question as it's clear he's being used as a pawn in his mother's power game with the OP and OP's mother, and I'd imagine with other people too.  She wants to pick a fight and he's the perfect prop, isn't he? She's probably not going to set limits because it's too convenient for her to have a kid that is unruly, and clearly cares more about her vendetta than her son's safety.

Which is of course, very sad for the little boy, and either OP or her mother are going to have to step in and remove him from the table every time he gets up there, and if his mother balks, lightly say "I don't feel like spending the holiday in the ER, so I'd rather keep him from hurting himself as much as possible."

[katycoo]

When one of us kids, then grandkids, would lean too far over the table my mother would say,

"Get off the table, Mable.  The quarter's for a beer."

I miss my mom!

Interesting choice of phrase.  I wonder if she realised the implications of it?

[CakeEater]

I think any child is likely to do something like that at one point or another. They all test their limits, I think the difference is some parents are more willing to set limits in the first place.

Toddlers all test their limits, yes. Some are much louder and more persistent than others about it. Some parents are more persistent about it as well. There's more than just one factor (parental limits) at play in these sorts of situations.

[mmswm]

I think any child is likely to do something like that at one point or another. They all test their limits, I think the difference is some parents are more willing to set limits in the first place.

Toddlers all test their limits, yes. Some are much louder and more persistent than others about it. Some parents are more persistent about it as well. There's more than just one factor (parental limits) at play in these sorts of situations.

I used to tell my kids when we got into these limit-testing battles that I was older and had FAR more experience at being stubborn.

[Piratelvr1121]

Haha!  I sometimes say to mine "Just where do you think you got your stubbornness from?" Actually they got a double dose from myself and DH, even if he'll never admit it.

[TootsNYC]

Obviously, letting a toddler climb on the table while you're trying to set it or eat off it isn't OK, but I do have some sympathy for Brother and SIL. It's just not as easy as 'saying no' and the kid stops whatever thing you're wanting them to stop. It's pretty painful, sometimes, and I don't think they're horrible people for not wanting to deal with that on Christmas Day. Of course they're his parents and that's their responsibility, blah, blah, but I do understand.

It is in fact that easy, and not at all painful. Unless the parents make it that way.

I agree.  My daughter was as active as they come, and we had no problem keeping her from doing the things she wasn't supposed to do.

I'm not sure you understood me. I meant that you don't just say 'no' to a toddler and they comply without protesting, and wander off happily to sit quietly with their quiet toys. There's the screaming, and the kicking, and the associated wailing and gnashing of teeth. If your kids are/were of the first variety, then you're super lucky.

I am able to keep my toddler from climbing on the table at someone's house, but sometimes it's because I pick him up off the table and walk out of the room/house while the wailing/kicking etc is going on. And that's pretty painful.

Of course, that's what you do, because letting the child climb all over the table while it's being set and people are eating off it aren't OK.

Obviously, letting a toddler climb on the table while you're trying to set it or eat off it isn't OK, but I do have some sympathy for Brother and SIL. It's just not as easy as 'saying no' and the kid stops whatever thing you're wanting them to stop. It's pretty painful, sometimes, and I don't think they're horrible people for not wanting to deal with that on Christmas Day. Of course they're his parents and that's their responsibility, blah, blah, but I do understand.

It is in fact that easy, and not at all painful. Unless the parents make it that way.

I agree. It takes patience and consistency but it's doable -- one of the primary jobs of a parent. If there's screaming and wailing, dealing with that is the parent's job as well. Giving in to screaming, wailing and "I don' wanna" just teaches the child that they don't have to follow directions. (This is absent any neurological issues, for those of you who want to chime in with the "but whaddabout Asperger's, etc.?" Except in the most extreme situations, those take more time and more patience, but still aren't impossible.)

It's not a matter of just saying "no," either.  They have to be taught what "no" means, because it's not automatic. For a child this age, you physically remove them, each and every time, firmly saying "no." You keep an eagle-eye out and physically stop them as soon as they start. Again with the "no."

And, frankly, I don't give a rodent's posterior what the parents want or don't want to deal with on Christmas Day. It's a 24 hour-a-day 365-day-a-year job. I say that as a parent. You don't get a day off unless you arrange it before hand, in which case the current care-giver is responsible for doing what the parent must do, and that includes teaching what "no" means. If they parents don't want to parent, then they have the choice of staying home. A 2yo takes a lot of parenting.

I do have a child with autism, so I can probably attest to what is or isn't possible, and what takes more work. And as someone who has listened to their fair share of screaming and wailing, and who has physically removed kid/left events early/not attended events/attended events that weren't kid friendly but attended due to family expectations/done a lot of work so that our issues don't impact on those around us, I can tell you that it is pretty painful.

I've also done it, because that's what you do - even on Christmas Day.

My point was not that these parents shouldn't do this - of course they should - just that I sympathise with them. It's a painful job.

And some people don't have the imagination to do things like take the kid in the other room and get involved in playing with them.

I remember saying to my DH, "would you watch DD while I cook dinner?" And his idea of watching her was to literally do that--watch her. Watch her walk back in to try to talk to me, etc., in the kitchen.

I had to say to him, literally, "Take her in the other room and get her to play with one of her toys, and keep her in the other room by distracting her with something. Read to her. Get down on the floor and roll the truck back and forth. Something!"

Not all parents have the skills. And it *is* hard--it takes energy, imagination, effort, etc. And when they're pre-verbal like this, it isn't that much fun. It's sort of a tough age to interact with.

Oh, sure, it's necessary, and it gets easier as you get more practiced.

But that's why I'd be saying, literally, "SIL, maybe you could take Nephew into the living room and read him a book? That will keep him busy until we're ready to eat."

[Piratelvr1121]

My DH is like that too.  He's gotten better with the youngest in that he'll at least hand the little guy a toy or put his big stuffed dog (which is about the same size as Piratebabe is) on the floor for him to play with and talks to him about how he's playing with it as he watches.