Is 7am-8pm too long of a favor to move? UPDATE #49

[yokozbornak]

I'm betting that the dad pays nothing and considers this day as the "full day's work" he mentioned last time. Tell your son that he is free to never work/volunteer for these people again.

The bolded is my prediction as well.  I think, etiquette-wise, you are fine to speak the dad and mention the previous contract and tell him that you expect him to pay the $10 an hour as agreed and let him know that you do not not appreciate him keeping your son well past the time that was agreed.  I also think you need to talk to your children about setting good boundaries and how it is perfectly okay to say "no" when someone wants to take advantage of you.

RegionMom, you and your family seem like nice and giving people.  You have posted several threads where people are taking advantage of your giving nature, and I am afraid that your son is learning from that example.  It's hard to see someone taking advantage of your children so I hope that it helps you see that you shouldn't let people take advantage of you either.  Being a person of your word doesn't mean that people get to walk all over you.

[Iris]

OP here-

yeah, that is about what I figured. 

DD knew to "be otherwise engaged" but DS is pulling the "I am a man of my word and I will not lie that I have other plans when I do not."  Never mind that he had planned to teach karate tonight. 

He has not been texting since before nightfall, so I assume they are eating dinner or his phone is off.  I do not know if they are still in 60-90 minute away city, or on the road.  DS will NOT be helping unload. 

And, I guess losing this friendship would not be too bad.  I do like the family, but the kids are not really even friends anymore. 

Oh, as to the homeshool details, it seemed the best way to explain this crazy family.  I could have detailed an attempted camping trip, a failed b-day party, or a bizarre non-yard sale, but the overall pattern was best summed in their way of (not) home schooling their children. 

So, I guess I will have DH pick up DS and have a chat with the dad, no matter what, since "time is money" and DS's day is completely shot. 

DS was asked to be there by 7am.  He was.  They were not even awake, and did not leave till well after 9am.  Good thing DS brought a book to read while he waited on them!

This may be a good opportunity to discuss with DS that "No" is a complete sentence and priorities are important, especially in business transactions. He doesn't have to lie or say that he's otherwise engaged he just has to say "No". Being a man of your word is an admirable trait but working for others for free after they've already ripped you off once is not part of being a man of your word. Giving in to these ... people ... has meant that he has had to let down others (the karate people).

I think it's excellent for kids to learn a work ethic and I wish my DD had the drive of your son, but kids also need to learn that they deserve a fair day's pay for a fair day's work and a deal is a deal.

[penelope2017]

I can't for the life of me figure out why you let your son do this a second time, and why you didn't  point out the originally agreed terms when the dad made the reference to being owed a full days work.

Can you explain that line of thinking? $10 an hour is what he said, right? Why not point that out? And if neither you or your son were willing to stand up for yourselves, why do it twice?

Also is your etiquette question whether or not you can ask the dad to stick to his agreed wage and that your son is fairly paid? If youre not sure if thats ok to do, I'd think twice about agreeing to these things in the future. Your kids are being taken advantage of.

[Winterlight]

My parents would not have allowed me to go back the second day after getting ripped off the first time.

[Audrey Quest]

I don't think you should mention it.  As you say, you knew what you were getting into.

$10/hour for a teenager is pretty much a jackpot.  My son made that for over 7 years working full time at a restaurant and had to pay taxes on it as well.

So, getting $50 out of the deal is not so bad, but combined with what you knew about these people it should have been a red flag.

Obviously, they offered that much per hour because their reputation precedes them and presumably no one would have come at all otherwise.  But, there is really no standing to demand that he pay up more just as he had no standing to demand that they come back, but you brought them back!
 
I wouldn't have brought them back!

If the situation at the house was like that of a hoarder's home, I particularly wouldn't have allowed it again after one of my kids got a stuffy nose.  There are all kinds of allergens in an old badly neglected home.
 
At this point, I wouldn't say anything, but I would create distance between your family and theirs.

[crella]

But '$10 an hour' isn't $50 for 7 hours work, though. The kids expected to be paid for each hour they worked. If the father wasn't going to pay it, he shouldn't have kept them more than the 5 hours he kept them.

[stargazer]

I simply do not understand why you did not speak up when you picked up your kids and point out that not only had they already put in a full days work, but needed to be paid $70 each, not $50 since he was paying $10/hr.  Why didn't you?

[Audrey Quest]

But '$10 an hour' isn't $50 for 7 hours work, though. The kids expected to be paid for each hour they worked. If the father wasn't going to pay it, he shouldn't have kept them more than the 5 hours he kept them.

The OP didn't have to bring them back.

The point is that someone who has that kind of reputation for being really loose with time, organization, etc--offering $10/hour which is a lot of money particularly when there are no taxes being taken out should be seen as a red flag.

The $10/hour offer should have sounded too good to be true because it was.

[WillyNilly]

By my estimation that guy owed your kids $30 after the first day - overtime is time & a half doncha know! (I get that its not real, full time work... but then again rotten refridgerators are typical move day stuff either!)

Today please make darn sure your kid is paid from 7am when he was there, as told to be there, not 10-something when they finally got to the place. Its good to have a kid with work ethics, but if he undervalues himself and has no spine his work ethic will be abused for sure.

[AustenFan]

Unless the teenagers present were superhuman with incredibly un-teenage like attention spans I doubt they did manual labor for 7 hours straight, so find the argument that he owed them $70 faulty. Between drink/lunch/rest breaks I can easily see hours being shaved off the 7 they were there.

I agree with other posters though, that should have been addressed when payment was made.

It sounds like the dad was viewing this as a job. He's not paying commute time and may have been actively monitoring the time spent working, hence the complaint about not having received as much work as he paid for.

[Surianne]

Unless the teenagers present were superhuman with incredibly un-teenage like attention spans I doubt they did manual labor for 7 hours straight, so find the argument that he owed them $70 faulty. Between drink/lunch/rest breaks I can easily see hours being shaved off the 7 they were there.

He offered $10/hour, and took up 7 hours of their time.  If he intended to pay only $x/minute of time spent working in a very specific way, he should have said that up front.  I think the OP's son absolutely has the right to demand $70 for the 7 hours he spent helping -- even if rest breaks occurred.

Of course, the fact that he went back without demanding this won't help his cause; I think that's where the major problem lies, and I don't think he'll get the money, unfortunately, so this may have to be chalked up to a lesson learned.  WillyNilly put it very well:

It's good to have a kid with work ethics, but if he undervalues himself and has no spine his work ethic will be abused for sure.

"Work ethic" doesn't mean allowing yourself to be taken advantage of.

[gramma dishes]

The $10/hour offer should have sounded too good to be true because it was.

I'm not so sure that it was.  (Although I can see him not paying travel time.)

The kind of work they were doing had to be done by 'someone'.  Who do you think the guy could have hired to clean out old moldy refrigerators, move heavy furniture and do all the other stuff these kids were doing?  I saw nothing to indicate that any of the kids were horsing around wasting time.  Any adult would have charged AT LEAST that much or more! 

The guy apparently thinks that because he's dealing with kids, it's okay for him to lie to them, change the rules as he goes along, and ultimately cheat them.  No.  It isn't.  He would never get by with that if he had hired adults. 

If he told them $10 an hour, he should pay them $10 an hour.  It is not THEIR fault that he didn't really have the place ready for the move.  They did the work.  They deserve the pay.

If they were not paid at LEAST the $50 promised at the end of that day, there is no way I would have allowed my son to go back, much less taken him back there again.

[snowdragon]

He took 11 hours of their time.  He should have been paying them travel time, as that's time he used that they could have been doing other things. As for lunch. drinks and rest - sorry, I have no sympathy for him there either.
He was paying these kids FAR less than what he would have to pay adults.
http://home.costhelper.com/mold-remediation.html  - mold clean up

http://www.movingstaffers.com/CostEstimate.aspx  - moving.

The very least he could do is pay them for all the hours he had them - 7am to 8pm = 11hrs x $10/hr = $110 per day.

Not $50 for all those hours on the first day with a lecture on "owing" him .

This guy is a creep.

[RegionMom]

OP here-

I found out today that we are a family of nice wimps.   

DS finally texted that they are about an hour away from home, and that he should not call, because the dad would be mad because he wants DS to stay and unload. 

Too bad.  Too late. 

I had DH call the dad, expecting him to be tough--DS had already been gone since 7am, it is almost 9pm, no dinner that we know of, and cold chicken for lunch...

and DH was heard to say,
"Oh, just wondering what time to pick up DS, since we have not really heard.  Oh?  Well, we usually like to have him start getting ready for bed around now, and we have weekend plans that he needs to rest up for, so just call me when you are closer in.  Ok!  have a safe drive!"

And I was literally banging on the befroom door shouting, "FOURTEEN HOURS!!!  NO DINNER!  CHEAP PAY!"

When he hung up, he looked at me and said, "We know not to help them again.  We were helping his elderly mom.  You are agitated and need to calm down."

I tried to say that mentioning a (just turned 17 last week) bedtime is wimpy, full of excuse and apology.  He just shrugged. 

Wimps, I tell ya!  Wimps!!   


Oh, and as for how much my son works--two weeks ago, we went to a venison rendering party.  other families came and went, as it was casual.  My son cut meat for several hours straight.  Another mom I just met commented that she thought he was a 'ringer,' a hired guy, to help out, because he worked without stopping for several hours.  Over 70 lbs ground, plus other cuts.  Yes, we received meat as payment. 

He works up a sweat and has been given serious jobs at his school and karate and boy scouts and band and church because he is very dependable.  He has never been found shirking work, unless it is cleaning his room or doing dishes!  He, and his sister, earned every penny that Saturday. 

I will let e-hell know how much he received later tonight.

[gramma dishes]

I will let e-hell know how much he received later tonight.

Okay.  I'm staying up late for this one!  Anyone want to wager here?  I'm guessing $50 (or less) for both days.