Another vacation etiquette question

[TurtleDove]

I thought my made it clear I was making a joking comment and certainly did not anticipate anyone would be offended!  At any rate, I think if the OP is basing her decision not to share photos on the behavior of someone other than the friend in the OP, it is not conducive to a good friendship to just say, "I'm not sharing with you. Bean dip."  I would imagine the friend would understand with the explanation but without it feels hurt.

Personally, though, I give people - and especially friends - clean slates and don't assume they will mistreat me simply because someone else mistreated me in the past.  I am not saying anyone who thinks differently is wrong. I  was saying that if we never trusted anyone because someone else at some time offended or hurt us...well, we would never trust anyone, and for me I need to trust my friends.

[Victim Of Fate]

I disagree. There are a lot of people who don't loan things (books, dvd's, clothes, etc.)because of the careless behavior of one friend.

I agree, this does happen. But in those circumstances, if another friend says "Hey, can I borrow the DVD of that film we were talking about?", what does one do? Just say "no", or say "no, I have a rule about lending my DVDs because I've lost too many that way"? You don't have to do the latter, but isn't it a better option?

[rashea]

OP, I've finally managed to get through the thread.

To me, photos are a shared experience, but I respect that that isn't true for everyone. In some ways, going back to the recipe thread helped me to remember why I feel that way.

I don't think it would be rude for a friend to ask for your photos. Enough people see photos as something you share (at least from a shared experience) that asking doesn't seem over the top rude to me. Especially because photos can be easy to share and it isn't a case where only one person can have them at once. (Note: this is consistent with my belief that it isn't rude to ask someone for a recipe)

I do think the way he demanded rather than asked was rude. A quick, "hey, when you get home, I'd love to have some of the photos you took" would have gone a lot better. And then the OP could have made the distinction between what was "snapshot" and what was "art" or went home and decided not to share any.

I don't think that he has the right to demand an explanation, but I do think it would be wise to give one. This also fits with how I felt about recipes. "No" may be a complete sentence, but it's cold, and can leave the other person wondering why. This isn't required by etiquette, but it is recommended for the relationship. And I would absolutely understand why someone didn't feel we were as close if I gave them a stark "no" as an answer.

OP, I also think it's worth you mentioning it to someone you travel with. For you, this needs to be part of the pre-trip discussion that includes how much time you spend together and apart, who drives, who pays, etc. Just be upfront about the fact that you'll share select photos, but that they shouldn't count on getting all your shots.

[Amara]

When I go somewhere on vacation (be it a day trip or several weeks) and take my Nikon camera and lenses I do not intend to shoot vacation photos. I intend to shoot art. Granted, I might will take a lot of photos to get the one or two that can be blown up and framed. But when I lug around heavy and expensive camera equipment I intend a specific purpose. To create, for me, fine art. Not reminders of time spent together there, though I will surely shoot some of those too because they are fun and they are good reminders; some of those I will gladly share. But if anyone asked me, let alone demanded, all my photos or even the ones that were the art I was going for (after seeing them on my walls) they would get a firm "no."

[bloo]

I thought my made it clear I was making a joking comment and certainly did not anticipate anyone would be offended!  At any rate, I think if the OP is basing her decision not to share photos on the behavior of someone other than the friend in the OP, it is not conducive to a good friendship to just say, "I'm not sharing with you. Bean dip."  I would imagine the friend would understand with the explanation but without it feels hurt.

Personally, though, I give people - and especially friends - clean slates and don't assume they will mistreat me simply because someone else mistreated me in the past.  I am not saying anyone who thinks differently is wrong. I  was saying that if we never trusted anyone because someone else at some time offended or hurt us...well, we would never trust anyone, and for me I need to trust my friends.

Everyone should be so mature. But all of my friends, like me, have flaws. There are some I love and trust but just not with that *one* thing (insert whatever thing you want here). Some I don't trust their punctuality or what have you - small issues, nothing huge (huge would = no friendship at all).

I believe that expression 'love as if you've never been hurt before' but that does not negate caution. And there is nothing immature in one person deciding that caution means not giving out or loaning stuff. If I have anxiety about getting my stuff back, then I don't loan it out. I think I'm mature for recognizing that about myself. My teenage daughter has loaned out some of my clothes when her girlfriends needed it. I don't like it. I prefer my daughter not raid my closet but since we can share clothes it saves me money so I swallow it. But if her girlfriends borrow my clothes I have to worry about getting them back.

I do not offer my clothes for loan so I don't have to deal with the anxiety. There is one girlfriend I would loan to with the caveat 'don't tell anyone it's mine'.

I don't go around assuming, though, that every woman I could get close to would: steal my husband, steal from my purse, gossip about me, etc. until they've shown by their behaviors that would be the case.

[TurtleDove]

And there is nothing immature in one person deciding that caution means not giving out or loaning stuff.

To clarify, I was not saying people who do not trust are immature.  I was saying that if we never trust people because someone else some other time hurt our feelings or offended us or _____, we will not have any friends because most (all?) people have been hurt by someone or another by the time they are five. 

[drzim]

 I belong to the "snapshot" camp.  When vacationing with friends, I would assume that photos would be shared.  With digital cameras being the norm these days, it is so easy to take multiple shots (no need to worry about wasting film, or developing time).  The OP admits that she is NOT a professional photographer and unless the OP was carting along special lights/reflectors and/or spending a long time setting up shots, how was the friend to know that she regarded her photos as "art" versus "snapshots"?  I don't think the friend was rude for assuming that the vacation photos would be shared.

My best friend is a professional photographer, and she uses her good camera a lot even when she's shooting for fun. So just the fact that a professional style camera with equipment was being used does not mean that the photos would be off limits for general sharing. I've watched my friend work and there is a big difference in how she shoots fun vs. job.   Job means a significant amount of work for set up and lighting, or several series of test shots to determine the best angles, natural lighting, etc.  Fun means point and shoot, and picking out the best photos afterwards.  It seems like the OP was shooting for fun, and was pleasantly surprised at the quality of some of her shots.

That being said, the OP does have the right to keep her photos to herself.  But if she values the friendship, an explanation is needed. 

I would not be upset if a friend refused to share all her vacation photos with me, but explained it was because she wanted to use the photos semi-professionally and would be willing to make me a photo book. 

I would not be upset if the friend gave me photos, but made it a condition that I could not post them on any online site.

I would not be upset if the friend told me that she wanted a chance to look through all the photos first, edit them, etc.  Then she would be able to give them to me or upload them to a photosharing site where I could download them.

I would be upset if I asked for vacation photos, and all I got was the ones of myself.  Then, if I asked for the rest, I got nothing but bean-dip.

[MariaE]

That being said, the OP does have the right to keep her photos to herself.  But if she values the friendship, an explanation is needed. 

Quoted for truth. Etiquette may say that "No is a complete sentence", but in a friendship it just isn't so.

I would not be upset if a friend refused to share all her vacation photos with me, but explained it was because she wanted to use the photos semi-professionally and would be willing to make me a photo book. 

I would not be upset if the friend gave me photos, but made it a condition that I could not post them on any online site.

I would not be upset if the friend told me that she wanted a chance to look through all the photos first, edit them, etc.  Then she would be able to give them to me or upload them to a photosharing site where I could download them.

I would be upset if I asked for vacation photos, and all I got was the ones of myself.  Then, if I asked for the rest, I got nothing but bean-dip.

POD!

[PastryGoddess]

However her friend didn't ask, he demanded ...and that changes the whole nature of the interaction. 

Secondly he whined multiple times about not getting exactly what he wanted, and frankly if an adult is going to whine like a child I'm going to assume they are not ready to have an adult conversation.

[Victim Of Fate]

However her friend didn't ask, he demanded ...and that changes the whole nature of the interaction. 

Secondly he whined multiple times about not getting exactly what he wanted, and frankly if an adult is going to whine like a child I'm going to assume they are not ready to have an adult conversation.

But, as I stated in an earlier post, a "demand" can appear that way because the demander doesn't realise it's not part of the demandee's standard behaviour.

For instance, the friend in the OP said "go ahead and upload all your pictures to my ipad". That doesn't strike me as a particularly rude turn of phrase if your assumption (based on your experience) was that friends naturally share all the photos they take on a joint vacation.

If, on the other hand, your experience is that photos are a personal thing that are taken for your eyes only, I can see how that phrase would come across as a demand.

And "whining" multiple times seems to me a direct result of a close friend offering bean dip in lieu of an actual explanation - neither is particularly mature behaviour.

[bloo]

However her friend didn't ask, he demanded ...and that changes the whole nature of the interaction. 

Secondly he whined multiple times about not getting exactly what he wanted, and frankly if an adult is going to whine like a child I'm going to assume they are not ready to have an adult conversation.

But, as I stated in an earlier post, a "demand" can appear that way because the demander doesn't realise it's not part of the demandee's standard behaviour.

For instance, the friend in the OP said "go ahead and upload all your pictures to my ipad". That doesn't strike me as a particularly rude turn of phrase if your assumption (based on your experience) was that friends naturally share all the photos they take on a joint vacation.

If, on the other hand, your experience is that photos are a personal thing that are taken for your eyes only, I can see how that phrase would come across as a demand.

And "whining" multiple times seems to me a direct result of a close friend offering bean dip in lieu of an actual explanation - neither is particularly mature behaviour.

You had me until the bolded.

Whining is immature.

Bean-dipping is not.

The OP was not immature for bean-dipping. Her friend was either particularly dense or entitled to ignore her unstated but obvious lack of desire to turn over all her pictures right then.

The OP was particularly generous, IMO, ln going through her pix right then to give some to the friend.

The OP can now leave things as they are or she can go back to Whiner and say, "Remember, Whiner, at the end of the vacay when we discussed my pictures and your desire for them? About that, see this is how I feel about my photos..."

Only the OP can really know which option is better for current/future dealings with Whiner.

[MariaE]

However her friend didn't ask, he demanded ...and that changes the whole nature of the interaction. 

Secondly he whined multiple times about not getting exactly what he wanted, and frankly if an adult is going to whine like a child I'm going to assume they are not ready to have an adult conversation.

But, as I stated in an earlier post, a "demand" can appear that way because the demander doesn't realise it's not part of the demandee's standard behaviour.

For instance, the friend in the OP said "go ahead and upload all your pictures to my ipad". That doesn't strike me as a particularly rude turn of phrase if your assumption (based on your experience) was that friends naturally share all the photos they take on a joint vacation.

If, on the other hand, your experience is that photos are a personal thing that are taken for your eyes only, I can see how that phrase would come across as a demand.

And "whining" multiple times seems to me a direct result of a close friend offering bean dip in lieu of an actual explanation - neither is particularly mature behaviour.

You had me until the bolded.

Whining is immature.

Bean-dipping is not.

The OP was not immature for bean-dipping. Her friend was either particularly dense or entitled to ignore her unstated but obvious lack of desire to turn over all her pictures right then.

She wasn't mature either. I agree, whining is always immature, but bean-dipping is not always mature. Sometimes it just is.

And in this particular case, I actually think it was rude. Rudeness as a response to direct immaturity perhaps, but rudeness nonetheless.

(Mind you, I am not saying the OP was rude for refusing to share all her photos. Just rude in how she went about it.)

[Victim Of Fate]

You had me until the bolded.

Whining is immature.

Bean-dipping is not.

The OP was not immature for bean-dipping. Her friend was either particularly dense or entitled to ignore her unstated but obvious lack of desire to turn over all her pictures right then.

The OP was particularly generous, IMO, ln going through her pix right then to give some to the friend.

The OP can now leave things as they are or she can go back to Whiner and say, "Remember, Whiner, at the end of the vacay when we discussed my pictures and your desire for them? About that, see this is how I feel about my photos..."

Only the OP can really know which option is better for current/future dealings with Whiner.

Thing is, "whining" is a subjective description - people very rarely believe themselves to be whining, it's more often perceived by others. And what one person may consider to be whining, others may consider to be "trying again".

Bean-dipping can be an appropriate, mature response to certain people in certain situations. But in other situations, it can lead to confusion as well as the breaking down of a relationship. If, as a response to a request for photos, someone gets told "No" followed by bean-dipping, I can see why they might think "maybe I caught her in a bad mood", "maybe she didn't understand what I meant", "maybe she'll have changed her mind", any one of which would be cause for the friend to re-ask the question, which the OP might then consider "whining".

[Venus193]

I may or may not have said this upthread or elsewhere, but now that I've had my morning caffeine I think I can state it better:

The ease of photography both in execution and delivery is -- in some people's minds -- making it so easy they no longer consider it to be Art.  They don't get that the photographer with a sense of art can take great photos with even a simple camera because great photos require a combination of:

• the right subject
• the right lighting
• the right composition
• the right pose and expression (for a living subject)

Not everyone can do this even with expensive equipment.  The above elements are lost on many if not most people and/or they don't have even the minimal patience needed to take great photos.  That is why people who work at taking great pictures need to protect their work product even if they're not paid to do it.

A person who has been burned once can be very gun-shy about sharing photos or anything else.  If the person making the request demand has a history of doing this to others or if the photographer has been previously burned, their position on this must be respected.

[TurtleDove]

The issue I have is that I don't see where the OP explained her position to the friend.  Had she done that, my view would change.  As it is, I think the OP was at fault for the miscommunication and bordeline rude to her friend (and not because she wouldn't share the photos, but because she wouldn't explain why not when it likely would have prevented any hurt feelings from the outset).  I still don't understand why the OP went about it this way.