Author Topic: Another vacation etiquette question  (Read 17787 times)

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pickles50

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Re: Another vacation etiquette question
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2012, 08:08:01 PM »
OP here...

No, he did not offer to trade pictures.

I would have even been open to the idea if he asked in advance he could have copies of my photos or at least offer to lug around the cumbersome camera equipment.

My motivation: in the past I have freely given out pictures only to find them later posted on another person's facebook or other social networking passed off as their photos they took.

Firecat

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Re: Another vacation etiquette question
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2012, 08:10:26 PM »
I have a difficult time understanding your motivation.

I don't. The OP spent considerable time, effort, and cash to get good shots. The friend could have done the same, or discussed sharing the OP's pics up front. Instead, the friend just assumed that it was ok to "piggyback" on the OP's work, which shows any or all of the following: a certain laziness on the friend's part, a lack of respect for the OP's work, and perhaps a lack of appreciation for the time and skill involved in good photography. I'd be a lot less hard on the friend if the friend had asked the OP up front if it was ok to share pictures, and offered some type of compensation or incentive to the OP. Or just asked for copies of the pictures that included him or maybe one or two particular locations or events. So I don't thinke the OP was at all wrong for being upset.

For me, the whole point of taking pictures is to share the memories with people  so the more people want to see my photos the better. Most people I know operate that way (though, as I mentioned some people do add watermarks to their photos so it is clear whose they are). I see no reason to ascribe unpleasant motives to someone for wanting copies of photos.

See the photos is one thing...take copies of the photos, which the friend just assumed would be ok, is something else. I think it's entirely possible that it's simply a case of clashing expectations (the friend assumed it was no big deal, the OP feels differently, and they're both entitled to how they feel). But I still think that if the friend wanted to share pictures, it would be more polite to have that discussion up front, because people do have different feelings and expectations around this issue.

I lean toward the OP's perspective, maybe partly because my DH used to be fairly serious about photography, and it really bugs me when people are like "they're just pictures, what's the big deal" which is pretty much what the friend did. Regardless of the friend's precise motivation, the friend's actions were pretty darn lazy in watching the OP lug all the equipment around, line up good angles, probably take several shots with different settings to ensure good lighting and so on - and just expect to take advantage of the OP's time, effort, and money - because I can tell you that good equipment, most especially good digital equipment, is not a trivial expense. It was, as another poster so succintly said, presumptuous of the friend, and, I maintain, a bit disrespectful.

Cami

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Re: Another vacation etiquette question
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2012, 08:23:45 PM »
Let's say the friend speaks French because he spent the time, considerable effort and money to learn French. You did not.  Your choice. You could have learned French at some point in your life, but you chose not to do so. You were expecting that when you two went to Paris, that he would translate for you. But then the two of you get to Paris and he refuses to translate for you.

How would you feel about your friend and the friendship?

Deetee

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Re: Another vacation etiquette question
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2012, 08:25:34 PM »
I should clarify that the OP has the perfect right to say no. If I asked and was turned down, I wouldn't get snippy or anything. It just wouldn't occur to me that someone would spend all that effort to take photos and then not want to share them.

OP, you mentioned your pictures had been passed off as other peoples. A watermark (cool signature you put on your photos) would take care of that. I actually like it when my friends watermark things so I can post them and show off their skill without having to mention it in every comment.

Firecat

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Re: Another vacation etiquette question
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2012, 08:32:16 PM »
Let's say the friend speaks French because he spent the time, considerable effort and money to learn French. You did not.  Your choice. You could have learned French at some point in your life, but you chose not to do so. You were expecting that when you two went to Paris, that he would translate for you. But then the two of you get to Paris and he refuses to translate for you.

How would you feel about your friend and the friendship?

I don't think that refusing to translate for someone in a foreign country when you speak the language and they do not is remotely the same as declining to share pictures. Being able to communicate is, in some situations, absolutely essential; pictures are absolutely not essential. I do think that the person who doesn't know French should be respectful of the person who does, and try to give them a break sometimes; just as I think that the friend in the OP should have been respectful of the OP's time and effort.

buvezdevin

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Re: Another vacation etiquette question
« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2012, 08:34:51 PM »
I would be bothered, generally, by an "expectation" being stated, rather than a request to share.

Aside from that, it isn't only that OP has the expense of good equipment, and the logistics and effort of traveling with it and putting effort into her photos - they are personal mementos of significance to OP.  OP shared photos which featured her friend, and beyond that - I would imagine many/most of the views OP photographed are pretty readily available on line if her friend wants just the image.  If what the friend wants is a photo diary of the trip, or just copies of some awesome shots OP took - because he would enjoy them - then asking politely would have been much better than approaching it as an entitlement on his part.

To Surianne's point about writing as a comparable example, I once had a friend ask me to write up a story and recommendation about her husband's cooking which she wanted to submit to a newspaper for a profile.  I did, and I was chagrined to see the eventual article in which she took what I had written and submitted it as her own.  It was not a big effort for me, and it cost me nothing to have her present my writing as her own - other than some respect for her and a vow to myself to not respond to any remotely similar requests from her.

When anyone makes an investment or effort to create something, it is worth recognizing that the result is likely valued by that person, even if not monetarily.  Asking someone to share something they value is then best done in a way which at least suggests the requester also values what is being requested, *and* the creative effort of the originator.

"Download all your photos" does not show value held, or appreciation.

It's fine if there is an agreement in advance, and I usually have no issue with sharing my own photos, but I think I would have reacted, responded and felt much as did OP in this situation.
Never refuse to do a kindness unless the act would work great injury to yourself, and never refuse to take a drink -- under any circumstances.
Mark Twain

Alpacas

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Re: Another vacation etiquette question
« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2012, 08:38:44 PM »
As an artist and a design student i understand the OPs motivation not to share.
Of course you want others to see your pictures, but you also want to keep controll over who sees them when. Sharing them with someone always brings the risk of loosing that control.

Firecat also explained very well how people tend to disregard the work that goes into photographs (or in my case drawings)
There have been numerous times when i heard how "simple" and "easy" my work must be because i just need to "take a picture" or draw some lines on paper.
Only this christmas i told my mother that the painting she was looking at was done with Photoshop, only to hear a disregarding "Oh..well if its like that... Thats not real art then."

I think because of that view towards pictures, and photographs people tend to simply disregard how important they might be for the artist.

Only yesterday a friend showed me a picture that might have a different background but also shows the artists POV ( i hope i'm allowed to share this link here)
http://media.tumblr.com/a5cb2c1aed7ca9fa5b06189e99f2835c/tumblr_inline_mfr5u6Ugoa1r1pwb5.png

To get to the etiquett question here.
I think the friend was rude to "demand" the photographs  instead of asking for them. And he was rude to repeat the question when he didn't get the answer he wanted.
The OP was not rude to decline sharing her work.

gramma dishes

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Re: Another vacation etiquette question
« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2012, 08:43:16 PM »
I get why the OP feels the way she does.

Very decent respectable cameras are readily available at relatively small cost.  I have one that's a little too big to fit in a shirt pocket, but will easily fit into any jacket pocket, purse or small waistpack, etc.  It has a wide angle to 300mm telephoto lens.  It takes pictures that are very close in quality to those I take with my DSLR and various lenses (which I'm assuming the OP used here). 

I think it odd that he didn't take his own pictures.  We all "see" things a little differently and it shows in our photographic technique. 

I would not be willing to share ALL of my pictures with him either.  Some, sure.  But not all.  It's like the Little Red Hen story.  She did all the work.  Why should he get all the benefits?  And only she knows him well enough to know whether he'd show her pictures to others and imply that they were his images. 

Not only that, but she probably wanted the opportunity to edit some of them.  Some get deleted altogether, some get cropped or have some other minor changes.  No, I definitely wouldn't give him direct copies of all my originals.

What maybe I would do is make him a CD of a few selected (by me) pictures to compliment his own.  But unless this was something they had agreed on ahead of time, no, I wouldn't be willing to share to the extent he is demanding.

EMuir

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Re: Another vacation etiquette question
« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2012, 09:05:18 PM »
I'd tell him that I'd be setting up an online album I'd share with him, and then I'd post selected photos to that album, with watermarks if I'm concerned about his sharing them as his own.  However, that would just be if I was expecting to sell the images.  If they were just personal photos and he wanted them and might say he took them? Who cares? My friends will know he's lying if I tell them, and otherwise someone thinking he takes great pics doesn't reflect badly on me.

bloo

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Re: Another vacation etiquette question
« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2012, 09:13:21 PM »
I would be bothered, generally, by an "expectation" being stated, rather than a request to share.

Aside from that, it isn't only that OP has the expense of good equipment, and the logistics and effort of traveling with it and putting effort into her photos - they are personal mementos of significance to OP.  OP shared photos which featured her friend, and beyond that - I would imagine many/most of the views OP photographed are pretty readily available on line if her friend wants just the image.  If what the friend wants is a photo diary of the trip, or just copies of some awesome shots OP took - because he would enjoy them - then asking politely would have been much better than approaching it as an entitlement on his part.

To Surianne's point about writing as a comparable example, I once had a friend ask me to write up a story and recommendation about her husband's cooking which she wanted to submit to a newspaper for a profile.  I did, and I was chagrined to see the eventual article in which she took what I had written and submitted it as her own.  It was not a big effort for me, and it cost me nothing to have her present my writing as her own - other than some respect for her and a vow to myself to not respond to any remotely similar requests from her.

When anyone makes an investment or effort to create something, it is worth recognizing that the result is likely valued by that person, even if not monetarily.  Asking someone to share something they value is then best done in a way which at least suggests the requester also values what is being requested, *and* the creative effort of the originator.
"Download all your photos" does not show value held, or appreciation.

It's fine if there is an agreement in advance, and I usually have no issue with sharing my own photos, but I think I would have reacted, responded and felt much as did OP in this situation.

This. Exactly this.

Photography is an art. Some people invest time, money, talent and their heart and emotions to produce beautiful photographs. No different than any other art form.

Some people like to have decent equipment and don't mind sharing it. Good for them.

Some people use their old, 2.0 MP phones and take the crappiest pictures imaginable. Nobody WANTS their pictures! :)

If I was a professional photographer or even an amateur, I would feel uncomfortable with someone demanding something I created. What I capture with a camera is personal to me. If I choose to share it I still would want to maintain control over it.

Speaking another language to help a friend is not analogous, IMO.

I've noticed when it comes to cooking there is a broad range of talents and abilities. I've got one girlfriend that is an excellent cook but hates to give out her recipes. On the rare occasions she has, it's been with the caveat "Don't bring this to any of the potlucks I'll be at. This is one of my signature dishes."

Other excellent cooks are generous with their recipes and don't care who brings what-to-where.

I'm surprised that anyone would have a hard time understanding why one would have proprietary feelings towards something they created. Some of us have these proprietary feelings and others don't. Neither are wrong, but both sides need to show respect toward the other's viewpoint. Of course the artist is the one that gets to decide who does or doesn't get whatever it is the others want from them.

I think that OP was very generous to give the friend the pictures including the friend.


SingMeAway

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Re: Another vacation etiquette question
« Reply #25 on: December 30, 2012, 09:16:14 PM »
Taking good photographs is an art. No different than painting a picture or making a drawing. I also, as a photographer and designer, would not just hand over all my photos. It would be wonderful if you did have a photo book made up for him - he would have some mementos and you can watermark the photos. If he wanted photos so badly, he could have brought more than an iPhone (though those do take good quality photos).

CakeEater

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Re: Another vacation etiquette question
« Reply #26 on: December 30, 2012, 09:18:08 PM »
I take very bad photos with my cheap point and shoot camera. I recognise that there is a massive difference between the quality of my photos and photos taken by even an amateur photographer. At times, I'm willing to pay for good photos taken by professionals with expensive equipment and knowledge of how to compose, edit etc. At other times, I put up with my own, bad shots. I don't expect both - to get the photos, but not to either pay the money or gain the skills myself.

I make decorated cakes. I've spent a lot of time, money and effort learning how to do it, and bought lots of equipment. No-one (expect my Mum and my husband  ;) ) gets to demand that I use that knowledge, skills and equipment for their benefit, regardless of whether it will cost me in terms of money.

JenJay

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Re: Another vacation etiquette question
« Reply #27 on: December 30, 2012, 09:24:15 PM »
As an aside -
This reminds me of the thread regarding asking for recipes and people who prefer not to share them. I never really "got" that side of the debate because I've never invented a recipe from scratch so I couldn't relate to it from that POV. I have, however, caught some nice photos and while I'd be happy to give someone a print or upload it somewhere and send them a link, I can't imagine giving someone the raw photo to do with as they please and being okay with them possibly sharing it and not crediting me. I don't think it's wrong, it just feels weird to me. It's mine. I made it. Now I can completely relate to those of you who don't share recipes.  :D

Amara

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Re: Another vacation etiquette question
« Reply #28 on: December 30, 2012, 09:42:32 PM »
I am a serious amateur photographer, and I would have said no the first time in such a way that he would have known that whining or carrying on would not only not change my mind but damage our relationship. What the OP took was not just vacation photos, but fine art. Art she created and cares about. Art she doesn't want to share or sell. Art that belongs to her alone. Her work, her investment, her product.

ETA: Knitters know how much time, effort, knowledge, and money go into a beautiful wool sweater. Bakers know the same about their cakes. Painters and sculptors know the same about their crafts. So do photographers. Anyone can take photos with a phone or point-and-shoot camera. But the OP bought special equipment for the sole purpose of taking high-quality photographs for herself. No one has the right to expect her to share them.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2012, 09:49:49 PM by Amara »

GrammarNerd

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Re: Another vacation etiquette question
« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2012, 09:48:36 PM »
I think you were generous to give him the pictures that had him in them.  Good for you for bean-dipping about the other ones.  Just keep saying that you need to edit them or whatever.

My mother passed away and as part of her estate settlement, I took some of the money and bought some GOOD equipment.  Specifically, a camera body that was near pro-quality and two lenses that are considered to be top of the line.  I still have a lot to learn.  But I occasionally get the good picture, and I'm happy about that.  But that doesn't mean that I'm going to share them with all and sundry.

I take pictures for my kids' sports team (for a compilation in an end-of-the-year slideshow) and sometimes I'm proud of the shots that I get, but I've had to learn not to show them to parents (even if I am proud of them), because then I get the offhand 'oh, can you send me that?' request.  Really, it's just not that easy.  Files are big, I might have several good shots, and if I downloaded every picture, do you know how long that would take to send that to everyone who wants one?  My camera takes 6-7 frames per second.  I have an insane amount of pictures. And one picture per email message?  Yeah, definitely NOT spending that amount of time.

I think you're fine.  If nothing else, turn it around on your friend.  "If the pictures were so important to you, why didn't you bring a camera?"  The inevitable response will be that he thought you'd share.  "Well, I'm not ready to share all of my pictures.  But I did download the ones that had you in them."  Then just repeat that you're not ready to share all of the pictures.  If he still presses, then just go a little further in (whining) saying how you invested ALL of this money in camera equipment, and you have certain standards because of that. And you couldn't even indulge in souvenirs because of the expense of purchasing all of that professional quality equipment, and you're just not sharing massive quantities of pictures with ANYONE until you're completely satisfied that they live up to the standard that you've set for yourself.

If nothing else, just say, "Seriously?  I've already spent (x amount of time) going through everything to cull out the pictures with you in them.  Do you have any idea how long it would take me to go through everything else, not to mention downloading them?  No way.  Dude, next time get a camera of your own."  Treat it more like he's being unreasonable/like it's a joke, and he might be less likely to press further.

You're not being unreasonable at all.  You invested the money in the equipment, you spent the time lugging the equipment around, setting up the shots, adjusting the camera settings, etc.  They are YOUR souvenirs.  You hold the memories and the 'proof' of doing all of the work to get that perfect shot.  That's worth something to you.  If you want to be snarky, you can ask him if he's going to let you wear his souvenir sweatshirts if you share your pictures with him.