Author Topic: Another vacation etiquette question  (Read 17317 times)

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magician5

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Re: Another vacation etiquette question
« Reply #30 on: December 30, 2012, 09:54:38 PM »
You went to all that trouble, just as you describe, true.

But you did it for you, because you wanted to, without any thought about your companion entering in to the decision. You would, I assume, have done exactly the same thing if you had been alone.

What does it cost you to be generous? It doesn't suddenly change all that you decided at the outset. What would it cost you to give him the photos? You will have no less at the end whether you share or not.

Since you asked, I'd say to tell him "sure", unless there's some reason it's too much trouble. Maybe tell him that he can buy you a nice bottle of wine.

And don't travel with him again.
There is no 'way to peace.' Peace is the way.

Miss March

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Re: Another vacation etiquette question
« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2012, 09:55:41 PM »
My sister takes lovely photographs with her very nice camera. Now at most of our family events, no one else bothers to take pictures at all- they just all make a quick request she "email them copies." It's awful the way people get so comfortable with the idea of someone else doing all the work and having all the care and mindfulness to capture wonderful pictures, and how blithely they request the pictures for themselves. I completely get where the OP was coming from on this.
How lucky I am to have something that makes saying good bye so hard.-- Winnie the Poo

blarg314

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Re: Another vacation etiquette question
« Reply #32 on: December 30, 2012, 09:57:50 PM »
Send him all 650 photos. In RAW format. Including all of of the bad angles, blurred shots, over and under-exposed shots, and the 30 shots of the same scene with slightly different camera settings. Without any post processing.   >:D

I also lug expensive and heavy camera stuff around on vacation. I have no problem sharing photos with fellow travellers - I like to get some shots with me in them, and my camera is not suited to having strangers take group shots. I would be peeved if someone demanded *all* my photos. And I wouldn't necessarily share those few great shots - the ones that I want to frame and display, or use for Christmas gifts.  For most photos, I distributed ones that have been processed, converted to jpg, and scaled to a manageable size .

I figure some of it's a tradeoff to some extent. My companions have been patient while I take those nice shots (which are more time consuming than the iphone shots), so I share some of my photos with them.


CakeEater

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Re: Another vacation etiquette question
« Reply #33 on: December 30, 2012, 10:19:43 PM »
You went to all that trouble, just as you describe, true.

But you did it for you, because you wanted to, without any thought about your companion entering in to the decision. You would, I assume, have done exactly the same thing if you had been alone.

What does it cost you to be generous? It doesn't suddenly change all that you decided at the outset. What would it cost you to give him the photos? You will have no less at the end whether you share or not.

This isn't the exact same situation, I realise, but here's an analogy. I write a two page paper on Columbus for history class. My friend at another school also has to write a two page paper for their history class. Mine is submitted, graded, done. My friend asks me to give them a copy to hand in. I did it for my own grade, right? I would have put the same effort in. Why should my friend not get a copy?

Putting aside the ethical issue of plagiarism, because that doesn't apply in the photo case, I wouldn't email him a copy because it's my work, my research and effort and internet connection that went into creating the paper, and if my friend wants a two page paper he can create one himself.

bloo

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Re: Another vacation etiquette question
« Reply #34 on: December 30, 2012, 10:31:53 PM »
You went to all that trouble, just as you describe, true.

But you did it for you, because you wanted to, without any thought about your companion entering in to the decision. You would, I assume, have done exactly the same thing if you had been alone.

What does it cost you to be generous? It doesn't suddenly change all that you decided at the outset. What would it cost you to give him the photos? You will have no less at the end whether you share or not.

This isn't the exact same situation, I realise, but here's an analogy. I write a two page paper on Columbus for history class. My friend at another school also has to write a two page paper for their history class. Mine is submitted, graded, done. My friend asks me to give them a copy to hand in. I did it for my own grade, right? I would have put the same effort in. Why should my friend not get a copy?

Putting aside the ethical issue of plagiarism, because that doesn't apply in the photo case, I wouldn't email him a copy because it's my work, my research and effort and internet connection that went into creating the paper, and if my friend wants a two page paper he can create one himself.

Excellent point CakeEater and while plagiarism doesn't apply, copyright certainly does. If it's my copy, I have all the rights to it.

Magician5 you asked "What does it cost you to be generous?....What would it cost you to give him the photos?"

See, those questions make me think that this is not a clear concept for some: when you create something you have a personal proprietary interest in it. When you create a photograph, painting, novel, song or other such piece, it is yours in perpetuity to do with as you please. Control of your work can be handed down to your heirs. If there are no heirs, then it may come under public use. 

Even if you share it, you have a controlling interest in it unless you choose to give it up.

When you put something of yourself in something you create, the cost may be quite high personally to 'give it up'. No one else gets to determine what the value is. For everyone there is a different value threshold. 

delabela

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Re: Another vacation etiquette question
« Reply #35 on: December 30, 2012, 10:38:14 PM »
I would be extremely put off if a friend to whom I was close enough to travel with refused to let me have pictures they took of our vacation (although I certainly agree I would have asked nicely).  If there is a caveat, such as don't put the pictures on facebook, I think you could stipulate to that at the time of transfer.  I understand what people are saying about wanting to protect (general) your work, but this isn't a stranger off the street or cousin Bob's best friend's roommate asking for a favor, it's a friend. 

I would feel differently if you took the pictures for a professional reason. 

bloo

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Re: Another vacation etiquette question
« Reply #36 on: December 30, 2012, 10:44:52 PM »
I would be extremely put off if a friend to whom I was close enough to travel with refused to let me have pictures they took of our vacation (although I certainly agree I would have asked nicely).  If there is a caveat, such as don't put the pictures on facebook, I think you could stipulate to that at the time of transfer.  I understand what people are saying about wanting to protect (general) your work, but this isn't a stranger off the street or cousin Bob's best friend's roommate asking for a favor, it's a friend. 

I would feel differently if you took the pictures for a professional reason.

Yes, but no one else gets to decide if MY reasons for keeping my creation available for my own use are 'good enough' reasons. Just because those reason are not good enough in your (general) eyes, doesn't mean I'm on the hook to give away my creation. It's mine. I made it. I don't have to legitimize my reasons for not sharing to anyone.

Hopefully those who think differently will respect a kindly said, "I'm afraid that won't be possible."


delabela

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Re: Another vacation etiquette question
« Reply #37 on: December 30, 2012, 10:55:55 PM »
Quote
Yes, but no one else gets to decide if MY reasons for keeping my creation available for my own use are 'good enough' reasons. Just because those reason are not good enough in your (general) eyes, doesn't mean I'm on the hook to give away my creation. It's mine. I made it. I don't have to legitimize my reasons for not sharing to anyone.

Hopefully those who think differently will respect a kindly said, "I'm afraid that won't be possible."

That's true that no one is under an obligation to explain themselves.  I guess for me, without some sort of explanation or cluing me in to why the pictures were off limits, it would probably have a cooling effect on the relationship.  Not sharing the pictures is just not part of my experiences in the dynamics of my friendships, but that's my personal experience. 

bloo

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Re: Another vacation etiquette question
« Reply #38 on: December 30, 2012, 11:09:37 PM »
That's true that no one is under an obligation to explain themselves.  I guess for me, without some sort of explanation or cluing me in to why the pictures were off limits, it would probably have a cooling effect on the relationship.  Not sharing the pictures is just not part of my experiences in the dynamics of my friendships, but that's my personal experience.

Several posters that do photography have mentioned their reasons for not handing over their creations. If you became friends with a person for whom photography was a profession or a serious hobby, would you accept the explanation that PP's have given?

See I think most people are not pro's or serious hobbyists so, in my experience, most people hand over photos, in whatever format, with no problems. But the fact that most do this doesn't mean that someone who holds back isn't being a true friend.

Last year my sibling and one of my parents and I went overseas. I didn't even bring a camera because I take lousy pictures and my sibling and parent document EVERYTHING photographically. I also already know that they would offer to give me all their pictures and video; which is exactly what they did. I had an expectation that they set me up for. But I have a lot of pro photographers in my circle of friends so I have no expectations of their work and am grateful for the pictures they do give me. It would cause no problem at all for them to tell me 'no' at a request of one of their shots.

To me it's akin to someone coming into my home and seeing something of mine that has value to me and asking 'can I have that?'

I know it's a photo. I know it can be duplicated so that I can still have the original. But the image is what's important and once I give that away I lose control of that image no differently than if I let someone take something out of my home that is mine. 

Onyx_TKD

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Re: Another vacation etiquette question
« Reply #39 on: December 30, 2012, 11:11:13 PM »
Let's say the friend speaks French because he spent the time, considerable effort and money to learn French. You did not.  Your choice. You could have learned French at some point in your life, but you chose not to do so. You were expecting that when you two went to Paris, that he would translate for you. But then the two of you get to Paris and he refuses to translate for you.

How would you feel about your friend and the friendship?

I don't think this example as presented is quite comparable to the OP (or at least, it is too simplified).

I speak German and have traveled in German-speaking areas with non German speakers. I was usually happy to play translator, however, there were some very important caveats. A) The people I was traveling with either reciprocated (e.g., the French speaker played translator for me when we were in French-speaking areas) or were visiting the German-speaking areas at my suggestion/invitation (e.g., my family visiting me when I lived there). B) My fellow travelers made an effort to learn basic German phrases and use them appropriately, instead of assuming that I would handle everything. C) They did not demand non-essential translations. If they wanted something translated for their own interest, they asked me to translate (or I volunteered the translation because I guessed that it would interest them). And finally D) if I was unable to translate something for any reason, they dealt with that without complaint and handled the situation as best they could, just as they would have without a translator.

The OP's friend told (not asked) her to give him all of her photos. In terms of translating, I think this is analogous to something like going to a German art exhibit, and my companion demanding that I translate all the German exhibit labels for him. One might think this is trivial--if I'm reading and understanding the labels myself, why can't I tell him what it says? But it's not that simple. I'm not translating it in my head as I read, so I can't just say it out loud in English, and understanding the gist of something I read in German is easier than trying to translate it for an English speaker. I'm usually willing to try, but I expect to be met halfway. This hypothetical friend could view and appreciate the art without reading all of the labels (just as the OP's friend got to enjoy the trip whether he gets her photos or not), so my translations aren't essential. He could be selective and ask only about the pieces he was particularly interested in (like the OP's friend could have asked if he could have copies of a few specific images). He could just let me choose which information I thought was important or interesting enough to translate (as the OP's friend could have waited to see if any photos were freely offered). He could find out if there was any English-language form of the basic exhibit information, e.g., an English-language brochure or audio guide (like the OP's friend could have brought his own camera equipment). If he instead felt entitled to translations of everything, made no effort to cut back to a more reasonable request, and kept insisting after I said I wouldn't translate everything, and especially if he didn't even bother to act appreciative of the translations I was doing for him, then I'd be seriously ticked off. He should have hired a professional translator if that's what he wanted.

My traveling companions aren't entitled to an on-demand translation service just because I speak German, nor are the OP's entitled to all her photos just because she's a good photographer, unless that is agreed upon beforehand. That doesn't mean that I won't translate or that the OP will refuse to share any photos. On the contrary, I'm usually happy to try and translate for my friends and family. However, polite requests and some appreciation for those favors (which is what they are) is IMO the absolute minimum that should be offered if you wish to receive translations/photos/etc. And if you want lots of translations/photos/etc., then either reach an explicit agreement in advance, hire a professional, or be ready to accept the answer "no."

CakeEater

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Re: Another vacation etiquette question
« Reply #40 on: December 30, 2012, 11:27:55 PM »
Quote
Yes, but no one else gets to decide if MY reasons for keeping my creation available for my own use are 'good enough' reasons. Just because those reason are not good enough in your (general) eyes, doesn't mean I'm on the hook to give away my creation. It's mine. I made it. I don't have to legitimize my reasons for not sharing to anyone.

Hopefully those who think differently will respect a kindly said, "I'm afraid that won't be possible."

That's true that no one is under an obligation to explain themselves.  I guess for me, without some sort of explanation or cluing me in to why the pictures were off limits, it would probably have a cooling effect on the relationship.  Not sharing the pictures is just not part of my experiences in the dynamics of my friendships, but that's my personal experience.

As I said earlier, I take bad photos. And they're very rarely of a subject that anyone would be interested in. And I didn't put any effort into them beyond pointing the camera I got for christmas a few years ago and pushing the button. So, really, anyone I know is welcome to any photos I take.

However, people who are interested in photography research the type of cameras, lenses, tripods,lighting equipment, camera case, photo imaging software, etc that they think does the best job, and they spend a lot of money buying them.

Then they either take classes,  or they read books or manuals or blogs on lighting and composition and photo editing etc (I don't know that much about photography).

Then they go out and spend hours, days, or years practising taking photos and they wait for the best light, and they cart all their equipment places in order to do that until they get quite good at it.

Then they sit at their computer and they learn how to use their photo editing software and they spend time on each photo doing whatever they do to make it the image they want.

I wouldn't think badly of someone, who after all that, didn't want to just hand over the final product of all that time, effort and research just because someone asked for it.


TurtleDove

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Re: Another vacation etiquette question
« Reply #41 on: December 30, 2012, 11:43:17 PM »
I wouldn't think badly of someone, who after all that, didn't want to just hand over the final product of all that time, effort and research just because someone asked for it.
I wouldn't think "badly" of such a person, but especially if I was there when the photo was taken and was in the photo I would find it offputting.  My relationship would cool.  For the OP, of course she can protect her work product. It's hers to protect.  But she cannot also expect that her friend who was there with her will not think it's weird she won't share her photos. 

delabela

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Re: Another vacation etiquette question
« Reply #42 on: December 30, 2012, 11:49:38 PM »
Quote
I wouldn't think badly of someone, who after all that, didn't want to just hand over the final product of all that time, effort and research just because someone asked for it.

I think perhaps I am thinking of a narrower situation than you are.  As I stated, if I were in this particular situation ((1)on vacation and (2)with a friend) I would find it strange and alienating if they were not open to sharing their pictures.  I do not expect any person I am with to share any picture they happen to take - such as a picture taken at dinner at the local pub by a friend of a friend.  However, as I consider the whole point of sharing a vacation with someone to have new experiences/memories, I would find a friend's unwillingness to share pictures odd (provided I had asked nicely and offered my own pictures).  Several people close to me are in professions (including photography) that some people tend to take advantage of, and I wouldn't dream of assuming I would be provided a freebie when they are in "professional mode."  But all of them have freely shared creations that were made in "friend mode," which I greatly appreciate.

It does sound like the OP's friend was not particularly considerate in how he asked, and OP attempted to find a middle ground.  I suppose I'm just saying that I can understand where he was coming from, even if he went about it particularly gracelessly.

On another note, I appreciate hearing the other views on this topic - it helps me to recognize my own assumptions. 

buvezdevin

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Re: Another vacation etiquette question
« Reply #43 on: December 30, 2012, 11:52:29 PM »
I wouldn't think badly of someone, who after all that, didn't want to just hand over the final product of all that time, effort and research just because someone asked for it.
I wouldn't think "badly" of such a person, but especially if I was there when the photo was taken and was in the photo I would find it offputting.  My relationship would cool.  For the OP, of course she can protect her work product. It's hers to protect.  But she cannot also expect that her friend who was there with her will not think it's weird she won't share her photos.
Anyone thinking "not sharing" of anything is weird does not make it weird, nor mean that the expectant recipient's view is of greater import than the view of the person who is expected to share.
Never refuse to do a kindness unless the act would work great injury to yourself, and never refuse to take a drink -- under any circumstances.
Mark Twain

Amara

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Re: Another vacation etiquette question
« Reply #44 on: December 30, 2012, 11:55:12 PM »
I would hope that my friend would be able to understand and respect the fact that to me these are works of art that I have worked very hard to create, that they are special to me, and that because I do not want to share them (other than the ones I gave him that had him in it and so should be special to him) I am no less a friend. I have an art I have worked hard on for my own pleasure. It is my right to keep what I want for myself and while yes, the friend can cool the relationship based on that, it is, in my opinion, a poor friend who would pit his own wishes against my feelings.

I would never disrespect another friend's developed craft (knitting, crocheting, baking, sculpting, painting, woodworking, etc.) by demanding or even requesting a free piece.