Another vacation etiquette question

[ettiquit]

I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I completely understand the OP's viewpoint.

I am an amateur photographer and have an expensive camera and some special lighting equipment.  When I take this camera on vacations, it's for two purposes:

1.  Fun vacation shots
2.  Shots that may end up in my photography collection that I would consider to be my art.

I vet the pictures afterwards and share anything that I'm not planning on putting in my collection.

It's not "just a picture" to photography enthusiasts.  It's art.

[Firecat]

I think expanding this to hypotheticals of anything other than photos of a shared vacation is pointless. My take on this, as others have stated, is based specifically on photographs of a shared vacation. To me, it seems really odd that the OP won't share her photos with her friend. Of course she is within her "rights" not to share and the friend is not "entitled" to anything. As I understood this situation, the OP is not a professional photographer and does not intend to sell the photos. Obviously, not everyone agrees but I would be offended if I were the friend, especially because the OP apparently never explained she was not willing to share. In my circles, it is assumed photos will be shared.

And that's in your circle. It's not an assumption in mine, for example.

Honestly, this whole thing is part of what really troubles me about people sometimes - if someone is a friend, wouldn't you (general you, not just you specifically, Turtledove) consider giving them the benefit of the doubt and maybe either figure that their point of view is different from yours on this particular subject, and maybe they have their reasons?

Maybe even ask them what those reasons are before pulling back from the friendship? Especially if the person has been kind and supportive, even generous, otherwise? If such things have been "just assumed" in the past for you, for a friend maybe it's worth re-examining some of those assumptions...which can occasionally be an interesting exercise, if nothing else? Yes, sometimes it's uncomfortable or even embarrassing when I realize that someone I care about thinks or feels very differently about a seemingly-ordinary, even minor, issue than I do...but it can be enlightening, too.

[GreenHall]

I generally bring a camera on trips, special events, etc. (and often remember to bring the charger on vacation too). 
...and that is generally as close as I get to taking pictures.  I just don't wind up digging the camera out, and actually taking pictures (I get upset that what I see and what the camera sees don't match up). 
 On the other hand if I was traipsing around on vacation/day trip with someone who kept pausing to do photography (as opposed to my snapshots), I would take that opportunity to snap some pics too. 

So I feel the friend had the opportunity to have the fun vacation pics, if he had wanted to take them.  He had a camera available (even a bulky, not as high quality one as the iPad has).  He either chose not to take the memory pics, or was assuming the entire time that he would get a copy of the OPs.  Without I any way helping with equipmen, or communicating that he expected pics.

Depending on the friends general friendship culture, i can see giving a small pass for having the expectation. 
Everything after the first request (and generous receipt of pics of him) I would call rude on his part.

(also wow did I get wordy, and I hope I'm remembering gender correctly)

[snowdragon]

Those things may be valuable...but they may not be something the photographer is willing to "exchange" for their work. There is an assumption here that the photographer has to give over their work, because the asker wants them - possibly because the asker did something that the asker deems a fair trade - where in all this does the photographer have any right to determine the course of their own work.  Just because it's a shared trip does not mean anyone has to share their work. 
  Honestly- just because you would offer up space, or your ability to do currency exchanges - does not mean everyone wants to/has to give over what you want them too.  I would not have offered up my space...that would mean I have less space to bring back what I want to bring back, and I pack light especially so I can bring back more stuff.  ( I have actually bought and shipped clothes home in order to save airplane space) - but the person who took the pictures gets to decide what is fair compensation, or even if they want to exchange services - not other travelers.
 

[ettiquit]

Years ago I went on a vacation with very close friends.  I wasn't that into photography yet and only had a semi-good camera.  I took a bunch of pics as did one other person in our party.  We both shared all of our photos (as was expected), but there was one shot that I took that turned out really, really well.  It's what sparked my interest in photography.  I didn't want to include the picture in the ones I shared but I wasn't sure why, so I did.  No dramatic ending to that story, but future "great" shots will be shown to people, not shared.

[Firecat]

Those things may be valuable...but they may not be something the photographer is willing to "exchange" for their work. There is an assumption here that the photographer has to give over their work, because the asker wants them - possibly because the asker did something that the asker deems a fair trade - where in all this does the photographer have any right to determine the course of their own work.  Just because it's a shared trip does not mean anyone has to share their work. 
  Honestly- just because you would offer up space, or your ability to do currency exchanges - does not mean everyone wants to/has to give over what you want them too.  I would not have offered up my space...that would mean I have less space to bring back what I want to bring back, and I pack light especially so I can bring back more stuff.  ( I have actually bought and shipped clothes home in order to save airplane space) - but the person who took the pictures gets to decide what is fair compensation, or even if they want to exchange services - not other travelers.
 

Thank you, snowdragon; I was trying to put my finger on what bothered me about that specific scenario, and you stated it really well. I don't see anything wrong with that kind of exchange, provided that it's discussed up front and all involved parties are ok with it. But maybe the photographer friend would rather, for example, buy their friend's lunch during the trip, or buy the friend a nice gift, or pay the friend's admission to a special event during the trip, or something like that. Or maybe they'd be fine sharing pictures or at least providing a nice selection of photos. But it shouldn't, in my opinion, be assumed - it should be talked about up front, and neither party should be pressured.

[miranova]

I have read every post and I still don't get it.  This is a friend that you were close enough to travel with.  A lot of the responses are about strangers, acquaintences, and family that take advantage or want professional services for free.  I don't see how that applies here.  Just like I'd drive a close friend to the airport or babysit for them or tutor their children, I wouldn't think twice about sharing any and all photos/recipes/ or other special skills with them.  I wouldn't do these things for acquaintances or people who take advantage.  I assume this is a reciprocal friendship where your friend does favors for you as well sometimes?

I don't understand the insistence that the OP's view is not "wrong".  No one is arguing right or wrong or that she has some kind of actual obligation to share the photos.  But just as OP is entitled to keep the photos, her friend is entitled to find it odd.  Just as I don't "have to" drive my friend to the airport, my friend can find it odd if I just flat out say no with no reason given when she has done favors for me in the past.  This is a relationship, not a court of law.  Nobody has to do anything, but I think it's a normal request among friends who have just traveled together.

[PastryGoddess]

OP has said that her friend has a habit of sharing pictures that other people have taken as HIS.  Based on this and the utterly rude way he went about "requesting" her pictures, what she did makes sense.

I don't think she would have posted if

• Friend nicely asked for pictures
• Friend didn't ask repeatedly all pics after being given some
• Friend wasn't known to claim pictures he didn't take as his

[Firecat]

I have read every post and I still don't get it.  This is a friend that you were close enough to travel with.  A lot of the responses are about strangers, acquaintences, and family that take advantage or want professional services for free.  I don't see how that applies here.  Just like I'd drive a close friend to the airport or babysit for them or tutor their children, I wouldn't think twice about sharing any and all photos/recipes/ or other special skills with them.  I wouldn't do these things for acquaintances or people who take advantage.  I assume this is a reciprocal friendship where your friend does favors for you as well sometimes?

I don't understand the insistence that the OP's view is not "wrong".  No one is arguing right or wrong or that she has some kind of actual obligation to share the photos.  But just as OP is entitled to keep the photos, her friend is entitled to find it odd.  Just as I don't "have to" drive my friend to the airport, my friend can find it odd if I just flat out say no with no reason given when she has done favors for me in the past.  This is a relationship, not a court of law.  Nobody has to do anything, but I think it's a normal request among friends who have just traveled together.

You think it's normal...not everyone does. And as I said above, if someone is a friend, and (as you said) has done favors for you in the past, but says no to this, is it not worth some examination of your underlying assumptions, and thinking that perhaps your friend simply has a different point of view on this topic than you do?

[Amara]

Here's a scenario. My friend and I are at the Eiffel Tower. She shoots a bunch of pictures with her iPhone. I shoot some pictures too. All standard travel stuff, pretty, interesting but nothing worthy of being called art.

We then separate because she wants to wander in gift shops and such. I want to just wander about, seeing if there is anything that might make a special photograph. And I find one! (I actually did this, and got a very unusual and special shot.) So I make the image rather than just taking another picture. I set it up. I wait for the right moment.

I come home and that shot, out of many, turns out to be of near-professional quality. I am encouraged by a pro I know to enter it into a contest. I don't do that but I do blow it up and frame it.

Now, my friend has all her own pictures to remember the day and the place. I might give her one or two of mine, but there is no way I am going to share *this* image. It is a piece of art I created, not just a picture.

What disturbs me most about this discussion is the sense that the art the OP shot should be shared as easily as the pictures she took. There's a massive difference, and it took the OP a lot of time and money to develop her eye so that she has the ability to recognize a scene that can be turned into art. The difference between an artistic image and a photograph can be compared to the difference between a fine English cheddar and Velveta. Nothing wrong with either, but they are not the same thing at all.

[TurtleDove]

POD to miranova.  I think some posters are addressing this as though there is a "right" and "wrong" answer.  What some of us are saying is that the OP can do whatever she wants with her photos for whatever reason.  She cannot, however, expect that not sharing will be well received.  As some of us have stated, unless this was addressed before hand, it comes across as borderline rude to me.  I take a lot of photos, and I think a lot of them turn out really well, especially of my daughter.  I share them with everyone because I think they are great photos!  I don't care whether people think, "Wow, TurtleDove is an amazing photographer."  That's not the point to me - the point is to enjoy the image.  I think what rubs me the wrong way in the OP is that she seems to want to be praised or something for the images she shoots, and that, to me, is weird on a trip with a friend. For me, I would want to share my best shots because it would be about the memory.

[Surianne]

Those things may be valuable...but they may not be something the photographer is willing to "exchange" for their work. There is an assumption here that the photographer has to give over their work, because the asker wants them - possibly because the asker did something that the asker deems a fair trade - where in all this does the photographer have any right to determine the course of their own work.  Just because it's a shared trip does not mean anyone has to share their work. 
  Honestly- just because you would offer up space, or your ability to do currency exchanges - does not mean everyone wants to/has to give over what you want them too.  I would not have offered up my space...that would mean I have less space to bring back what I want to bring back, and I pack light especially so I can bring back more stuff.  ( I have actually bought and shipped clothes home in order to save airplane space) - but the person who took the pictures gets to decide what is fair compensation, or even if they want to exchange services - not other travelers.
 

Is this in reply to me?  It's a few posts down so I'm not sure...if so, I think something got lost in the communcation here. 

I absolutely don't see doing favours and contributing to the enjoyment of a trip as "exchanging services" or "fair compensation."  When I let my friend have space in my bag rather than making her incur the $100 fee, I did it because she's my friend, and I knew because of how I pack that I had plenty of space to offer.  Ditto when I helped her with math.  Not because I thought it bought me her photos later.  I assumed she'd share her photos because she's my friend and that's generally how it goes when I travel with friends.

I'm simply explaining the point of view that going on a trip is often about sharing different things that we're good at.   So I can see why the OP's friend would be surprised and a bit dismayed. 

Does that mean the OP *has* to give the friend the photos?  Of course not; but I can see why the friend would be surprised, and why other posters have said it would change how they looked at the friendship, at least in terms of travelling.  I can also see why the OP would be dismayed at the friend demanding rather than asking nicely. 

[miranova]

POD to miranova.  I think some posters are addressing this as though there is a "right" and "wrong" answer.  What some of us are saying is that the OP can do whatever she wants with her photos for whatever reason.  She cannot, however, expect that not sharing will be well received. 

Exactly.  If it's that important to you to keep the photos to yourself, to the point that you are willing to have your friend think you are being a bit selfish, then you need to own that.  You can't decide that since your choice to keep the photos is not "wrong" that everyone has to like it or find it understandable and not change their opinion of you.   

If in fact the friend has a history of passing off the OP's photos as his own, that certainly makes it more understandable but if even after that breach of trust you are still close enough to travel with a him, are you not close enough to say "I'd rather not give you these since you posted them last time without crediting me".  The hemming and hawing I just don't get.  If you are going to say no, own it.

[miranova]

Those things may be valuable...but they may not be something the photographer is willing to "exchange" for their work. There is an assumption here that the photographer has to give over their work, because the asker wants them - possibly because the asker did something that the asker deems a fair trade - where in all this does the photographer have any right to determine the course of their own work.  Just because it's a shared trip does not mean anyone has to share their work. 
  Honestly- just because you would offer up space, or your ability to do currency exchanges - does not mean everyone wants to/has to give over what you want them too.  I would not have offered up my space...that would mean I have less space to bring back what I want to bring back, and I pack light especially so I can bring back more stuff.  ( I have actually bought and shipped clothes home in order to save airplane space) - but the person who took the pictures gets to decide what is fair compensation, or even if they want to exchange services - not other travelers.
 

I absolutely don't see doing favours and contributing to the enjoyment of a trip as "exchanging services" or "fair compensation."  When I let my friend have space in my bag rather than making her incur the $100 fee, I did it because she's my friend, and I knew because of how I pack that I had plenty of space to offer.  Ditto when I helped her with math.  Not because I thought it bought me her photos later.  I assumed she'd share her photos because she's my friend and that's generally how it goes when I travel with friends.

 

Agree.  This is where I am coming from.

[Audrey Quest]

Where does "sharing" enter into this?  He never asked her to "share."  He demanded that she upload all her pictures onto his ipad.  That's unreasonable.

People keep saying that if she was close enough to this person to vacation wtih them then why wouldnt she share her pictures.  Well, presumably this guy was close enough to vacation wtih her, so why wouldn't he be content to wait until she had a chance to go through her pictures, sort them and decide what she wanted to share?

Sharing oictures on FB or via email or printed out is one thing.  This guy wanted all the raw pictures off her memory card.  That's not "sharing."