Another vacation etiquette question

[CakeEater]

Sounds like something that should be discussed at the outset of the trip. OP's friend could have said, "I don't plan to tske many pics. Do you mind sharing yours?"

I must admit, though, that to me, under those circumstances (frirndship, traveling together, etc.) an answer of "no" or "only the ones that aren't the best" would leave me pretty cold. Am I supposed to offer to purchase the good ones?

To me, it isn't like a haircut, legal advice, etc.  Photos can be and are easily shared. I get the art aspect, but is art supposed to be hoarded by the artist? I know that the answer is yes for some, and of course that is their right, but I would be very put off by this position from a good friend.

Why does the fact that it's technologically easy to give him her photos mean that she should? Should an author hand over the manuscript to their latest novel because it's easy to attach it to an email?

It's the person who creates the art who gets to decide whether it's hoarded, shared, or sold for profit. Why is a photographer expected not to 'hoard' their own artwork, like a painter would, just because it's easy to attach a cord to their camera and give their images to someone else these days? Would you consider it 'hoarding' for someone to paint a picture and hang it on their own wall? And to refuse to allow someone to take a photograph and make a print for their own wall? I don't see the difference.

[citadelle]

Why does the fact that it's technologically easy to give him her photos mean that she should? Should an author hand over the manuscript to their latest novel because it's easy to attach it to an email?

It's the person who creates the art who gets to decide whether it's hoarded, shared, or sold for profit. Why is a photographer expected not to 'hoard' their own artwork, like a painter would, just because it's easy to attach a cord to their camera and give their images to someone else these days? Would you consider it 'hoarding' for someone to paint a picture and hang it on their own wall? And to refuse to allow someone to take a photograph and make a print for their own wall? I don't see the difference.

I am not friends with any professional photographer. If my friend started calling her photos art, I would be surprised.

[GeauxTigers]

(Full-frame Nikon shooter here.)

Send him all 650 photos. In RAW format. Including all of of the bad angles, blurred shots, over and under-exposed shots, and the 30 shots of the same scene with slightly different camera settings. Without any post processing.   

This.  Watch those RAW files eat up his iPad's memory with a quickness. Even better if they were shot with 24 MP or larger resolution. The Nikon D800 is 36MP  and boy oh boy those files are HUGE. 

Even better (this takes a little time, though) - send him a contact sheet of low-resolution PDFs that he can't right-click on.

[bloo]

Sounds like something that should be discussed at the outset of the trip. OP's friend could have said, "I don't plan to tske many pics. Do you mind sharing yours?"

I must admit, though, that to me, under those circumstances (frirndship, traveling together, etc.) an answer of "no" or "only the ones that aren't the best" would leave me pretty cold. Am I supposed to offer to purchase the good ones?

To me, it isn't like a haircut, legal advice, etc.  Photos can be and are easily shared. I get the art aspect, but is art supposed to be hoarded by the artist? I know that the answer is yes for some, and of course that is their right, but I would be very put off by this position from a good friend.

Huh? You think that for someone to keep what they created and own is hoarding?

[snowdragon]

It does not matter if the photographer is a professional - it's still their property we are talking about.  Just because you are my travel companion does not mean you have any right to my property.  That level of entitlement would end my friendship with anyone who had it. 
 

[citadelle]

Huh? You think that for someone to keep what they created and own is hoarding?

No, I think an average person keeping the best vacation shots for themselves is hoardish. As I mentioned, if a friend of mine referred to herself as an artist, I would be amused to say the least.

I am not referring to the OP, who may legitimately be an artist. Even then, though, it is curious that only the best of the shots are art, but not the ones with the friend in them.

[snowdragon]

Huh? You think that for someone to keep what they created and own is hoarding?

No, I think an average person keeping the best vacation shots for themselves is hoardish. As I mentioned, if a friend of mine referred to herself as an artist, I would be amused to say the least.

I am not referring to the OP, who may legitimately be an artist. Even then, though, it is curious that only the best of the shots are art, but not the ones with the friend in them.

The average person created and owns those shots.  I can not understand for the life of my why they are obligated to blithely hand them over to anyone in the travel party who asks.  If others wanted pretty pictures they could of have taken them - but they have no right to the property of someone else merely because they covet them.   
  Amateur or professional makes no never mind - it belongs to someone else they have the right to keep them.  And to me thinking badly of some one because they won't fork over on demand does not speak well of the demander.

[elephantschild]

Huh? You think that for someone to keep what they created and own is hoarding?

No, I think an average person keeping the best vacation shots for themselves is hoardish. As I mentioned, if a friend of mine referred to herself as an artist, I would be amused to say the least.

I am not referring to the OP, who may legitimately be an artist. Even then, though, it is curious that only the best of the shots are art, but not the ones with the friend in them.

Art is in the eye of the beholder. To be honest, I actually find it rather rude that you would be amused at a friend's work and her pride in it. How are you the judge of what's "an average person" vs. "legitimately an artist?"

And as far as it goes, why should "an average person" not have the same rights?

[citadelle]

I think we are just coming at this from two different perspectives, which is fine. As long as we don't travel together 

[Audrey Quest]

Where does "sharing" enter into this?.....

Sharing oictures on FB or via email or printed out is one thing.  This guy wanted all the raw pictures off her memory card.  That's not "sharing."

I don't see how any other word would apply since she still would have the photos herself as well.  How is it NOT sharing?

Sharing implies that there is one thing that is shared.  If she unloads her memory cards onto his computer there are now two things.
 
Many times, when someone shares something that one owns with another, they control the extent to which that thing is shared.

Essentially this guy is demanding unfettered access to her property.
 
It's the difference between someone asking you to share a recipe or two and someone asking you to give them your entire recipe box so that they can go through it and copy the whole thing for their own use.

[CakeEater]

Why does the fact that it's technologically easy to give him her photos mean that she should? Should an author hand over the manuscript to their latest novel because it's easy to attach it to an email?

It's the person who creates the art who gets to decide whether it's hoarded, shared, or sold for profit. Why is a photographer expected not to 'hoard' their own artwork, like a painter would, just because it's easy to attach a cord to their camera and give their images to someone else these days? Would you consider it 'hoarding' for someone to paint a picture and hang it on their own wall? And to refuse to allow someone to take a photograph and make a print for their own wall? I don't see the difference.

I am not friends with any professional photographer. If my friend started calling her photos art, I would be surprised.

But the OP is planning to enlarge, frame and hang her photos, and describes them as 'pretty amazing'. Just because you aren't friends with anyone who would call their photos art (I'm not either), doesn't mean that there aren't photographers who are artists.

[bloo]

Huh? You think that for someone to keep what they created and own is hoarding?

No, I think an average person keeping the best vacation shots for themselves is hoardish. As I mentioned, if a friend of mine referred to herself as an artist, I would be amused to say the least.

I am not referring to the OP, who may legitimately be an artist. Even then, though, it is curious that only the best of the shots are art, but not the ones with the friend in them.

Whether the photo is 'art' or not is irrelevant. The photos, even the crappy ones, belong to the OP. They're not public property or up for grabs by others who are in proximity to them being shot. People can feel proprietary interest in what is theirs. If my DH takes 600-700 shots of an event, we are NOT just giving them away to anyone who wants them.

We might share them after:

1) we go through them and delete bad shots
2) keep ones for ourselves (yes even the best ones)
3) give particular ones to particular people (yes even the best ones)
4) specify they're not to be shared on a social network.

That DH has a $2K camera for this is irrelevant. Their OUR pictures. To do with as we please or to leave on a dusty memory card and forget about. Friends and family may ask (and likely we would share) but no one is entitled to them and that doesn't make us hoarders if we choose not to.

[citadelle]

If I buy a meal and don't finish it, someone else at my table may want to do so. Snce I paid for the meal, I can say no, it is my right, but to do so would be pointless and, I would say, hoardish (I know that is not actually a word). It is my meal to do with as I please, but I might end up a lonely diner.

[bloo]

If I buy a meal and don't finish it, someone else at my table may want to do so. Snce I paid for the meal, I can say no, it is my right, but to do so would be pointless and, I would say, hoardish (I know that is not actually a word). It is my meal to do with as I please, but I might end up a lonely diner.

It is not wrong to say 'yes'. It is also not wrong to say 'no'. You do not get to decide that it is 'pointless' for me to say 'no'. I might want the leftovers. It's not 'hoardish*' to do so.


*This is the Internet. If we use it enough times it can become a real word!

[miranova]

The explanations keep changing and are getting confusing.

First, we just don't understand because we don't know the difference between regular travel photos and art. 
(pretty interesting assumption).
Then, it doesn't matter whether or not it's art because anyone has the right to keep their own property.

Both of which still miss the fact that no one is suggesting that the photos be taken by force.  The photographer is always allowed to say no.  And the travel companion is allowed to think that that is a bit odd. 

In fact, the only thing being stated in this thread on this side of it is that certain people would find the refusal odd.  Nothing more.  Yet words like "not obligated, not entitled, my property, my rights, my art" etc keep getting thrown around as if anyone is even remotely debating a photographer's right to keep their photos.  We all agree that it is your property and you can keep it. 

I think the only thing the travel companion did wrong was to expect the photos without asking nicely first.  I think anytime someone asks for something they do so with an expectation of at least possibly getting a yes, otherwise we would never ask anyone for anything!  So I don't think an expectation of probably getting a yes is wrong or "entitled", but I do think asking nicely is required.  Of course, he should take no for an answer and not push.  But I can understand why this didn't go down well, since the OP herself admits that she had a hard time giving a straight answer.  When someone won't give a straight yes or no answer, it is frustrating for everyone involved.