Another vacation etiquette question

[gramma dishes]

Sharing is voluntary.  It's something you do because you want to.

What he wanted doesn't qualify in that category.  He wanted immediate access to everything she had done.   The culmination of all her hard work, her financial investment in the equipment, her time to locate "special" viewpoints and scenes.  AND he wanted to be able to pick through her stuff before she did by demanding that she download the entire memory card into his device before she'd had the opportunity to download it into her own. 

That's not sharing.  That's taking.

I wouldn't have complied with that request either, although if he had said "I'd love to have copies of some of your pictures" I'd have been overjoyed to provide him with several after I had finished picking and choosing which ones to keep and which to alter and which to delete.  Choosing several, even some of my "best" ones, to copy for him to add to the pictures he'd taken himself would be my definition of "sharing".

I can't quite follow the food analogy, but to me it would be more like Friend orders a coke for $.49.  Photographer is starving and orders $30 worth of food and beverages, thinking she will eat some now and save some for the hotel room and/or the flight back home.  She plans  to share with him along the way.   But while she is paying,  Friend immediately grabs her food containers and starts picking through them for what he wants to eat before she's had the chance to choose what SHE wants to eat.  That's much more like what happened here with the pictures.

He does NOT get priority over her when it comes to deciding the fate of her pictures.  He wasn't asking to "share".  He wanted them all and he wanted them first.  If I were the photographer, I don't think I'd be too upset if Friend decided to cool the friendship a little.  To me he seems extremely self centered and greedy and totally oblivious to the effort and money and time she had put into getting those images.  "Sure, you got the pictures, but you're supposed to give them all to me." 

I don't think so.

[EMuir]

I can't quite follow the food analogy, but to me it would be more like Friend orders a coke for $.49.  Photographer is starving and orders $30 worth of food and beverages, thinking she will eat some now and save some for the hotel room and/or the flight back home.  She plans  to share with him along the way.   But while she is paying,  Friend immediately grabs her food containers and starts picking through them for what he wants to eat before she's had the chance to choose what SHE wants to eat.  That's much more like what happened here with the pictures.

Except he wouldn't have actually taken anything she didn't also have.  It's more like he touches every food container (not opens, just touches) to see what cool food she has.  Then she takes it away.

I agree that everyone has a right to not share their photos or recipes, at a whim.  And everyone else has a right to be hurt that they weren't considered to be trustworthy enough of a friend that they were not given the photo or recipe.  In this case may be the friend isn't trustworthy indeed.

[citadelle]

Sharing is voluntary.  It's something you do because you want to.. 

That's not sharing.  That's taking.

He does NOT get priority over her when it comes to deciding the fate of her pictures.  He wasn't asking to "share".  He wanted them all and he wanted them first.  If I were the photographer, I don't think I'd be too upset if Friend decided to cool the friendship a little.  To me he seems extremely self centered and greedy and totally oblivious to the effort and money and time she had put into getting those images.  "Sure, you got the pictures, but you're supposed to give them all to me." 

I don't think so.

If he is such a self centered, oblivious and greedy person, why are they traveling together? I think the assumption here is that they are friends and have a reason to think the best of each other, rather than the worst.

[buvezdevin]

Sharing is voluntary.  It's something you do because you want to.. 

That's not sharing.  That's taking.

He does NOT get priority over her when it comes to deciding the fate of her pictures.  He wasn't asking to "share".  He wanted them all and he wanted them first.  If I were the photographer, I don't think I'd be too upset if Friend decided to cool the friendship a little.  To me he seems extremely self centered and greedy and totally oblivious to the effort and money and time she had put into getting those images.  "Sure, you got the pictures, but you're supposed to give them all to me." 

I don't think so.

If he is such a self centered, oblivious and greedy person, why are they traveling together? I think the assumption here is that they are friends and have a reason to think the best of each other, rather than the worst.

He may be lovely in many respects, but we all have flaws.  And I have though personal experience, and vicariously, known of several instances where a trip together did lead to cooled relationships - sometimes unilateral, sometimes bilateral, including previously long standing close relationships.  In the present instance, it has been illuminating to me that people (including myself) may have a fairly strong view on this type of situation, but it is a far from uniform view.

[Firecat]

I can't quite follow the food analogy, but to me it would be more like Friend orders a coke for $.49.  Photographer is starving and orders $30 worth of food and beverages, thinking she will eat some now and save some for the hotel room and/or the flight back home.  She plans  to share with him along the way.   But while she is paying,  Friend immediately grabs her food containers and starts picking through them for what he wants to eat before she's had the chance to choose what SHE wants to eat.  That's much more like what happened here with the pictures.

Except he wouldn't have actually taken anything she didn't also have.  It's more like he touches every food container (not opens, just touches) to see what cool food she has.  Then she takes it away.

I agree that everyone has a right to not share their photos or recipes, at a whim.  And everyone else has a right to be hurt that they weren't considered to be trustworthy enough of a friend that they were not given the photo or recipe.  In this case may be the friend isn't trustworthy indeed.

He's not trustworthy and has already demonstrated it by posting pictures taken by the OP as his own. So to me, there's an aspect of "natural consequences" to the OP's refusal as well.

[Lindee]

The OP gave the friend photos of himself so it is not that she won't "share" ie give him her photos but a demand for all of the photos before the OP has had a chance to look at,  edit, weed out any embarrassing or private or cringe worthy pics first is unreasonable.  Among those 650 odd photos there will be mistakes, totally personal, photos they want to enter in competitions, put into exhibitions, or hastily delete before anyone else sees them etc.   

If you are close enough to vacation together and are still speaking afterwards than I'd expect that you would be willing to give a friend a selection of the photos after you have had a change to process and sort them,  but download the entire lot before that - no way.

[ladyknight1]

I think the OP is certainly not rude to refuse the demand of her traveling companion. When I travel, I take hundreds of photos per day. It takes me up to a month to go through them, pick the few I want to share with the world, and weed out the bad ones. DH and DFIL are serious hobby photographers. My good friend is a professional photographer.

Photographs are no different than any other intellectual property, they are the photographer's creations.

OP, the only thing I might do differently is to ask your friend which of your photos are his favorites and have those printed for him. That is only if you feel comfortable.

[kareng57]

I don't think that either OP or her friend were clearly "right" or "wrong" in this situation.  I will completely agree that he should have asked rather than just assumed re photo-sharing; however, he quite possibly previously always traveled with friends who were amateur (rather than professional-class) photographers and who readily shared photos.  OP was perfectly etiquettely-correct in saying "no" without an explanation (I do acknowledge that she did supply a few photos with him in it) - but if it was along the lines of "here are only the photos that show you" he might be kind of baffled and wonder what he'd done to offend her.

So I think, overall, that this is a situation where you (generic) can feel satisfied that what you did was not rude at all, yet it could cost a friendship.

[snowdragon]

I don't think that either OP or her friend were clearly "right" or "wrong" in this situation.  I will completely agree that he should have asked rather than just assumed re photo-sharing; however, he quite possibly previously always traveled with friends who were amateur (rather than professional-class) photographers and who readily shared photos.  OP was perfectly etiquettely-correct in saying "no" without an explanation (I do acknowledge that she did supply a few photos with him in it) - but if it was along the lines of "here are only the photos that show you" he might be kind of baffled and wonder what he'd done to offend her.

So I think, overall, that this is a situation where you (generic) can feel satisfied that what you did was not rude at all, yet it could cost a friendship.

And the bolded is why it's not a request. It's give me what I want or I am not your friend. If it's a friendship of equals - then saying no should not be the end of a friendship.   I have never had a friendship where I had to fork over everything a the other person wanted or else they'd not be my friend anymore - at least not since the 2nd grade.   
 

[DoubleTrouble]

As someone who will be purchasing a very expensive camera + accessories soon, this thread has been most enlightening. Personally I think the friend was rude to demand those pictures & that the OP was very nice to give him the pictures that he was in. If she wants to give him other pictures after they have been sorted & processed, I would highly recommend she put a watermark on them. I'll be making me own watermark soon, there are lots of great tutorials out there on how to do it!

[ettiquit]

I don't think that either OP or her friend were clearly "right" or "wrong" in this situation.  I will completely agree that he should have asked rather than just assumed re photo-sharing; however, he quite possibly previously always traveled with friends who were amateur (rather than professional-class) photographers and who readily shared photos.  OP was perfectly etiquettely-correct in saying "no" without an explanation (I do acknowledge that she did supply a few photos with him in it) - but if it was along the lines of "here are only the photos that show you" he might be kind of baffled and wonder what he'd done to offend her.

So I think, overall, that this is a situation where you (generic) can feel satisfied that what you did was not rude at all, yet it could cost a friendship.

And the bolded is why it's not a request. It's give me what I want or I am not your friend. If it's a friendship of equals - then saying no should not be the end of a friendship.   I have never had a friendship where I had to fork over everything a the other person wanted or else they'd not be my friend anymore - at least not since the 2nd grade.   
 

Exactly.

Some people have said that they would consider it "odd" to not be given all the pictures, and that's ok.  Thoughts aren't rude.  But if that ends up changing the way you treat your friend (especially if you cool it off), then you don't actually think your friend has a right to withhold the pictures.  Otherwise, there would be no reason for the dynamic of the friendship to change.


I also wondered if the OP took pics that were completely non-vacation related.  I like to play with my macro lens wherever I am, and I can't see a macro shot of anything being labeled as "yay, Paris!".  She may have taken some macro shots of pretty flowers, cool textures, etc.  There's nothing wrong or odd about her thinking "This picture is of the vacation" or "This picture is for me".

[Melde]

As an 'Artist' ( a label of which you obtain from you peers in the art world and not the general public), I may be at the beginning of my career, but that does not make my work less professional or worth of keeping control on where it surfaces. That is how I build a career, not hoard it to myself. This may surprise you, but galleries do not want work that is already 'owned' by people, and they definitely do not respekt teh Facebook. If you are treating it like a family photo, you can just keep it. Word will travel. They don't like it if you submit the same work to multiple shows either. They talk and you won't get chosen for either. So keeping a reign on your work is vital.

I also think the idea between vacation pictures and art pictures are getting confused.


This is a vacation picture I took when I was travelling with family. If they wanted a copy, here you go, great memories! Remember when we went to get slurpees and there was that random apple? classic!



However, on that trip, I also took some photos when people were busy with other things, and not at all interested in the environment- so no emotional investment for them, it has no connection to our travelling together. But I could sell posters easily. My sister would be like 'When did you take that?' When you were sleeping. 'Oh.' Sure, we were on the same trip in a general sense, but it is separate from the vacation as we experienced together.

[gramma dishes]

...   I also think the idea between vacation pictures and art pictures are getting confused.  ...

I do too, but I honestly don't think it matters.

I'm an avid amateur photographer, but I would rarely if ever consider my images "works of art".  However I still take my photography seriously and consider my images rather an extension of my brain's unique way of seeing (we all have unique ways of seeing) and my personality.

Even my own husband and I can stand side by side and take pictures of the "same" place/thing and they won't look even remotely similar.  Personality does go into how you see and observe what's in front of you and what you choose to include in that frame.

We nearly always travel in groups from as small as a total of three or four people to as many as twenty or so.  It is just basically understood that everyone is responsible for packing their own clothing and gear, bringing their own cash to cover expenses, getting to places and events on time, and taking their own pictures. 

There's no problem with sharing pictures in a variety of ways from individual web sites and emailing to actually printing out a few and handing them to people who might like them.  But no one has EVER expected to just be handed every picture taken by everyone else on the trip.

I don't buy souvenirs.  To me, my photographs are my souvenirs.  Other people take few (or no) pictures because they have little or no interest in doing so, but instead they buy things that remind them of the places we've seen.  We don't expect those people to "share" by handing over their purchases to us and they don't expect the photographers in the group to hand over all our pictures to them.

The pictures the OP took are her pictures.  No one else has the right to demand them.  She will probably quite willingly share what she chooses to share, but to me it is incredibly odd and quite presumptuous for her friend to just assume she will hand everything she has over to him. 

If he wanted more pictures, he should have taken more himself. 

[miranova]

I don't think that either OP or her friend were clearly "right" or "wrong" in this situation.  I will completely agree that he should have asked rather than just assumed re photo-sharing; however, he quite possibly previously always traveled with friends who were amateur (rather than professional-class) photographers and who readily shared photos.  OP was perfectly etiquettely-correct in saying "no" without an explanation (I do acknowledge that she did supply a few photos with him in it) - but if it was along the lines of "here are only the photos that show you" he might be kind of baffled and wonder what he'd done to offend her.

So I think, overall, that this is a situation where you (generic) can feel satisfied that what you did was not rude at all, yet it could cost a friendship.

And the bolded is why it's not a request. It's give me what I want or I am not your friend. If it's a friendship of equals - then saying no should not be the end of a friendship.   I have never had a friendship where I had to fork over everything a the other person wanted or else they'd not be my friend anymore - at least not since the 2nd grade.   
 

.  But if that ends up changing the way you treat your friend (especially if you cool it off), then you don't actually think your friend has a right to withhold the pictures.  Otherwise, there would be no reason for the dynamic of the friendship to change.

Here is where the disconnect lies.  I just don't agree with that logic. 

Just because someone CAN do something doesn't mean they get a guarantee that everyone will like it and still want to hang around with them as much. 

I have no problem respecting a "no" from anyone.  It's their decision.  And it's my decision who I want to invest my energy and time into.

**I'm not saying I would end a friendship over this, just that I disagree with this logic.**

[pickles50]

OP here again...

WOW, I didn't think this would solicit as much feedback as it did but I appreciate everyone's' insight on this. There were some things I had not considered that made me think. I have resolved to making my friend a small photo book with some of the pictures and I will not be handing over the digital copies. In the future, the next person I travel with I will make sure to make a point of saying something along the lines of "don't forget to pack a camera as a really do not like sharing my photos". I do however, feel that I do not owe my friend an explanation. I typically do not offer up explanation unless people ask for an explanation directly, as I really don't feel I need to justify my reasoning. Maybe bean-dipping out of the demand/request was not the best approach but I have found when people don't ask for an explanation directly they know the answer already. I honestly had no idea throughout our trip he was betting on getting copies of my pictures. In addition when I give people pictures I don't want to have a conversation with them about the stipulations of the pictures, because it seems like a gift with strings so I avoid it all together, friends or not.

A yr back I took some photos for a marketing project a friend was working on and when I uploaded them to her computer I  didn't realize she got a couple of unrelated ones. These pictures were of something that you can easily google or get a postcard but the quality of my photo was stellar. I only realized this mistake the following day when much to my chagrin these unrelated photos were posted on her facebook page, open to the world. So moving forward I guard my pictures tighter now.

Thank you!