Author Topic: Another vacation etiquette question  (Read 17253 times)

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bloo

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Re: Another vacation etiquette question
« Reply #210 on: January 03, 2013, 09:44:43 AM »
However her friend didn't ask, he demanded ...and that changes the whole nature of the interaction. 

Secondly he whined multiple times about not getting exactly what he wanted, and frankly if an adult is going to whine like a child I'm going to assume they are not ready to have an adult conversation.

But, as I stated in an earlier post, a "demand" can appear that way because the demander doesn't realise it's not part of the demandee's standard behaviour.

For instance, the friend in the OP said "go ahead and upload all your pictures to my ipad". That doesn't strike me as a particularly rude turn of phrase if your assumption (based on your experience) was that friends naturally share all the photos they take on a joint vacation.

If, on the other hand, your experience is that photos are a personal thing that are taken for your eyes only, I can see how that phrase would come across as a demand.

And "whining" multiple times seems to me a direct result of a close friend offering bean dip in lieu of an actual explanation - neither is particularly mature behaviour.

You had me until the bolded.

Whining is immature.

Bean-dipping is not.

The OP was not immature for bean-dipping. Her friend was either particularly dense or entitled to ignore her unstated but obvious lack of desire to turn over all her pictures right then.

She wasn't mature either. I agree, whining is always immature, but bean-dipping is not always mature. Sometimes it just is.

And in this particular case, I actually think it was rude. Rudeness as a response to direct immaturity perhaps, but rudeness nonetheless.

(Mind you, I am not saying the OP was rude for refusing to share all her photos. Just rude in how she went about it.)

I take from this that your opinion is that the OP is immature with rude behavior. I disagree.

bloo

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Re: Another vacation etiquette question
« Reply #211 on: January 03, 2013, 09:46:58 AM »
You had me until the bolded.

Whining is immature.

Bean-dipping is not.

The OP was not immature for bean-dipping. Her friend was either particularly dense or entitled to ignore her unstated but obvious lack of desire to turn over all her pictures right then.

The OP was particularly generous, IMO, ln going through her pix right then to give some to the friend.

The OP can now leave things as they are or she can go back to Whiner and say, "Remember, Whiner, at the end of the vacay when we discussed my pictures and your desire for them? About that, see this is how I feel about my photos..."

Only the OP can really know which option is better for current/future dealings with Whiner.

Thing is, "whining" is a subjective description - people very rarely believe themselves to be whining, it's more often perceived by others. And what one person may consider to be whining, others may consider to be "trying again".

Bean-dipping can be an appropriate, mature response to certain people in certain situations. But in other situations, it can lead to confusion as well as the breaking down of a relationship. If, as a response to a request for photos, someone gets told "No" followed by bean-dipping, I can see why they might think "maybe I caught her in a bad mood", "maybe she didn't understand what I meant", "maybe she'll have changed her mind", any one of which would be cause for the friend to re-ask the question, which the OP might then consider "whining".

I see what you're saying and I agree that could be the case. There's nothing wrong with an actual explanation. But, from the OP, I see nothing wrong with bean-dipping the whiner, either.

TurtleDove

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Re: Another vacation etiquette question
« Reply #212 on: January 03, 2013, 09:49:45 AM »
I see what you're saying and I agree that could be the case. There's nothing wrong with an actual explanation. But, from the OP, I see nothing wrong with bean-dipping the whiner, either.

My perspective is that all "whining" could have been prevented by either 1) the OP explaining her position before the vacation or 2) the OP explaining why she wouldn't share when the friend asked the first time.  The friend has no idea why the OP won't share at this point, and I still don't understand how bean dip is helpful to the situation or the relationship

bloo

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Re: Another vacation etiquette question
« Reply #213 on: January 03, 2013, 10:00:12 AM »
I see what you're saying and I agree that could be the case. There's nothing wrong with an actual explanation. But, from the OP, I see nothing wrong with bean-dipping the whiner, either.

My perspective is that all "whining" could have been prevented by either 1) the OP explaining her position before the vacation or 2) the OP explaining why she wouldn't share when the friend asked the first time.  The friend has no idea why the OP won't share at this point, and I still don't understand how bean dip is helpful to the situation or the relationship.

True and my perspective is that all the 'whining' could have been prevented by the friend not feeling entitled to the OP's pictures and respecting her re-direction, if not the first, then at least the second or third time.

So really we could just go in circles with a chicken/egg discussion. We just disagree.

While I'm generally direct with my friends there are times when I've felt it necessary to beandip, even repeatedly depending on the friend/acquaintance I'm dealing with.

So the OP didn't think to do it beforehand and it's up to her if she wants to do it now. I still don't think she has to but if the situation comes up again, then your #1 is an excellent idea.

camlan

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Re: Another vacation etiquette question
« Reply #214 on: January 03, 2013, 10:10:20 AM »
But explaining the OP's position on photograph sharing could just open up a  lot of arguments by the friend as to why her position is wrong. Anytime you offer an explanation, you open yourself up to a lot of nit-picking about why your position is wrong. It is sometimes the safer course to state your position without an explanation. "I'm sorry, I don't share my pictures. But for you, as a friend, I'll give you the pictures that you are in."

I'm a bit surprised that someone would break off a friendship over pictures. If I ask a friend for copies of pictures or a recipe or something similar, things that the majority of my friends would share without hesitation, I admit that I'm startled to get a "no" in response.

But I wouldn't break a friendship off over that "no." Instead, I'd realize that this friend has different opinions about sharing pictures or recipes. And that's something I just have to accept in order to maintain the friendship, just as the friend is probably accepting certain aspects of my behavior that aren't exactly in line with his/her feelings and beliefs.

Now, if the not-sharing was about more than just pictures or recipes, or if there were other aspects of the friend's behavior that started to bother me--let's say the friend never chips in gas money when being given a ride, never tips at restaurants, never shares anything, spreads mean gossip, etc.--then the not-sharing of pictures would become one part of a large set of reasons why I'd break off the friendship.

But to break off an otherwise good friendship due to one quirk of not sharing photographs seems a bit harsh to me.
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MariaE

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Re: Another vacation etiquette question
« Reply #215 on: January 03, 2013, 10:15:40 AM »
She wasn't mature either. I agree, whining is always immature, but bean-dipping is not always mature. Sometimes it just is.

And in this particular case, I actually think it was rude. Rudeness as a response to direct immaturity perhaps, but rudeness nonetheless.

(Mind you, I am not saying the OP was rude for refusing to share all her photos. Just rude in how she went about it.)

I take from this that your opinion is that the OP is immature with rude behavior. I disagree.

I'm not sure how you got that from what I wrote. Mature/immature isn't a black/white issue. There are shades of grey inbetween. I don't think the OP's actions were mature. I don't think the OP's actions were immature. They just were.

I do think the actions were rude, but that's got nothing to do with being mature/immature.
 
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Two Ravens

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Re: Another vacation etiquette question
« Reply #216 on: January 03, 2013, 10:28:01 AM »
But explaining the OP's position on photograph sharing could just open up a  lot of arguments by the friend as to why her position is wrong. Anytime you offer an explanation, you open yourself up to a lot of nit-picking about why your position is wrong. It is sometimes the safer course to state your position without an explanation. "I'm sorry, I don't share my pictures. But for you, as a friend, I'll give you the pictures that you are in."

I'm a bit surprised that someone would break off a friendship over pictures. If I ask a friend for copies of pictures or a recipe or something similar, things that the majority of my friends would share without hesitation, I admit that I'm startled to get a "no" in response.

But I wouldn't break a friendship off over that "no." Instead, I'd realize that this friend has different opinions about sharing pictures or recipes. And that's something I just have to accept in order to maintain the friendship, just as the friend is probably accepting certain aspects of my behavior that aren't exactly in line with his/her feelings and beliefs.

Now, if the not-sharing was about more than just pictures or recipes, or if there were other aspects of the friend's behavior that started to bother me--let's say the friend never chips in gas money when being given a ride, never tips at restaurants, never shares anything, spreads mean gossip, etc.--then the not-sharing of pictures would become one part of a large set of reasons why I'd break off the friendship.

But to break off an otherwise good friendship due to one quirk of not sharing photographs seems a bit harsh to me.

I don't think anyone has said that they would cut someone off over something like this. People have mentioned declining to vacation with someone, which I think is understandable, or stepping back from the friendship, but not outright dropping someone.

As you point out, sometimes these types of situations can be eye-opening, as you suddenly realize that you and your friend have very different values when it comes to things like sharing, and notions of friendship, and thus people who are more open withdraw to protect themselves from feeling rejected and people with stricter boundaries withdraw to avoid feeling trampled.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 10:32:39 AM by Two Ravens »

BuffaloFang

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Re: Another vacation etiquette question
« Reply #217 on: January 03, 2013, 10:48:15 AM »
I'm actually really quite baffled by the people who say the OP is off to not share her photos because it was a joint vacation.

Since it was a joint vacation and friend *was there*, why didn't he just take the same photo with his iPad, and not have to request the OPs photos? Is it maybe because the OP has taken the time and money to invest in her photography?

Whether or not she's a paid professional makes no difference - this is her artistic creation.  I draw and paint for fun, and have only once or twice been paid for my paintings.  That doesn't mean I should happily scan all of my paintings to give a digital copy to any of my friends who ask. 

I think if it's a friendship worth saving (though if a friendship falls apart because a friend refuses to allow you to keep your creative work, I'd be re-evaluating it), I'd watermark the images and then give them to him. But I don't think the OP is obligated to.

Victim Of Fate

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Re: Another vacation etiquette question
« Reply #218 on: January 03, 2013, 11:05:28 AM »
I'm actually really quite baffled by the people who say the OP is off to not share her photos because it was a joint vacation.

Since it was a joint vacation and friend *was there*, why didn't he just take the same photo with his iPad, and not have to request the OPs photos? Is it maybe because the OP has taken the time and money to invest in her photography?

Whether or not she's a paid professional makes no difference - this is her artistic creation.  I draw and paint for fun, and have only once or twice been paid for my paintings.  That doesn't mean I should happily scan all of my paintings to give a digital copy to any of my friends who ask. 

I think if it's a friendship worth saving (though if a friendship falls apart because a friend refuses to allow you to keep your creative work, I'd be re-evaluating it), I'd watermark the images and then give them to him. But I don't think the OP is obligated to.

I think the reasons why some people think the OP is a bit off are:

1) A lot of people naturally expect photos to be shared after a joint holiday. This is essentially a micro-cultural thing - if this behaviour is commonplace in your social circle/family, then you would consider it strange/unfriendly if someone thought this unacceptable.

2) The OP - and several others on this thread - think that bean-dipping was the appropriate response to subsequent requests. I think it's rude - flat-out rude. Bean-dipping is appropriate when someone behaves in an outrageous way but you don't want a confrontation. When it is a response to a friend asking a reasonable question, I think it's borderline PA.

Regarding the bolded text, it may be the case. There have certainly been occasions on holiday when I have had my kit with me and friends with a smartphone have not taken photos and later asked if they could get a copy of mine. I don't think it's rude. What's the point of a less able photographer taking a photo with an inferior camera if there's already going to be a better photo of the same image?

TurtleDove

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Re: Another vacation etiquette question
« Reply #219 on: January 03, 2013, 11:10:47 AM »
Some posters seem to be painting the friend in a very unfavorable light, as though he actively was trying to harm the OP by his "entitled" behavior of refusing to intuit that the OP did not want to share vacation photos even though she never explained this to him(some posters are even saying that he simply wanted to take advantage of her expensive equipment)!  I don't understand why the OP would be friends with, let alone vacation with, someone who is so awful!  I really think the friend did not have any malicious or rude intentions but this was a miscommunication that could have been prevented or solved if the OP simply explained where she was coming from instead of bean-dipping. And if the friend truly is an awful person, then the OP should just drop him.  But I don't think that's the case.

miranova

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Re: Another vacation etiquette question
« Reply #220 on: January 03, 2013, 11:18:17 AM »
"I'm sorry, I don't share my pictures. But for you, as a friend, I'll give you the pictures that you are in."


Did the OP ever actually say this?  If she did, I think that's probably sufficient.  From my understanding, she never even clearly said no, she just avoided the question.  Which is definitely rude, in my opinion.  I think refusing to give a direct answer to a reasonable question by someone you consider to be a friend is rude.  Just answer the question politely.

CluelessBride

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Re: Another vacation etiquette question
« Reply #221 on: January 03, 2013, 11:33:09 AM »
The thing about bean-dipping is that while it may be technically okay from an etiquette standpoint, it may have relationship consequences.

For example, your best friend invites you to her wedding, but you can't attend because you have a major surgery scheduled for that day and can't move it. Any decent friend would understand you needing to decline for that reason. But if in response to the wedding invite you said, "I'm sorry I can't make it. Have you seen the latest Twilight movie?"

And then when the friend asks again (perhaps confused by the bean-dip, or thinking you are joking because her original request seemed reasonable enough to at least receive a reason with a decline, or hoping maybe there was a misunderstanding or something you could do to change the answer), if you keep saying no and offer up pointless bean-dip instead of an explanation. Because her only reasonable conclusion is that she isn't a good enough friend to warrant an explanation.

Now, I know that asking for pictures isn't the same as a wedding. But, while I can understand someone wanting to keep some or even all of their pictures to themselves, I think the request for pictures of a shared experience is reasonable enough that a friend is entitled to an explanation. If they balk at the explanation, then is the time to whip out the bean-dip.

GrammarNerd

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Re: Another vacation etiquette question
« Reply #222 on: January 03, 2013, 01:44:24 PM »
I'm actually really quite baffled by the people who say the OP is off to not share her photos because it was a joint vacation.

Since it was a joint vacation and friend *was there*, why didn't he just take the same photo with his iPad, and not have to request the OPs photos? Is it maybe because the OP has taken the time and money to invest in her photography?

Whether or not she's a paid professional makes no difference - this is her artistic creation.  I draw and paint for fun, and have only once or twice been paid for my paintings.  That doesn't mean I should happily scan all of my paintings to give a digital copy to any of my friends who ask. 

I think if it's a friendship worth saving (though if a friendship falls apart because a friend refuses to allow you to keep your creative work, I'd be re-evaluating it), I'd watermark the images and then give them to him. But I don't think the OP is obligated to.

Yes, and let's not dogpile on the OP b/c she didn't say upfront that she wasn't going to share.  Perhaps this scenario never entered her mind.  And let's not forget that the 'friend' didn't make any effort to take his OWN pictures.  For all the OP knew, the friend wasn't interested in pictures b/c he didn't take any of his own.  After a whole vacation of him not taking any pictures, I can totally see why she felt blindsided when he handed her his ipad and "requested" all of her pictures.  My first thought would be "Are you crazy?"  and my second thought would be, "If you wanted pictures, then why in the world didn't you take ANY of your own?"  (Or ASK if you could have mine?).  After I picked my jaw off the floor, then I can imagine that a feeling of being used would begin to set in, since it certainly seemed like the 'friend' had every intention of using me as his personal photographer from the start, without cluing me into that fact.

And on the topic of sharing, it doesn't seem like the friend was trying to share.  He could have taken some with the ipad.  Yes, I know the lens isn't the greatest, but sometimes it's nice to have them on there in that format for emailing or texting purposes.  But he just presumably intended to glom onto her photos (and all of them!) without offering to share any of his own.


TurtleDove

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Re: Another vacation etiquette question
« Reply #223 on: January 03, 2013, 01:57:46 PM »
Yes, and let's not dogpile on the OP b/c she didn't say upfront that she wasn't going to share.  Perhaps this scenario never entered her mind.  And let's not forget that the 'friend' didn't make any effort to take his OWN pictures.  For all the OP knew, the friend wasn't interested in pictures b/c he didn't take any of his own.  After a whole vacation of him not taking any pictures, I can totally see why she felt blindsided when he handed her his ipad and "requested" all of her pictures.  My first thought would be "Are you crazy?"  and my second thought would be, "If you wanted pictures, then why in the world didn't you take ANY of your own?"  (Or ASK if you could have mine?).  After I picked my jaw off the floor, then I can imagine that a feeling of being used would begin to set in, since it certainly seemed like the 'friend' had every intention of using me as his personal photographer from the start, without cluing me into that fact.

And on the topic of sharing, it doesn't seem like the friend was trying to share.  He could have taken some with the ipad.   Yes, I know the lens isn't the greatest, but sometimes it's nice to have them on there in that format for emailing or texting purposes.  But he just presumably intended to glom onto her photos (and all of them!) without offering to share any of his own.

RE the bolded portions: I don't see any dogpiling and the point many of us are making is that the OP had at least two opportunities to explain where she was coming from (a. before the trip or b. when the friend asked for the photos) and she chose to bean dip for some  reason.  I didn't see anyone say her problem was only in failing to explain before the trip.  Also, the OP says the friend had his iphone to take photos.  I didn't see where he deliberately didn't take photos or failed/refused to share.  I don't understand the villianization of the friend.

LeveeWoman

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Re: Another vacation etiquette question
« Reply #224 on: January 03, 2013, 02:52:13 PM »
"I'm sorry, I don't share my pictures. But for you, as a friend, I'll give you the pictures that you are in."


Did the OP ever actually say this?  If she did, I think that's probably sufficient.  From my understanding, she never even clearly said no, she just avoided the question.  Which is definitely rude, in my opinion.  I think refusing to give a direct answer to a reasonable question by someone you consider to be a friend is rude.  Just answer the question politely.

According to her fist post, pickles50 actually gave him the photographs of him.

And, she did give him a direct answer when she "politely declined" to give him all 650 photographs.

Also according to her fist post, she's planning to make him a photo-album.