When parents say no

[m2kbug]

You were fine with what you said and good of you to point out the flaw in Flora's thinking.  Excuse or not, the parents don't want her traveling or taking the children to see the father.  If my parents took my children on a trip or to someone's home or to visit with any one person after I expressly said no, there would be no further unsupervised visits.  I didn't allow unsupervised visits for quite awhile because of trust issues.  It's good you pointed out the problems in her thinking.  This will not end well if Flora takes the kids to see father on the sly.   

[Luci45]

We had a 'do not do this' issue with my inlaws. They did it anyway. I never left my children alone with them again. That was many missed overnights and cookiebaking and birdhouse building times they missed, but I was terrified. (And I had fewer private weekends with my husband, of course.)

Fortunately, the kids had lots of great times with them with me around and never knew that there was a problem, so have really, really fond memories of their paternal grandparents. I'm glad for that, at least.

(Okay. The issue was driving them in the car.)

[delabela]

I love my MIL, and if she pulled something like that, there would be no more unsupervised time.  It sounds like the kids are super young to be going on a visit like that without a parent.

I think all you could do would be to repeat that it's a bad idea if she brings it up again. 

[Queen of Clubs]

I love my MIL, and if she pulled something like that, there would be no more unsupervised time.  It sounds like the kids are super young to be going on a visit like that without a parent.

I think all you could do would be to repeat that it's a bad idea if she brings it up again.

There's no love lost between Flora and her DIL, so I think something like this would cause serious damage to what's left of their relationship.

Thanks, all.  I'll just stand my ground if it comes up again.

[bopper]

I agree with Toots...this excuse sounds flimsy and I wonder what the real issue is.

Clearly they trust her somewhat to watch the kids.  Is it a driving issue?

Would Flora be open to hearing the real issue and dealing with it?  Like if it was her driving, could she have another adult drive? Or does she have car seats? Or could the parents go with her?

[peaches]

Disrespecting the parents is a good way to lose contact with your grandkids.

That’s what I’d tell Flora any time she mentions a plan such as her original one.

OP has already done that, so it should be a closed subject (unless Flora brings it up again). I certainly wouldn't want to intervene with the parents, or try to find out why the parents feel the way they do (actually, their attitude makes a lot of sense to me, even without knowing all of the details).

[Queen of Clubs]

I agree with Toots...this excuse sounds flimsy and I wonder what the real issue is.

Clearly they trust her somewhat to watch the kids.  Is it a driving issue?

Would Flora be open to hearing the real issue and dealing with it?  Like if it was her driving, could she have another adult drive? Or does she have car seats? Or could the parents go with her?

OP here.  I don't know if it's a driving issue.  I know that Flora sometimes has the car seats when she looks after the kids, but she doesn't usually drive them anywhere as their dad drops them off and picks them up, and I suspect it's a hassle to swap the seats in and out of cars.

As for Flora being open to hearing any real issues, no, she wouldn't.  She doesn't take criticism well.  If there is a real issue, I doubt Son would bring it up unnecessarily as he doesn't like to start rows.

Son, DIL, and the kids have gone down to see Flora's father on occasion - with and without Flora.  I think it's just their busy schedules that's the problem with them visiting more (as the trip there/back and the visit take up an entire day, especially when the youngest has such an early bedtime).

On the plus side, Flora was talking the other day about finding time to go visit her dad and didn't make any comment about taking her grandchildren or not being allowed to take them, so I'm hoping she's decided to let the idea drop.

[Minmom3]

Wild speculation - is it possible they have less than wonderful feelings/memories about grandpa/great-grandpa?

My guess, based on being the mother of former toddlers, and the great granddaughter of my Nana who died when I was 5 years old - DIL is afraid that her children won't be properly supervised if Flora takes them up to visit on her own, AND, her children won't get a thing out of a visit to a person that frail and ill, AND it could well be quite an imposition and annoyance to staff and the great grandpa.  Another AND - no telling what condition the children would be after a long day like that either, and it wouldn't be Flora paying the price of that visit, it would be the DIL or her regular day care!  It's a no-win situation, IMO, and for Flora to be pig headed about it and insist on having her way is awful.  If I were her DIL and she did all this to us - it would be a cold day in Hell before she got unsupervised visits again. 

Power plays are ugly enough when nothing bad is actually going to result.  When moderate harm, and potentially quite severe harm could result - it beggars belief that Flora would insist on having her way in this.  Moderate harm would be the children being too tired to behave well for a day or two after.  More harm could be that Flora is too tired to supervise well or drive safely and has an accident.  More harm could be that the children are not supervised and could cause harm with tubes and power cords and fluid lines during the visit.  More harm could be that they're underfoot and trip a nurse or doctor.  All of it is avoidable with proper supervision.

[Specky]

The parents said, "No."  No means no.  Non-negotiable.  That is all Flora/Fiona needs to understand.

[twiggy]

I recently spoke to Flora, and she mentioned that she wanted to take her grandkids up to see her father.  She was hoping to take them the next time she has them for a weekend visit, but Son and DIL said no.  They said the children are too much hard work and Flora wouldn't be able to enjoy her visit with her father.  Flora thinks this is an excuse but that's all they said.

It doesn't seem like an excuse to me, but rather a valid point. OP, you've said that the oldest is 2, right? I have a 4yo, an almost 2yo and a 6mo. I never go places to just visit a specific person with the kids unless I have another adult, or if that person has kids and they can all play together. So I might take the kids to visit my friend and her kids, but I don't make the drive to my Grandma's house unless DH, or my sister or Dad is going as well. Children that age don't have the attention span to sit down for a nice, long chat. If Sis and I head to Grandma's (a 4 hour drive each way) then one of us can supervise the kids, my 3 and her 1, while the other talks with Grandma. The kids get a quick visit, they get to say hi, play, say hi again, and then run off and play some more.

But, even if the parents say no because they don't want their children to be exposed to houses that are painted brown/aliens are known to abduct people from road to Great-Grandpa's house/they're worried Grandma will forget the ferret in the dishwasher when they leave, they are the parents and no means no.

[Daffydilly]

I agree with Toots...this excuse sounds flimsy and I wonder what the real issue is.

Clearly they trust her somewhat to watch the kids.  Is it a driving issue?

Would Flora be open to hearing the real issue and dealing with it?  Like if it was her driving, could she have another adult drive? Or does she have car seats? Or could the parents go with her?

If she's allowed a limited amount of time to babysit and they know she's deliberately breaking their rules already, it may be a situation of trying to build trust. But they want the kids to have a relationship with grandma and are biting the bullet to let her. It's hard to build relationships when there isn't much trust. I hope she's accepting of their decision in the long term.
If Flora brought it up again, I would suggest asking about a family day trip together.

[doodlemor]

Flora sounds like a real piece of work, OP.

It gave me a chill to think that Flora may be planning to take these babies on a trip with out their car seats.  Because of this dangerous possibility, I think that you should let her son and DIL know the plan, if it becomes imminent.  Safety trumps etiquette.

Also, if you know that she is actually on the road with the children without their safety seats I think that you should notify the police.  If she is that foolish she deserves a ticket and whatever else happens to her.

Nothing is as important as the safety and well being of these little ones.

[Luci45]

Flora sounds like a real piece of work, OP.

It gave me a chill to think that Flora may be planning to take these babies on a trip with out their car seats.  Because of this dangerous possibility, I think that you should let her son and DIL know the plan, if it becomes imminent.  Safety trumps etiquette.

Also, if you know that she is actually on the road with the children without their safety seats I think that you should notify the police.  If she is that foolish she deserves a ticket and whatever else happens to her.

Nothing is as important as the safety and well being of these little ones.

Was that the issue? I just mentioned that was the reason I wouldn't leave my kids with their grandparents. I didn't see that as the friend's problem with Flora, necessarily.

[doodlemor]

Flora sounds like a real piece of work, OP.

It gave me a chill to think that Flora may be planning to take these babies on a trip with out their car seats.  Because of this dangerous possibility, I think that you should let her son and DIL know the plan, if it becomes imminent.  Safety trumps etiquette.

Also, if you know that she is actually on the road with the children without their safety seats I think that you should notify the police.  If she is that foolish she deserves a ticket and whatever else happens to her.

Nothing is as important as the safety and well being of these little ones.

Was that the issue? I just mentioned that was the reason I wouldn't leave my kids with their grandparents. I didn't see that as the friend's problem with Flora, necessarily.

I'm not sure if this is a direct issue or not.  This is what OP said.......

I know that Flora sometimes has the car seats when she looks after the kids, but she doesn't usually drive them anywhere as their dad drops them off and picks them up, and I suspect it's a hassle to swap the seats in and out of cars.

I feel that if there is any possibility that the babies would be driven without the safety seats their parents or the police should be notified.  I'm old enough to have seen the difference these seats have made for children's safety.

[Queen of Clubs]

Flora sounds like a real piece of work, OP.

It gave me a chill to think that Flora may be planning to take these babies on a trip with out their car seats.  Because of this dangerous possibility, I think that you should let her son and DIL know the plan, if it becomes imminent.  Safety trumps etiquette.

Also, if you know that she is actually on the road with the children without their safety seats I think that you should notify the police.  If she is that foolish she deserves a ticket and whatever else happens to her.

Nothing is as important as the safety and well being of these little ones.

Sorry, Doodlemor, you've misunderstood - Flora would *never* drive the kids without their car seats.  Normally, she doesn't have the car seats, so if she takes the kids out, they're in their stroller and she walks or gets the bus to wherever she's going.  Going to her dad's wouldn't be done by public transport as it's a long enough journey as it is.

Minmom, Flora's dad isn't in a care facility, but I think the kids would be extremely tired after such a long journey.  I know Flora complains about how tired she is after the trip, which might be part of what concerns Son and DIL.