How to tell a big brother I've grown up?

[magician5]

I know you love to debate, but the problem you present is one that can best be solved by not debating with your brother. This sort of debate is notoriously impossible to "win" with anybody ... it would be easier on everyone, and kinder to your brother, if you restricted the debates to the virtues of your local football team.

[poundcake]

I know you love to debate, but the problem you present is one that can best be solved by not debating with your brother. This sort of debate is notoriously impossible to "win" with anybody ... it would be easier on everyone, and kinder to your brother, if you restricted the debates to the virtues of your local football team.

This is exactly it. You can't "make" brother see you've grown up through discussion or debate any more than he can "make" you accept his religious beliefs the same way.

[Sophia]

Did anyone else notice the irony in Brother's stance.

1)  You stand up for what you think and do not conform with my thoughts.  Bad!

2)  You do not stand up for what you think and conform to Dad.  Bad! 

[Kendo_Bunny]

I know you love to debate, but the problem you present is one that can best be solved by not debating with your brother. This sort of debate is notoriously impossible to "win" with anybody ... it would be easier on everyone, and kinder to your brother, if you restricted the debates to the virtues of your local football team.

I guess I'll just have to start nodding and tuning out when he starts up theologically, because I've explained my position very clearly. I know his theology teaches that he's saving me from horrible things, but I disagree with him, with examples from the same text. I've tried pointing out exactly where I see my view supported, but he tells me I'm reading it wrong, because it supports his view. So I know it's running in circles, but eventually he gave up with Dad, so I'm hoping he'll get to the point where he gives up with me.

I think it's bad that I have Dad's theological opinions because Dad isn't one of the correct thinking, where if I had my brother's thinking, it would be correct.

[Ladybugs]

Kendo bunny,
Hi I'm new here as of last night....I skimmed over your post here , I didn't read all of it but it sounds somewhat similar to my situation with my sister who is very intelligent and kind of acts similar..I have a health condition diagnosed a few yrs ago which my family was supportive of. Then last year sometime she got this idea, probably after reading something on the Internet, anyways she got tis idea that I was mis diagnosed and told our mom about her ideas. Since our mom sees her as almost infallible, she quickly adopted my sisters belief as her own. Although several medical professionals diagnosed me with this , sis says she knows better and has pulled mom along in her beliefs. Any attempt in the past I made to say sorry, but my docs said this....she replies with well, they don't know everything. I'm your sister, I know you

I don't know it just seems to be kind of similar

I just wanted to say I know somewhat how your feeling and how it feels to be gas lighted this way (if that's what gas lighting is, someone else mentioned it in my post, kind of being discredited by someone else who insists they know better

[VorFemme]

Kendo bunny,
Hi I'm new here as of last night....I skimmed over your post here , I didn't read all of it but it sounds somewhat similar to my situation with my sister who is very intelligent and kind of acts similar..I have a health condition diagnosed a few yrs ago which my family was supportive of. Then last year sometime she got this idea, probably after reading something on the Internet, anyways she got tis idea that I was mis diagnosed and told our mom about her ideas. Since our mom sees her as almost infallible, she quickly adopted my sisters belief as her own. Although several medical professionals diagnosed me with this , sis says she knows better and has pulled mom along in her beliefs. Any attempt in the past I made to say sorry, but my docs said this....she replies with well, they don't know everything. I'm your sister, I know you

I don't know it just seems to be kind of similar

I just wanted to say I know somewhat how your feeling and how it feels to be gas lighted this way (if that's what gas lighting is, someone else mentioned it in my post, kind of being discredited by someone else who insists they know better

Gas lighting is from an old movie - someone who is gas lighting you is trying to make you think that YOU are crazy (insane) and their intentions are NOT the best, either.  (Haven't seen the movie and it's been a while since I looked up the synopsis.) 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0036855/faq#.2.1.5  - link to a synopsis

So - even if the big brother or lawyer sister aren't trying to "gas light" you - they are certainly trying to undermine your peace of mind and make you follow their vision of what your life should be.

Which is not very nice of them...even if they have the best intentions in the world.  Perhaps both of you need to order the industrial sized tubs of bean dip.  And leave quickly to talk to someone else if they refuse to allow the conversation to be redirected.

[sevenday]

There is really no room for debate, in my opinion, when it comes to this situation.   He firmly believes you are misguided and must be brought back 'to the light,' and will keep doing so until he is discouraged in some way.  Your Dad got through by not being worn down, so you will need to do the same.  You might say to him, "I realize this is an important subject for you, but I am not interested in discussing it.  I have thought carefully and independently about what beliefs suit me, and do not appreciate your insistence that I'm 'brainwashed' or just 'parroting' Dad's beliefs.  It's frankly offensive, and I'm not going to listen to it anymore.  Please do not try to talk to me about this again."  And then tune him out.  Leave the room/house, turn your back, begin talking to others, continue reading and ignore him, etc when he starts in on the topic.  He will likely complain that you are being rude, at which point you can point out that he is also being rude by continuing to bring up subjects that you have told him point blank not to discuss with you.

The upside of this treatment is that you can do this in a public location as well as at home.  If he's in your home when he starts, I would not think twice of attempting beandip/ignoring, and if he gets mad, politely escorting him to the door and sending him home.  It's not embarrassing to me because I'm not the one with the problem, it's the other person.   Just keep it up even though you are ready to strangle him because he's so inconsiderate of your choices.  Eventually he will realize that it really IS that big of an issue for you and will make a choice accordingly.

[Twik]

"Sorry, not interested in discussing this," sounds like the best option when he starts nagging you.

[TootsNYC]

I know you love to debate, but the problem you present is one that can best be solved by not debating with your brother. This sort of debate is notoriously impossible to "win" with anybody ... it would be easier on everyone, and kinder to your brother, if you restricted the debates to the virtues of your local football team.

I guess I'll just have to start nodding and tuning out when he starts up theologically, because I've explained my position very clearly. I know his theology teaches that he's saving me from horrible things, but I disagree with him, with examples from the same text. I've tried pointing out exactly where I see my view supported, but he tells me I'm reading it wrong, because it supports his view. So I know it's running in circles, but eventually he gave up with Dad, so I'm hoping he'll get to the point where he gives up with me.

I think you need to give up before your brother does. DON'T try to get him to agree with you.  When he starts, say, "Bro, I don't want to debate this with you. Let's not spend our visit on this. Are you guys going to take a vacation anytime soon?"

[White Lotus]

"Bro, I love you, and you were the best big brother I could have had when I was 8 and miserable, but I am all grown up now and thinking for myself.  Tell me about (some work or hobby subject that fascinates him, as in...) the snow pack on the backside of Ski Area.  Is Chair X open yet?"  Repeat until he gets the drift.

And maybe let him know that when he does X, Y or Z he does it just like Dad, not because it is just like Dad, but because it's a good way to do it.

[Dragons 8 Cactus]

I had a brain fart sorry.

When you were 8 and hurting you WERE with the church.

He wants you back at church.

I don't like your Bro. Something is really OFF about him.

[atirial]

I was thinking something similar to Dragons 8 Cactus, but I don't think he's doing it maliciously, just that he hasn't put the pieces together yet himself. Telling him that you're disturbed he likes the way you behaved at the most miserable time of your life, and thinks this is the real you, might make him see the problem.

To be honest though, I doubt anything you say will make an impression if he thinks he's doing it for your own good (particularly if it is a religious charge).

[Kendo_Bunny]

I had a brain fart sorry.

When you were 8 and hurting you WERE with the church.

He wants you back at church.

I don't like your Bro. Something is really OFF about him.

I was never with that church. I was always with my church - he converted to his church in college, and his church teaches that they are the only ones with the correct doctrine. It's one of the things I dislike about it, besides other theological points that I won't get into here. I've only tried talking to him on doctrinal points to show where I have reached different conclusions, not to try to convince him that my theological decisions are better, but how someone can know the same text and read something different.

His doctrine does sweep mental illness under the rug - he does not like talking about the fact that our sister is not well, and that she was a nightmare to live with before she began getting the help she needed. He doesn't think it should be brought up, and he doesn't really know the full extent of what she used to do, because he was not living there. He'd see some after-effects, and he knew she would bully me some, but he didn't really put it together until I came right out and called it abuse. He even asked if that was too strong a term until I began enumerating some of the things that would happen when he wasn't around.

So I am not going to operate on the level that he is malicious, or that he thinks I'm the crazy one, or even that he thinks I'm not intelligent. He's coming from a place of love, but it's misguided. He is concerned with saving my soul, and is not really content that it's already saved. He does not realize that me being somewhat "masculine" and outspoken instead of shy and retiring is how I want to be, and how I am when the threat of being beaten for it is removed. He does not realize that I can be like Dad without trying to be Dad, because I disagree with Dad to his face when I feel a need to, and Dad appreciates that he has raised an independent-minded woman. In general, he just hasn't realized that I'm 26, not 8, and the time for preaching and guidance that I have not asked for is over, especially if I am not making bad choices (or if the only "bad choice" I am making is which church I am attending).

[Dragons 8 Cactus]

Aha Moment. If this is the 'Church' I think it is, Only thing you can do is refuse to debate/ play/talk about....... at all.

I don't think he is malicious either. But something in his phy is screwed up.

You will never win this Debate, Don't play