Author Topic: I have not the words...UPDATE: Post #132  (Read 14482 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Twik

  • A Pillar of the Forum
  • *****
  • Posts: 28391
Re: I have not the words...
« Reply #120 on: January 04, 2013, 11:04:12 AM »
Basically, this has little to do with whether a snowflake is a religious image, and much to do with basic etiquette.

One is unlikely to go through life, in any belief system (religious, political, philosophical or moral), without being offered, in good will, a present that will conflict with it. The polite thing to do is to give thanks, and then dispose of the gift in a way that meets your own beliefs, and does not get back to the giver. Chastizing the giver for not recognizing your own stance (particularly when the giver was a 6 year old child), is well beyond the pale of polite behaviour.

If the family disapproves of snowflakes, they could have thrown it away. The literally holier-than-thou letter was unnecessary, and, I think, had less to do with any real pain on their behalf, and more about proclaiming just how noble they were in their own beliefs.
My cousin's memoir of love and loneliness while raising a child with multiple disabilities will be out on Amazon soon! Know the Night, by Maria Mutch, has been called "full of hope, light, and companionship for surviving the small hours of the night."

Garden Goblin

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 942
Re: I have not the words...
« Reply #121 on: January 04, 2013, 11:08:38 AM »
Schools are part of the larger society and our society celebrates x-mas. 

Just because the majority follows a particular religion does not mean they get to push that religion onto others, nor does it mean it is appropriate or acceptable for those in positions of secular authority endorse that religion over others.

As I already stated, as long as the celebration is wholly secular and any education on the subject of holidays is done neutrally, I have no problems.  I did, however, object to a post which stated that if I was a politically correct wowser who objected to Christmas celebrations I should keep my kid out of public school and I probably just needed more goodwill in my life.

The schools should not be celebrating Christmas.  No, not even with alternative spellings.  Celebrating the winter holidays and learning about various holiday traditions is however, a wholly different scenario, and perfectly acceptable.

artk2002

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 12838
    • The Delian's Commonwealth
Re: I have not the words...
« Reply #122 on: January 04, 2013, 11:32:47 AM »
Schools are part of the larger society and our society celebrates x-mas. 

Just because the majority follows a particular religion does not mean they get to push that religion onto others, nor does it mean it is appropriate or acceptable for those in positions of secular authority endorse that religion over others.

As I already stated, as long as the celebration is wholly secular and any education on the subject of holidays is done neutrally, I have no problems.  I did, however, object to a post which stated that if I was a politically correct wowser who objected to Christmas celebrations I should keep my kid out of public school and I probably just needed more goodwill in my life.

The schools should not be celebrating Christmas.  No, not even with alternative spellings.  Celebrating the winter holidays and learning about various holiday traditions is however, a wholly different scenario, and perfectly acceptable.

Your missing part of the point here. WillyNilly's using "X-mas" in a very specific way, as she explained up-thread. She's that term to mean the secular celebration, not the religious one. As others have pointed out, they celebrate many traditions that are associated with "Christmas" without being Christian themselves. Just because someone has a celebration in late December, it doesn't mean that they're celebrating the Christian Christmas. I think it's very appropriate that schools do both multi-cultural and secular celebrations at this time. In fact, I view the multi-cultural aspect of this (i.e. Christmas, Hannukah, Kwanza, Diwali, Yule, etc.) to be part of the school's job of educating students.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bow lines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover. -Mark Twain

Moray

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1869
  • My hovercraft is full of eels!
Re: I have not the words...
« Reply #123 on: January 04, 2013, 11:45:06 AM »
I'm not sure what you mean by that. I don't believe WillyNilly accused you of any such thing. All she said is that a pre-Winter Break party involving Santa or candycanes or snowflakes isn't anything but secular for a lot of people.

That's what the original post I was responding too called me, which was one of the reasons I objected to what it stated.  I don't like being called names, told I need more goodwill, or that I should take my child out of school if I do not wish to celebrate Christmas.

Ah, that must be where my confusion came in. You're upset by Rusty's phrasing, but you quoted a post from WillyNilly, so I assumed you were responding to her specifically.
Utah

Mikayla

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4049
Re: I have not the words...
« Reply #124 on: January 04, 2013, 11:54:15 AM »
I agree with Twik.  Even if a case can be made that the snowflake had valid reason to be offended by the snowflake (it's obvious where I fall on that issue!) there are no circumstances under which it is ok to send a note like that.


Venus193

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 15862
  • Backstage passes are wonderful things!
Re: I have not the words...
« Reply #125 on: January 04, 2013, 11:55:40 AM »
I agree with Twik.  Even if a case can be made that the snowflake had valid reason to be offended by the snowflake (it's obvious where I fall on that issue!) there are no circumstances under which it is ok to send a note like that.



I think we can all agree on this much.  What -- if anything -- should the OP do now?

mrkitty

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 766
Re: I have not the words...
« Reply #126 on: January 04, 2013, 12:19:26 PM »
I agree with Twik.  Even if a case can be made that the snowflake had valid reason to be offended by the snowflake (it's obvious where I fall on that issue!) there are no circumstances under which it is ok to send a note like that.



I think we can all agree on this much.  What -- if anything -- should the OP do now?


While I think in general complete silence is the way to go, I have to make an exception. I think in this particular case, the note by Toots upthread is the perfect response.
Learn from past. Live in the present. Hope for the future.

snowdragon

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2200
Re: I have not the words...
« Reply #127 on: January 04, 2013, 12:21:14 PM »
Nothing, She and her child should go on as before, and ignore the note. If they choose to do anything for any other holiday for the class - just omit this child from the list. Just like any other moral code ( drinking, dress, food, ect, ect, ect) those who don't hold that belief are not bound by it. If the other child's parents feel offended by this - well they don't get to control the rest of the world by way of their morals.

Sharnita

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 21390
Re: I have not the words...
« Reply #128 on: January 04, 2013, 12:22:19 PM »
I might let the teacher know in case there is generally a policy that everybodymust get a Valentine or something like that.

Mikayla

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4049
Re: I have not the words...
« Reply #129 on: January 04, 2013, 12:28:23 PM »
I agree with Twik.  Even if a case can be made that the snowflake had valid reason to be offended by the snowflake (it's obvious where I fall on that issue!) there are no circumstances under which it is ok to send a note like that.


I think we can all agree on this much.  What -- if anything -- should the OP do now?

I don't understand your point, Venus.  Having read through the entire thread just now, I saw maybe one mention of the note being rude before Twik mentioned it.  You may care to assume "we all agree on this much", but I wouldn't make that assumption, since there isn't even agreement on whether or not the snowflake mom had a right to be offended to begin with.

As to what to do, I liked the wording upthread that incorporated a request for the snowflake to be returned. 





Piratelvr1121

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 10959
Re: I have not the words...
« Reply #130 on: January 04, 2013, 12:34:23 PM »
My response is a combo of Snowdragon's and Sharnita's, just not include that child and let the teacher know (who knows, maybe the teacher got something similar) about the letter so she'll be aware in the future when holidays come up.  From elementary school, and having a 4th grader now, the feeling is usually that if you bring something for one child, there needs to be enough for everyone in the class. 

That way arrangements can be made or the teacher can talk with the parents about perhaps moving their daughter to another activity during the holiday party so she won't be forced to go against the religion.
Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars.  You have a right to be here. Be cheerful, strive to be happy. -Desiderata

Twik

  • A Pillar of the Forum
  • *****
  • Posts: 28391
Re: I have not the words...
« Reply #131 on: January 04, 2013, 12:39:31 PM »
As to what to do, there is no need to respond to the letter (and I can't really think of a response that would be appropriate). For future occasions, I would simply omit the child from any group gifting. I hope, for her sake, that this is a one-off, and that she will not end up being ostracized because none of her playmate's gifts meet her parents' standards.
My cousin's memoir of love and loneliness while raising a child with multiple disabilities will be out on Amazon soon! Know the Night, by Maria Mutch, has been called "full of hope, light, and companionship for surviving the small hours of the night."

VltGrantham

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 488
Re: I have not the words...
« Reply #132 on: January 04, 2013, 12:50:07 PM »
Please bear with me everyone.  I've tried to read all the responses and want to answer questions, but also wanted to give you all a heads-up on the current situation.

The note was addressed to "The parents of DD LastName", not DD herself.  We have not told her the specifics of the note, but we did tell her last night that classmate's parents didn't want anything like that in future.  She told us that her classmate had mentioned that the parents had taken the snowflake and thrown it away--so she already knew something had happened to it.

Ironically, her friend did say "Thanks for getting me one though.  I wish my parents hadn't thrown it away.  It was pretty."

Also, I don't know what religion the parents are.

I volunteer in DD's classroom several times per week and went there this morning.  The teacher immediately pulled me aside and apologized because she had a feeling the letter had been rather nasty.  She got one, the school did too, and the principal was pulled into it.  The Mom called and spoke with the principal at length on Wednesday and was basically told that they were sorry their family had been offended, but they would appreciate advance notice in future of any restrictions involving their children.  The family had plenty of opportunity when requests for contributions to the holiday bags were solicited and when items for the class winter party were also solicited.  The principal said that in future, the child would have the opportunity to work with the math or reading resource teachers during the time that the class had its celebrations and that they would hand out (and put away) any gifts at that time so as to minimize the impact on this one child.

It turns out that DH and I have run into this family before--and the interaction wasn't good then either.  It was during a time when DD attended preschool at our local church.  We had a program with all of the preschoolers celebrating and the parents, who were strict vegans, were angry that most of the dishes weren't.  Their children were consuming them with gusto and that forced them to have to take the foods away.  This child wasn't in DD's class and I didn't know the family's name until later.  It was a common last name in our area and I really didn't think to put two and two together when I heard it in DD's class.

As for upcoming Valentine's Day--we're going to make the crafts I proposed, except that we will not be making one for this child.  I do not intend to respond to the note, as I think anything I write will only make the situation worse or provoke another letter from them and I don't wish to get any more involved with them than we already are.  Though I must admit, I did like the letter that suggested we ask for the snowflake back! 

JenJay

  • I'm a nonconformist who doesn't conform to the prevailing standards of nonconformity.
  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 5952
Re: I have not the words...UPDATE: Post #132
« Reply #133 on: January 04, 2013, 12:57:07 PM »
So their life plan is to go through it with strict rules, tell no-one, and become enraged when those rules aren't followed? That sounds like a good way to ensure you are perpetually unhappy.  :-\

The little girl sounds sweet, and I'm glad your DD didn't end up with hurt feelings!

Piratelvr1121

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 10959
Re: I have not the words...UPDATE: Post #132
« Reply #134 on: January 04, 2013, 12:59:06 PM »
To quote George Takei, oh myyy!!!

Who wants to hedge bets that they told no one at the church that they were vegan until that day?

I feel sorry for their daughter and their other kids, but at least they are learning manners from somewhere if their daughter thanked your DD for the snowflake even if it was thrown away.
Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars.  You have a right to be here. Be cheerful, strive to be happy. -Desiderata