DD wants to cut the playdate short - how do I explain?

[LadyL]

Maybe my perspective is off here as a non-parent but I am not sure what is so offensive about saying something like "Oh, it looks like your boys are playing a bit rough, DD isn't quite used to that." I guess parents can get defensive about their kids possibly being criticized, but if you don't want to have play dates again in the future, does it matter?

My nephew is starting to have behavioral issues with stuff like shoving other kids (he's 3). Seeing him interact with groups of kids and how he is always one of the roughest kids in the bunch, and makes other kids upset, has helped his parents realize that his issues may go beyond normal development. They are aware he has issues and would be disappointed but not surprised if it were the reason to call a playdate short.

[Amara]

OP, I am not a parent and so won't offer advice on your situation (not that I have any), but I wonder if you really want Babybartfast to begin to learn from her children that shoving is a "normal" part of playing. Do you want her to begin to assimilate that?

[LeveeWoman]

Shoving is not unheard of in toddlers but it's not acceptable.

[NyaChan]

I'm assuming that as Slarti was there, she was able to see the nature of the physical interaction - if she isn't worried that Babybartfast is in danger, I think this isn't a safety issue so much other than the possibility of an unexpected accident.  Still, I think OP would be well served to teach Babybartfast how to stand her ground with regards to her physical integrity - or in other words, to make sure when she says that they can't touch/push her, that she knows she is allowed to do it and that her mom will back her up and help if needed.

[Slartibartfast]

Yeah, I don't want to teach Babybartfast that shoving is good but a) she's four, and b) she's normally pretty quiet and introverted so I don't think there's much danger in her pick up this particular bad habit    I'm also not used to seeing little boys play, since almost all my friends have girls and the one boy Babybartfast plays with has severe autism so his play patterns are a bit different.  Andrea's son seemed to be on the extreme end of "boy" playing - not saying that boys should be allowed to be rougher, but many young boys do seem to be a lot more physical.  The shoving I saw (from both Andrea's kids) was the "you're in my way" kind rather than trying to hurt the other child or trying to retaliate for some previous action.

I do know that Babybartfast was learning some lessons, too - she told me on the way home that "he was pushing me so I pushed him back and then he pushed me again!"  She was really bewildered at why returning the shove didn't stop anything.  Hopefully this (and her time at preschool) will teach her more about how escalating the violence rarely stops it.  She is in a very good preschool with at least one "problem" kid, so I know she does shove and push and whatnot as part of being a four-year-old in a room full of other four-year-olds, but she doesn't usually resort to it unless other avenues of toddler frustration (whining, fussing, going to an adult, etc.) don't work.

[SPuck]

She is in a very good preschool with at least one "problem" kid, so I know she does shove and push and whatnot as part of being a four-year-old in a room full of other four-year-olds, but she doesn't usually resort to it unless other avenues of toddler frustration (whining, fussing, going to an adult, etc.) don't work.

I think your sending your daughter mixed signals. She came to you saying that she wanted to leave, but you still threw her to the wolves. In most cases I draw the tolerance line at physical contact and certain noise levels. At that point it doesn't matter what your friend thinks, just to get out of the situation as politely through quickly as possible.

I wouldn't mention anything now because the time has passed, but if you keep declining play dates and your friend asks why, you might want to try being honest.

[Onyx_TKD]

Yeah, I don't want to teach Babybartfast that shoving is good but a) she's four, and b) she's normally pretty quiet and introverted so I don't think there's much danger in her pick up this particular bad habit    I'm also not used to seeing little boys play, since almost all my friends have girls and the one boy Babybartfast plays with has severe autism so his play patterns are a bit different.  Andrea's son seemed to be on the extreme end of "boy" playing - not saying that boys should be allowed to be rougher, but many young boys do seem to be a lot more physical.  The shoving I saw (from both Andrea's kids) was the "you're in my way" kind rather than trying to hurt the other child or trying to retaliate for some previous action.

I do know that Babybartfast was learning some lessons, too - she told me on the way home that "he was pushing me so I pushed him back and then he pushed me again!"  She was really bewildered at why returning the shove didn't stop anything.  Hopefully this (and her time at preschool) will teach her more about how escalating the violence rarely stops it.  She is in a very good preschool with at least one "problem" kid, so I know she does shove and push and whatnot as part of being a four-year-old in a room full of other four-year-olds, but she doesn't usually resort to it unless other avenues of toddler frustration (whining, fussing, going to an adult, etc.) don't work.

It sounds like Babybartfast already knows how to properly deal with issues without resorting to violence, and from your OP, it sounds like she tried all of her methods, including escalating up to shoving, and none of them worked. The adults told the children to stop pushing, and they didn't stop. She tried pushing back, and they kept shoving. She told her mother that she didn't want to play with them, even offering a polite excuse for why she "needed" to go home, and was instead sent back to play with them. If she has to play with them in the future, I don't think "escalating violence rarely stops it" is the lesson that is going to be reinforced here. If this teaches her that escalating violence doesn't help, it also teaches her that asking adults for help and making polite excuses to get out of a situation don't help either! And once she exhausts all of the acceptable ways of trying to keep from being pushed around, what does she have left to try? She could try escalating the violence further (e.g. instead of just standing her ground and pushing back, she could escalate to hitting/kicking/etc.--anything that would make the other kids want to keep their distance), or she could conclude that she's supposed to just shut up and endure being pushed around until the adults decide it's gone on long enough. I don't think either of those lessons is a good one.

I think Babybartfast did an excellent job of trying to remove herself from the situation, and I would suggest reinforcing that. Tell her what she needs to say if she really needs help getting away from another child, and let her know that you will back her up on it. If you don't want to leave right away, because the visit is intended to let the adults socialize or any other reason, then maybe she could have an option of either playing with the other children or playing quietly next to you with a particular toy brought for that purpose (something normally less desirable than playing with nice children, but something she can amuse herself with until it's time to go and not a punishment).

[NyaChan]

Onx, those are really interesting points.  What IS the appropriate way to stop the shoving behavior if everything Babybartfast already tried didn't work?

[MrTango]

I don't know that it's necessary to have an excuse.  Just let your host know that Babybartfast is ready to be done.

[Queen of Clubs]

Onx, those are really interesting points.  What IS the appropriate way to stop the shoving behavior if everything Babybartfast already tried didn't work?

I agree with everything Onyx said.  As for how to stop the shoving behaviour, it was her mother's responsibility to protect her from being shoved.  Even when asked by Babybartfast, no protection was provided.  Slarti, I think you should have taken your DD home instead of sending her back in to fend for herself.

As for explaining it, why bother?  It doesn't sound as if the mother is interested.  I suggest you avoid playdates with those children until you know they'll behave, instead of letting it go and teaching your daughter it's okay for her to be ill-treated by playmates.

[Slartibartfast]

The time between her asking me to leave and the time we were out the door was, at most, 15 minutes.  The shoving stopped when she came to me because we sent the kids outside for a few minutes while I looked for an excuse, then I seized on Bittybartfast starting to fuss.  At most Babybartfast had an extra five minutes with these kids, because it would have taken a while to get coats on, etc. to leave anyway.  (By sending the kids outside, she already had her coat and her shoes and we could just leave.)

[MommyPenguin]

I've got kids in that age range, and I'd be perfectly comfortable with saying, "Sorry, I guess Babybartfast isn't quite used to all the roughhousing."  If it seemed possible, I'd say, "What about we send them outside?" or "Do you any quiet games they could play?"  If that didn't seem likely, I'd just continue with, "I think we're gonna have to call it a day.  Sorry we couldn't stay longer this time!"  No promise of a next time, but also leaves room to consider things before making a firm decision about staying or leaving.

I do think you might need to be concerned about the shoving, though.  At least in my experience, kids who are a bit more shy and introverted are *more* likely to resort to mild violence.  They don't know the words or are too shy to try to use words to deal with an argument or another kid bothering them, and seeing it work for another child might make them think that's an acceptable way to deal with issues, even when they seem too mature for such things.  So I'd hesitate to schedule any other playdates with this family.

[Tierrainney]

Please, for your children's sake, no more play dates with this family at all.

Growing up there was one family that I dreaded. The wife and my Mother were friends before they married and had children and remained friends. Fortunately, we didn't live close, because the oldest child in this family was a mean bully. They would come visit us and he would push and shove, break toys, etc, and we were supposed to entertain him because he was a guest.

When we'd visit their home, he wouldn't let us touch any of his toys, he would still push and shove, and we'd be bored stiff. But it was "fine" because he was just being a boy and "boys will be boys"

My sister and I were quiet, well-behaved (mostly  ) children, so we put up with it for a long time. When my younger brother was old enough to protest, my Mother finally realized that this wasn't a good experience for us. So she started socializing with them as only adult get togethers.

I still have bad memories of being around this child. So, until you have seen any signs that the Parents of these children have started enforcing manners and good behaviors, please don't expose your children.


(as an aside, the bully child is now in prison)

[rashea]

I don't think you have to avoid ever having playdates again, but I would talk about it before you schedule the next one. I think you need to let the other mom know that your child isn't as used to rough housing. Then plan an activity so that the kids aren't left to come up with something on their own. A craft, or a building project would likely have given them something to do that didn't involve running wild.

And eventually they'll hopefully settle down and it will all work out.

[Eeep!]

I think you might be cutting the other boy more slack than you should due to your inexperience with boys.  I have a 3 year old son (Almost 3 1/2 - yikes!) and he definitely does play different than girls.  However, he still knows that shoving is wrong.  Wrestling, running around like a crazy, bashing toy cars into each other/another kid's toy car/the wall, (Note: wall bashing is not OK either. heh.), making silly noises? All normal. (Not saying that girls don't do those things too, they just tend to seem more like examples of "rough boy play".)  However, he knows that hitting or shoving another kid because he wants something is not cool.   I am not saying he never does it, but he knows he's not supposed to.  As such, if another child didn't want to play with him because he was doing that, I would totally understand. (Not to mention, he would be getting into trouble.)

I just thought I would put that out there as I understand that you want your daughter to learn to deal with all kinds of different playing styles.  But, to me at least, that is different than having to deal with misbehavior.  If that makes sens...