Author Topic: Know When to Hold 'Em and Fold 'Em - Gambling Etiquette  (Read 3020 times)

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YellowSub

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Know When to Hold 'Em and Fold 'Em - Gambling Etiquette
« on: January 06, 2013, 10:59:30 PM »
Went gambling a few weekends back and after repeatedly losing on the slot machines (I must have been playing "Wheel of No Fortune") I decided to try my luck at the black jack table. I have played the game before with friends but never at the casino.

A few times I made legit bets but the person next to me became upset and criticized my play, saying I took his card, the dealers bust card, etc. etc. He did seem intoxicated but it was very annoying and the dealer didn't do anything about it. I wasn't sure what to say so I just cashed out and switched tables.

This also happened a few times while playing poker. I understand that ribbing is a part of the game but I found it very annoying that one gentleman kept criticizing how I played my hand even when I won the pot. I didn't want to be rude and tell him to "shut up" but it really made playing less enjoyable.

Any card sharks or card guppies have experience dealing with this?

YellowSub

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Re: Know When to Hold 'Em and Fold 'Em - Gambling Etiquette
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2013, 11:01:32 PM »
Sorry just realized I posted this in the wrong folder. Mods have been notified.

MrTango

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Re: Know When to Hold 'Em and Fold 'Em - Gambling Etiquette
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2013, 11:21:38 PM »
Honestly, if you're playing in the manner you believe to be in your best interests, you're fine.

If I were at a Blackjack table with someone who made what I thought was a bad decision, I might speak up and ask "Are you sure you want to do that?"  Unless they responded in a way that seemed receptive to advice, I wouldn't say anything further.

The guy was being rude, and I think you were fine.  If he's that concerned with people playing by a certain strategy, he should be hitting the higher-stakes tables anyway.

GSNW

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Re: Know When to Hold 'Em and Fold 'Em - Gambling Etiquette
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2013, 12:07:44 AM »
I worked in the casino industry for four years.  While it is strongly advisable to play by basic strategy at the 21 tables, it's rude to be obnoxious to a player that chooses not to do so.  You play your hand how you want.  The dealer or floor manager should have said something.

It can and does affect the other players if you choose to ignore basic strategy, but as another poster noted, high limit tables rarely suffer this issue.  I have left tables before when I didn't care for someone's choices.  This bozo had the option of doing the same.

Magnet

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Re: Know When to Hold 'Em and Fold 'Em - Gambling Etiquette
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2013, 09:12:08 AM »
If you choose to ignore basic strategy, the other players at the table are free to move to another table.  If they do move, and leave you and the dealer, I think it is bad etiquette on your part to move to another table with more players.  You will, in effect, be forcing those players to move again.  Many casinos have a beginners table that explain odds and perhaps you should be playing there.

hjaye

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Re: Know When to Hold 'Em and Fold 'Em - Gambling Etiquette
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2013, 12:43:45 PM »
You'll see that a lot at a blackjack table, the best thing to do is move.  I've seen people do some really stupid things (split fives instead of doubling down, splitting kings instead of standing pat) and win.

When you go against the basic rules of play (always split 8's for example) then another player will feel you've taken a card that should have been his, or you've taken a card that would have busted out the dealer.  Sometimes it can be very frustrating if someone who plays a lot, sees someone who doesn't play that often and make plays that go against the basic rules win, while they keep losing.  You're always going to find someone who has something to gripe about, especially when they're losing.  If you can't ignore them, then I would suggest you just go to another table, there is nothing you can say that will quiet them down, although chances are you'll run into the same issue at another table as well.

As far as poker playing goes, I don't think I've ever played in a game where every person at the table considered themself an expert and everyone else is stupid.  You usually can tell the more experienced players from a novice, an experienced player may offer a comment as to how to better play your hand, even winning a pot, it's possible you could have made more money.  it really depends on how friendly the game is.  Then there are the people that just like to hear themselves talk.  I've seen people call out other players for making a bet that they think is stupid, yet four or five hands later, I'll see them do the exact same thing.  You just have to learn to tune people like that out.

msulinski

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Re: Know When to Hold 'Em and Fold 'Em - Gambling Etiquette
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2013, 02:39:07 PM »
This whole taking someone else's card thing strikes me as being ridiculous. You could just as easily help the other players out instead of hurting them. I don't suppose anyone complains when that happens.

Does anyone have any methematical evidence that a player who doesn't follow the basic strategy is actually hurting the other players' chances?

WillyNilly

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Re: Know When to Hold 'Em and Fold 'Em - Gambling Etiquette
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2013, 03:06:29 PM »
I have never understood the whole "basic strategy" of blackjack as I have never see anyone win at it.  Instead I tend to play by the same standards posed on the table that dealers play ply (must hit on 16, must stay on 17) and I tend to win quite often (which makes sense, since the casino is always going to set the rules for dealers to be in the best interest of winning).  I have had people make nasty comments like you got about me stealing a card or whatever, but I don't heed them.  I don't play at high limit tables (usually $5 or $10) and I figure if they are so great A) why is their chip pile so small and B) why aren't playing at higher limit tables?  Then I smile at myself "oh yeah, because really they aren't so great."

I also find if you calmly and politely yet firmly turn to them and say "please stop making nasty comments on how I play" they either stop or the dealer will at that point step in and also tell them to cut it out.

Do make sure you always tip your dealer, and your waitress, when you are winning though, as that is basic casino etiquette and it ensues the dealer has a vested interest in having you stay at his table.  And if you are tipping your dealer and there is friendly banter going on, and the dealer ever comments "really?  hit?" or "are you sure you want to stay?" take the hint from them and do as they recommend. 

msulinski

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Re: Know When to Hold 'Em and Fold 'Em - Gambling Etiquette
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2013, 03:25:48 PM »
I have never understood the whole "basic strategy" of blackjack as I have never see anyone win at it.  Instead I tend to play by the same standards posed on the table that dealers play ply (must hit on 16, must stay on 17) and I tend to win quite often (which makes sense, since the casino is always going to set the rules for dealers to be in the best interest of winning).  I have had people make nasty comments like you got about me stealing a card or whatever, but I don't heed them.  I don't play at high limit tables (usually $5 or $10) and I figure if they are so great A) why is their chip pile so small and B) why aren't playing at higher limit tables?  Then I smile at myself "oh yeah, because really they aren't so great."

I also find if you calmly and politely yet firmly turn to them and say "please stop making nasty comments on how I play" they either stop or the dealer will at that point step in and also tell them to cut it out.

Do make sure you always tip your dealer, and your waitress, when you are winning though, as that is basic casino etiquette and it ensues the dealer has a vested interest in having you stay at his table.  And if you are tipping your dealer and there is friendly banter going on, and the dealer ever comments "really?  hit?" or "are you sure you want to stay?" take the hint from them and do as they recommend.

Basic strategy is essentially the mathematically best way to play the game. It is generally sold on small credit card sized guides in the gift shop. They are legal to use at the tables. It is basically a grid telling you what to do based on what you have and what the dealer is showing. The whole thing is based on the strategy that the next card to come up is more likely to be worth 10 than any other single possibility. You can take this system one step further by employing card counting strategies on top of it, though with questionable effectiveness and legallity.

Even using the basic strategy perfectly, the odds are still in the house's favor. Following the strategy essentially lets you lose slower and play longer.

What you should not do is follow the dealer's strategy, as it is designed for the dealer, not the player. These 2 positions are not the same thing and play by different rules. The principal difference is that you have to go first. You have the opportunity to bust before the dealer even shows his/her hand. If you follow the dealer's strategy, you will do worse than following the basic strategy outlined on the strategy guide card.

TootsNYC

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Re: Know When to Hold 'Em and Fold 'Em - Gambling Etiquette
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2013, 03:33:11 PM »
This whole taking someone else's card thing strikes me as being ridiculous. You could just as easily help the other players out instead of hurting them. I don't suppose anyone complains when that happens.

Does anyone have any methematical evidence that a player who doesn't follow the basic strategy is actually hurting the other players' chances?

I agree!

It's kind of hurting my head, actually.

WillyNilly

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Re: Know When to Hold 'Em and Fold 'Em - Gambling Etiquette
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2013, 03:35:09 PM »
I have never understood the whole "basic strategy" of blackjack as I have never see anyone win at it.  Instead I tend to play by the same standards posed on the table that dealers play ply (must hit on 16, must stay on 17) and I tend to win quite often (which makes sense, since the casino is always going to set the rules for dealers to be in the best interest of winning).  I have had people make nasty comments like you got about me stealing a card or whatever, but I don't heed them.  I don't play at high limit tables (usually $5 or $10) and I figure if they are so great A) why is their chip pile so small and B) why aren't playing at higher limit tables?  Then I smile at myself "oh yeah, because really they aren't so great."

I also find if you calmly and politely yet firmly turn to them and say "please stop making nasty comments on how I play" they either stop or the dealer will at that point step in and also tell them to cut it out.

Do make sure you always tip your dealer, and your waitress, when you are winning though, as that is basic casino etiquette and it ensues the dealer has a vested interest in having you stay at his table.  And if you are tipping your dealer and there is friendly banter going on, and the dealer ever comments "really?  hit?" or "are you sure you want to stay?" take the hint from them and do as they recommend.

Basic strategy is essentially the mathematically best way to play the game. It is generally sold on small credit card sized guides in the gift shop. They are legal to use at the tables. It is basically a grid telling you what to do based on what you have and what the dealer is showing. The whole thing is based on the strategy that the next card to come up is more likely to be worth 10 than any other single possibility. You can take this system one step further by employing card counting strategies on top of it, though with questionable effectiveness and legallity.

Even using the basic strategy perfectly, the odds are still in the house's favor. Following the strategy essentially lets you lose slower and play longer.

What you should not do is follow the dealer's strategy, as it is designed for the dealer, not the player. These 2 positions are not the same thing and play by different rules. The principal difference is that you have to go first. You have the opportunity to bust before the dealer even shows his/her hand. If you follow the dealer's strategy, you will do worse than following the basic strategy outlined on the strategy guide card.

Well I've never read one of those cards, but as I said, I do tend to do very well at blackjack on the rare occasion I play it, so I'll stick with my method, thanks. And I'll politely but firmly tell people who are telling me I'm doing something wrong - despite not breaking any rules - to not tell me how to play a game.

DavidH

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Re: Know When to Hold 'Em and Fold 'Em - Gambling Etiquette
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2013, 03:46:32 PM »
I think that if you play strictly to the odds and can count cards even minimally there are strategies to bring the odds to even or perhaps into your favor, but that's not really the point.  You might find it more fun to take risks, not want to bother counting cards, or any other reason to play as you do.  If it was just about the "investment", there are better ways to earn money anyway.

I think you have a few options, one is move to another table, another is to respond, that they are your cards, your bet, and your decision.  You could even say that your plan is working and maybe he should try following it since you're doing to well.  It's hard to ask the other person to move or to complain unless it is so far past the normal banter and ribbing that it couldn't possibly be taken any other way.

CluelessBride

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Re: Know When to Hold 'Em and Fold 'Em - Gambling Etiquette
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2013, 03:47:17 PM »
This whole taking someone else's card thing strikes me as being ridiculous. You could just as easily help the other players out instead of hurting them. I don't suppose anyone complains when that happens.

Does anyone have any methematical evidence that a player who doesn't follow the basic strategy is actually hurting the other players' chances?

I agree!

It's kind of hurting my head, actually.

I'm too lazy to read it close enough to check the logic, but this math claims the opposite (that bad players don't hurt you).

http://renzey.casinocitytimes.com/article/the-math-proves-that-bad-blackjack-players-dont-hurt-you-26105

I'm not big into black jack, but I do know in other games bad players can mess with your own strategy because they are a wild card. For example if you are playing bridge and your opponents bid randomly, it is considerably more difficult to know where certain cards are. Or if you are playing chess and your opponent is randomly moving around following no apparent strategy it can be harder to develop long term game plans.
 

deadbody

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Re: Know When to Hold 'Em and Fold 'Em - Gambling Etiquette
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2013, 03:59:46 PM »
This whole taking someone else's card thing strikes me as being ridiculous. You could just as easily help the other players out instead of hurting them. I don't suppose anyone complains when that happens.

Does anyone have any methematical evidence that a player who doesn't follow the basic strategy is actually hurting the other players' chances?

I agree!

It's kind of hurting my head, actually.

I'm too lazy to read it close enough to check the logic, but this math claims the opposite (that bad players don't hurt you).

http://renzey.casinocitytimes.com/article/the-math-proves-that-bad-blackjack-players-dont-hurt-you-26105

I'm not big into black jack, but I do know in other games bad players can mess with your own strategy because they are a wild card. For example if you are playing bridge and your opponents bid randomly, it is considerably more difficult to know where certain cards are. Or if you are playing chess and your opponent is randomly moving around following no apparent strategy it can be harder to develop long term game plans.

In both those cases though you are playing against your opponent.  In the case of blackjack you are playing against the dealer only, what everyone else does around you has no consequence to you.  The cards are random, and you are equally likely to be hurt by a playing making a statistically wrong play and by them making a right play.

Playing against a wild card of an opponent like Chess or Bridge is a wholly different matter (imagine playing blackjack against a dealer without the hit on 16 stay on 17 rules).

AllTheThings

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Re: Know When to Hold 'Em and Fold 'Em - Gambling Etiquette
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2013, 04:01:27 PM »
This whole taking someone else's card thing strikes me as being ridiculous. You could just as easily help the other players out instead of hurting them. I don't suppose anyone complains when that happens.

Does anyone have any methematical evidence that a player who doesn't follow the basic strategy is actually hurting the other players' chances?

I agree!

It's kind of hurting my head, actually.

I'm too lazy to read it close enough to check the logic, but this math claims the opposite (that bad players don't hurt you).

http://renzey.casinocitytimes.com/article/the-math-proves-that-bad-blackjack-players-dont-hurt-you-26105

I'm not big into black jack, but I do know in other games bad players can mess with your own strategy because they are a wild card. For example if you are playing bridge and your opponents bid randomly, it is considerably more difficult to know where certain cards are. Or if you are playing chess and your opponent is randomly moving around following no apparent strategy it can be harder to develop long term game plans.

Hence what ends up being called "beginner's luck."