"No Ties, No Jeans" notation on invitation

[Winterlight]

I think it gives you a useful range, personally. It's dressier than jeans, but not really formal.

[MariaE]

I didn't put it on the wedding invitations, when asked I said "Pantyhose very optional."  Everyone seemed to know precisely what that meant.  I don't know if I'd have put it on the invitation though.

Now I'm curious, what does that mean? I wouldn't have a clue!

[Amava]

I didn't put it on the wedding invitations, when asked I said "Pantyhose very optional."  Everyone seemed to know precisely what that meant.  I don't know if I'd have put it on the invitation though.

Now I'm curious, what does that mean? I wouldn't have a clue!

I would take that at face value and assume it means: "if there are people who really love to wear pantyhose and feel uncomfortable without it, or not "themselves" without it, by all means, go ahead and wear it; but it is certainly not something we expect people to wear unless they really want".

Is that what it meant, Sophia?

You see, there are also people who really love to wear a tie to a party and would feel uncomfortable and not festive enough without one; my father in law for example. I would never put "no jeans, no ties" for that very reason; I wouldn't like for my father in law to feel forbidden to wear his tie. Seriously, the only times he doesn't wear a tie is to bed, to bath, and to do chores and projects around the house. To go out for informal drinks with friends? Tie. To go play cards with family? Tie. And it doesn't make him look super-formal or make the other people feel underdressed. It's just part of who he is. 

[MariaE]

I figured as much, but I don't understand what it means in terms of 'level' of dress. Dress/skirt with pantyhose seems no more or less formal than dress/skirt without pantyhose. My choice of whether or not to wear pantyhose is all about warmth and nothing else.

[peaches]

I didn't put it on the wedding invitations, when asked I said "Pantyhose very optional."  Everyone seemed to know precisely what that meant.  I don't know if I'd have put it on the invitation though.

Now I'm curious, what does that mean? I wouldn't have a clue!

Many women don't wear pantyhose with dressy attire these days. Bare legs are acceptable - even fashionable - with dressy and formal attire.

Some women still wear pantyhose, and might feel exposed without it.

[Allyson]

I like this wording myself, because it feels like a fun, casual way to explain what they want concisely. Just my personal preference, but I don't really understand why it's rude to specify something because it expects your guests won't understand otherwise, when it's something that a lot of guests might really *not* understand otherwise. I like clarity.

[AmethystAnne]

I like the phrase, "No ties, no jeans".

I wouldn't know what business casual/casual chic/etc meant as dress code descriptors.

[Dandy Andy's Daddy's Love]

My interpretation of the "no jeans, no ties" line on the invite is that the hosts are specifying a particular range on the dress code scale. Jeans and ties are, in my experience two of the most commonly known levels of dress. Far more commonly known than "smart casual" or "formal", as the posts in this thread have demonstrated.

Many of today's jeans are sufficiently dressy and nice enough to wear as part of an outfit for a nice restaurant; that's appropriate for a casual party.  And some people feel more comfortable in ties, and some ties are pretty casual anyway.

The first gives the guests information on how dressy the event is, information they need to know and can only get from the hosts.  The second tells them you don't trust them to understand the standard or to dress appropriately, insulting their manners and/or their intelligence.

In my opinion, the the first statement shows exactly why the hosts worded things as they did. If they had put "smart casual" on the invitation, you yourself would have assumed that jeans and ties were appropriate. And you would have been wrong. It seems to me that they have good reason to not trust their guests to know what is appropriate to wear.

The hosts have the right to dictate the level of formality, not the wardrobe choices, of their guests. You appear very dismissive of the work and money that goes into planning an event of a certain style. It may not ruin the event to have someone show up in jeans, but faux pas' are not necessarily divided into one of two categories: "event ruining" and "not a problem". You (general) do not get to pout because you can't wear your designer jeans anymore than someone else gets to pout that they can't wear their tuxedo. If one dislikes the particular level of formality at a particular party, one should have the good grace to either show up dressed appropriately and express appreciation for the hospitality, or stay home.

[Iris]

Just as an aside, people who recieve an invitation and don't know how to interpret the dress code may find this site useful. I've only given it a quick perusal but it seems quite good. FWIW under "Fashion jeans" in "Smart Casual" for men is says "Not suitable for all occasions. If in doubt avoid."


http://www.dresscodeguide.com/ On the home page if you click "Click here for more" it will take you to the index where you can see all options at once.

[gellchom]

Oh, dear, I really didn't expect to go on this long, especially about such a minor thing!  But to respond --

Hmmmmm, you asked, "GellChom, if the dress code had been business casual, what would your opinion have been on jeans?"  I would not wear jeans to a business casual event.  Even nice jeans are not business wear; they are for social occasions (and yard work!).

Peaches, I think you put your finger right on it.  It's the negativity that's really the worst part.  It's a less gracious way to try to get what they want.

The over-specificity still bothers me, though.  It's just a little too controlling, a little too absorbed with making sure everyone makes Our Special Day just exactly the way we want it.  The same as if the invitation said, "Don't be late" -- of course the guests are rude if they come late, but you just have to trust them to know that, not treat them like naughty children who will get it wrong if you don't spell it out.  If someone wears a tie, what is the problem?  As Iris points out, there are plenty of resources that people check if they don't understand what "casual" means.  (And it does not mean "no ties" -- that may be what the hosts prefer, but a tie isn't incorrect at a casual event.)

"Dandy Andy's Daddy's Love," I think your post was a bit harsh.  In fact, we have hosted several large events ourselves, some formal, and I understand perfectly both what goes into all that planning and expense and also that the hosts have a vision, and there's nothing wrong with that.  That's why when there is any doubt at all, and if I happen to see the hostess (could be the host, but usually the hostess cares more), I try to ask to see if I can tell what she's hoping -- usually, it's the dressier end of whatever range there is on the invitation -- and I dress accordingly.  I know how much that means to hosts.  I also think that it shows that you consider their event a very big deal if you dress up for it at the dressier end of the range.  Nor was I "pouting" because I can't wear "designer jeans" (which I don't own anyway) to a party that as it happens we can't even attend and to which I would not have worn jeans of any kind, even as part of a rather dressy outfit.

[blarg314]

I do feel sorry for both hosts and guests when it comes to dress codes.

In the past it was possible for people at a given level of society to know what the acceptable dress for an invitation was based on the time of day and the type of event, plus a small number of basic descriptions.

Over the past generation or so, there have been several major shifts. One is in the variety of clothing that is acceptable to wear to different venues - mainly an overall relaxation. The other is a blurring in entertainment and social levels, so things like tuxedos and evening gowns occasionally pop up in the social lives of people who don't normally own tuxedos and evening gowns, or attend events that require them.  A third is an increase in the value of individuality when it comes to organizing events - the hosts/organizers can overthrow established protocol for events in favour of their unique vision and self expression. And finally, you have a mixing of culture and religions, so guests may not have the cultural background to automatically know what is appropriate to wear to, say, a Bar Mitzvah or a Chinese wedding.

So from the hosts' point of view, there is no longer a tidy set of cues they can give to their guests, because the guests aren't necessarily going to recognize or understand the cues. Coming up with your own terms is not very effective, and being explicit is frequently seen as overly blunt, and insulting to the invitees (see thread above).

And from the guests point of view, it can be a serious headache trying to figure out what they are supposed to actually wear, particularly when the hosts throw in creative descriptions that they've made up. Does the host really know what "black tie optional" actually means? Am I going to have to rent an outfit?  What does "festive attire", "black and white", "tropical cocktail", "casual formal" mean? What should I wear to an early evening wedding held on a beach with a video game theme? And of course, the times when the hosts are operating under the assumption that the guests are props in the production of their unique vision, and demand that they come dressed as extras for the performance, and the guests is left wondering "Do I really have to rent 17th century French formal wear and buy a corset just to see my sister married?"

In this particular case, the hosts have at least managed a clear, succinct description of the formality required for the men. As a woman, I'd still have a fair amount of uncertainty, though.

[violinp]

I do feel sorry for both hosts and guests when it comes to dress codes.

In the past it was possible for people at a given level of society to know what the acceptable dress for an invitation was based on the time of day and the type of event, plus a small number of basic descriptions.

Over the past generation or so, there have been several major shifts. One is in the variety of clothing that is acceptable to wear to different venues - mainly an overall relaxation. The other is a blurring in entertainment and social levels, so things like tuxedos and evening gowns occasionally pop up in the social lives of people who don't normally own tuxedos and evening gowns, or attend events that require them.  A third is an increase in the value of individuality when it comes to organizing events - the hosts/organizers can overthrow established protocol for events in favour of their unique vision and self expression. And finally, you have a mixing of culture and religions, so guests may not have the cultural background to automatically know what is appropriate to wear to, say, a Bar Mitzvah or a Chinese wedding.

So from the hosts' point of view, there is no longer a tidy set of cues they can give to their guests, because the guests aren't necessarily going to recognize or understand the cues. Coming up with your own terms is not very effective, and being explicit is frequently seen as overly blunt, and insulting to the invitees (see thread above).

And from the guests point of view, it can be a serious headache trying to figure out what they are supposed to actually wear, particularly when the hosts throw in creative descriptions that they've made up. Does the host really know what "black tie optional" actually means? Am I going to have to rent an outfit?  What does "festive attire", "black and white", "tropical cocktail", "casual formal" mean? What should I wear to an early evening wedding held on a beach with a video game theme? And of course, the times when the hosts are operating under the assumption that the guests are props in the production of their unique vision, and demand that they come dressed as extras for the performance, and the guests is left wondering "Do I really have to rent 17th century French formal wear and buy a corset just to see my sister married?"

In this particular case, the hosts have at least managed a clear, succinct description of the formality required for the men. As a woman, I'd still have a fair amount of uncertainty, though.

As far as I know, the accepted form of telling dress code is saying what the men will wear, and the women are supposed to take cues from that. However, I agree that the dress code for this function is too broad for anyone to really get a sense of what is wanted by the hosts.

[LifeOnPluto]

I agree that the hosts were probably trying to set a range, for the dress code. But even so, "No Ties, No Jeans" is still open to misinterpretation. For example, would it be ok to wear a nice pair of shorts? After all, they're not jeans!

I personally think it would have been better to put "Smart Casual". If the hosts absolutely did not want people wearing jeans, I guess they could have always worded it "Smart Casual (includes no jeans, please)".

Speaking of dress codes, the most confusing one I've encountered was from a friend who was hosting an Austin Powers themed party. The dress code stated on the invitation was "Shagadelic"!

[kareng57]

Oh, dear, I really didn't expect to go on this long, especially about such a minor thing!  But to respond --

Hmmmmm, you asked, "GellChom, if the dress code had been business casual, what would your opinion have been on jeans?"  I would not wear jeans to a business casual event.  Even nice jeans are not business wear; they are for social occasions (and yard work!).

Peaches, I think you put your finger right on it.  It's the negativity that's really the worst part.  It's a less gracious way to try to get what they want.

The over-specificity still bothers me, though.  It's just a little too controlling, a little too absorbed with making sure everyone makes Our Special Day just exactly the way we want it.  The same as if the invitation said, "Don't be late" -- of course the guests are rude if they come late, but you just have to trust them to know that, not treat them like naughty children who will get it wrong if you don't spell it out.  If someone wears a tie, what is the problem?  As Iris points out, there are plenty of resources that people check if they don't understand what "casual" means.  (And it does not mean "no ties" -- that may be what the hosts prefer, but a tie isn't incorrect at a casual event.)

"Dandy Andy's Daddy's Love," I think your post was a bit harsh.  In fact, we have hosted several large events ourselves, some formal, and I understand perfectly both what goes into all that planning and expense and also that the hosts have a vision, and there's nothing wrong with that.  That's why when there is any doubt at all, and if I happen to see the hostess (could be the host, but usually the hostess cares more), I try to ask to see if I can tell what she's hoping -- usually, it's the dressier end of whatever range there is on the invitation -- and I dress accordingly.  I know how much that means to hosts.  I also think that it shows that you consider their event a very big deal if you dress up for it at the dressier end of the range.  Nor was I "pouting" because I can't wear "designer jeans" (which I don't own anyway) to a party that as it happens we can't even attend and to which I would not have worn jeans of any kind, even as part of a rather dressy outfit.

 
You might have thought it harsh - but I think the message is pretty clear.  If a host/ess doesn't want guests wearing jeans to an event, he/she has to find a way to communicate it.  "Smart casual" doesn't necessarily do it - many people might figure chinos to be on the same level as denim.

I do agree that I don't like the "no ties" since there are indeed men who feel that they have to wear a tie almost anywhere other than a trip to the hardware store, and it's really not going to detract from the event if there are a couple of guys wearing ties.  Jeans are different, however.  There's no denying that there is increased informality in our culture these days, and sometimes it's necessary to spell-out what is and is not acceptable.

[that_one_girl]

I think the wording is a little crude, but their hearts are in the right place (trying to keep their guests from committing a faux pas)

Perhaps they could say "Business casual, ties not required."  or if it is the venue that has certain rules, "venue prohibits jeans."