multilingual rudeness (vent)

[Lauren]

MerryRaven, whenever I go overseas I always try and learn the basics of a language. I found in Europe, that more often than not the people serving you spoke English and would switch straight away for you. Only time it was a problem was an Austraian Post Office, where no-one spoke English. Thank God I spoke some German.

but the day I was at The Alamo and overheard a group of Mexican-speaking people insulting the Americans who died at The Alamo

What they did was unspeakingly rude, but without meaning to sound rude myself, maybe you need to read up a bit more on the Alamo. Wasn't the whole reason for the Alamo as a way to continue the Indian Wars?

[gadget--gal]

Okay, but if any of you were in a non-English speaking country, would you speak in your language only?

That wasn't the point of my op. If you're having a private conversation the feel free to use whatever language you please. Just don't speak another language as a cover up to gossip about the other person next to you. Conversely if  am travelling I try and learn a couple of words and phrases.

[kherbert05]

MerryRaven, whenever I go overseas I always try and learn the basics of a language. I found in Europe, that more often than not the people serving you spoke English and would switch straight away for you. Only time it was a problem was an Austraian Post Office, where no-one spoke English. Thank God I spoke some German.

but the day I was at The Alamo and overheard a group of Mexican-speaking people insulting the Americans who died at The Alamo

What they did was unspeakingly rude, but without meaning to sound rude myself, maybe you need to read up a bit more on the Alamo. Wasn't the whole reason for the Alamo as a way to continue the Indian Wars?

I'm not sure which "Indian Wars" you are referring to. Yes the Alamo was a Spanish Mission. It was used to forcibly "convert" Native Americans to Catholism. I pretty sure it was never used as fort during the American "Indian Wars".

It is also the site of one of the two most famous battles of the Texas Revolution. The Texans (not Americans) defending it were buying time for Sam Houston to gather troops and supplies. Santa Anna had made it clear that no quarter (mercy) would be given (he did spare about a dozen women and children). All the defenders of the Alamo were slaughtered. Remember Goliad, Remember the Alamo became the battle cry for the Texas Revolution. The Alamo is considered sacred ground and a shrine in Texas. Insulting the defenders of the Alamo in the Alamo is the same as being disrespectful at Arlington National Cemetery. The two are linked together in my mind, because of my Father's very stern instructions on how we were to behave at both sites (about a year apart).

[T'Mar of Vulcan]

That wasn't the point of my op. If you're having a private conversation the feel free to use whatever language you please. Just don't speak another language as a cover up to gossip about the other person next to you. [/quote]

I was always taught that it's rude to speak in another language in front of people who can't understand that language.

My colleague Linda can speak five languages; however, none of them is Afrikaans. Whenever she would go to netball or somewhere with the other colleagues, they would inevitably speak Afrikaans and she would feel left out. One day she asked me what I would have done. I said, "I would say, 'You guys know I can't speak Afrikaans, right? So I'm going to think you're gossiping about me!'"

I have another problem, in that while I *can* speak Afrikaans, I tend to stick to English because I find it hard to switch back and forth. If I immerse myself in the language, it is flawless. But switch back and forth and I get tongue-tied. So I know what people are saying, but even if I jump in and speak Afrikaans, everyone switches to English and doesn't give me a chance to "get into" the language. I got quite annoyed at one stage and said, "I CAN understand you, you know. You don't have to switch." And one teacher told me that it had nothing to do with me, but that it's automatic for Afrikaans people who work in English-medium environments to switch without thinking when an English person enters the conversation. So then I felt better.

[gadget--gal]

That wasn't the point of my op. If you're having a private conversation the feel free to use whatever language you please. Just don't speak another language as a cover up to gossip about the other person next to you.

I was always taught that it's rude to speak in another language in front of people who can't understand that language.

My colleague Linda can speak five languages; however, none of them is Afrikaans. Whenever she would go to netball or somewhere with the other colleagues, they would inevitably speak Afrikaans and she would feel left out. One day she asked me what I would have done. I said, "I would say, 'You guys know I can't speak Afrikaans, right? So I'm going to think you're gossiping about me!'"

I have another problem, in that while I *can* speak Afrikaans, I tend to stick to English because I find it hard to switch back and forth. If I immerse myself in the language, it is flawless. But switch back and forth and I get tongue-tied. So I know what people are saying, but even if I jump in and speak Afrikaans, everyone switches to English and doesn't give me a chance to "get into" the language. I got quite annoyed at one stage and said, "I CAN understand you, you know. You don't have to switch." And one teacher told me that it had nothing to do with me, but that it's automatic for Afrikaans people who work in English-medium environments to switch without thinking when an English person enters the conversation. So then I felt better.

You're right, it would be rude in a private or semi-public serting. when I was typing, I was thinking or public situation in foregin countries when I wrote the previous post. e.g while walking in the streets or at a tourist attraction.

[Venus193]

Okay, but if any of you were in a non-English speaking country, would you speak in your language only?

Most tourists from the US expect everyone, everywhere to speak English.  And often they are correct as foreign languges are taught in school in other countries. 

No, they are not correct.  It is often incredibly rude to have this expectation from anyone outside the tourism industry.  In Germany most college graduates under the age of 45 speak English at least superficially, but only those who need it for business will speak it consistently.  In Spain this group is younger.

When I was on vacation in Spain in 1993 I spent a lot of time translating menus and signs for other Americans and a few Brits.  I was incensed that none of them even thought to buy a phrase book prior to their departure and even said so.  If that earned me a stay in E-Hell, so be it.  I just get very angry at anything that contributes to the image of The Ugly American.

When in Rome, do as the Romans do.  If you make the attempt to speak the local language, most people will appreciate the effort even if you don't do it perfectly.  The ones who speak English may meet you halfway.  However it is rude and with entitlement-minded to expect that they can automatically accomodate you.

[Emmy]

This reminds me of the Seinfeld where Elanie was getting her nails done and just knew the Korean women in the shop were talking about her in Korean because they were looking at her and laughing when they talked. 

I agree that it isn't rude for people who speak another native language to have private conversations in their own language, but it is rude for them to talk derogatory about other people right in front of the using said language because they think that person won't understand.

I have a friend who was a Spanish major, but is caucasion.  In college she dated a Spanish guy who lived 2.5 hours away with his parents and didn't have a car so she was stuck driving to see time.  One time she called and his mom, whom she never met, awnsered the phone and told him "la gringa" was on the phone, which is derogatory for white girl.  Needless to say mommy's boy never stood up to his mom.  My friend was also never invited into their home after her long drive so she and her bf couldn't hang out there.

Americans who go abroad should attempt to learn the language of the country they visit, it's a matter of common curteosy.  I would find it rude for foreign vistors (or residents) to come to the U.S. and not attempt to speak any English and I would feel the same about Americans living in non-English speaking countries.

[Suze]

I was the "recipient" on the end of a I don't speak your language incadent.

My folks and I were staying at a rather large hotel in Chicago. When we got to our room I discovered that they had not set up towels and such for three people.  I looked out the door to see if the maid was still in the hall, and went to ask her for another set of towels.

She pulled the I don't speak english trick on me. (I think that she was Mexican, at least that's what she sounded like to me) and I can only speak "American" (I never thought that I would need a foreign language to live in my own country)

As she was doing the "I no speak english" a very nice gentleman came out of his room down the hall and seeing what was going on asked me if I was having a problem.  I explained that we needed a set up for three people and that I could not get another set of towels form this lady.

He asked her politly first in english and when she replied "I no speak english" he lit into her in Spanish. I don't know what he said to her (I don't think some of it was very nice)  But we had really good service the rest of our stay.

If you are a tourist some where it is one thing if you don't know or know very little of the language. You are not going to be there very long.

But If you are going to live in a foreign country you should at least make an effort to learn the language.  And it is not a new thing, there were a lot of people in my area from Germany, that they didn't learn english untill they started school because there was no english spoken at home.  An uncle of mine being one.

[Venus193]

Cristina Saralegui used to have a daytime talk show that occasionally escalated into Jerry Springer mode.  On one show she had guests who refused to learn English in spite of having lived in the US for more than a couple of years.  Her studio audience raked them over the coals for this.

The hotel maid might not have been in the US very long.  She might have been undocumented and hired as cheap labor.  In either case, if an employer takes on a person who isn't a native speaker of English, the least s/he can do is teach them the basic words to cover situations like this.

Here's hoping that maid will become one of the people in that studio audience rather than the ones onstage.

[IndianInlaw]

The maid should know the english word for towels...

The lady who cleans at our grocery store speaks only Portuguese.  When I first met her I asked her a question and she said she didn't speak English.   She was very pleasant about it and I tried to be pleasant in return.

She keeps that place spotless though.  When the district manager was there, my son interrupted his meeting in the food court to tell him what a great store it is.  I decided I may as well chime in and say how clean it is.

[hkkatie]

I have a few funny examples I can add to this...

One of the first friends I met when we moved here (to Hong Kong) is caucasian/American, but at the time had already lived here for about 5 years, and had previously served a mission for our church here and learned to speak the language fluently. She is quite a bit larger than your average asian woman. One time she got into an elevator with some elderly Chinese women and they immediately started talking rudely about her, something to the effect of not wanting to be in the same elevator as the fat gweilo. (Gweilo being a term used for foreigners, sometimes not a nice thing). My friend turned to them and in perfect Cantonese basically told them if they didn't want to be in there with her, then they could get out. (yes, it was rude, but seriously, how would you respond???) The ladies were quite shocked and embarassed and didn't say another word until it was their turn to get off.

The other is with my dh. He is HK Chinese, born here, and lived here until he was about 13 when his family immigrated to the US. (He speaks Cantonese, Mandarin, and English all fluently.) I learned quite quickly here that most people do speak at least a little English, so you really do have to be careful what you say. I'm sorry to say that my dh still hasn't learned that lesson. Anyway, we were waiting at a bus stop, and there was a couple there looking at the route map trying to decide if that was the right bus for them. They were obviously from mainland China (can tell by their accent and dress) and dh said something naughty in English about mainland Chinese (can't remember for the life of me what it was, though). I quickly hushed him and reminded him that they probably spoke English and he resisted saying that he could tell by their accent that they were from a poor province, probably didn't have much schooling, that sort of thing. Boy was he surprised a minute later when they came up to him and asked him for directions... in English! My poor dh was so embarassed, but I have to say that I'm glad it happened because he does need to learn to control himself, and think before he speaks.

And in regards to if you are living in a foreign country that you should learn the language... I completely agree. However, that makes me a bit of a hypocrite because we've been here 3.5 years, and I know a few phrases and things, but am nowhere near being able to carry on any sort of conversation. I guess it's because I haven't felt like I really needed to learn it. Like I said earlier, pretty much most of the population knows at least a little English, and so I can get by in the stores or in the taxi or whatever. Dh handles pretty much anything else, and I'm surrounded by English speaking people (church, other activities). I have tried a few things to learn more, but each time it just hasn't panned out. (Not enough money for private lessons, no one to watch my daughter etc etc.) So I don't think you (general you, no one in particular) should be too harsh on people who don't speak the language because you don't know their specific circumstances. Am I sick of dh's relatives asking him if I can speak it yet? YES! But that doesn't change the fact that I don't have money/babysitter/tons of time to dedicate to it at this point in my life when I can get by without it.

[Suze]

The maid should know the english word for towels...

Me too, although I thought that pointing to the towels and holding up 3 fingers and then pointing to the room we were staying in would have been enough of a clue even if you didn't speak english.

Could it have been one of those people who just didn't want to do any "extra" work?  Maybe, there are a lot of them out there. (of ALL nationalities)

I worked with a true gentleman who was from India and he had more than a few harsh words to say on this subject. He was of the camp that if you live here you sould at least speak enough of the lanuage to get by, and not expect everyone else to change to suit you.

[CBugg]

In my opinion, it is very rude.

My fav story about something like this is when some people were talking about me in another language.
Imagine their surprised when I turned around and answered them.

I have to admit, I enjoyed the shocked and horrified looks on their faces.  Hopefully, they learned that just because someone doesn't look like they speak the language, doesn't mean they don't!

Love,
CBugg

[hollasa]

The Alamo is considered sacred ground and a shrine in Texas. Insulting the defenders of the Alamo in the Alamo is the same as being disrespectful at Arlington National Cemetery. 

I'm curious about this, and I hope that I don't breach the rules of etiquette by asking about this. How sacred is the Alamo? What would be an insult to the defenders of the Alamo?

Would mentioning the slave issue (Mexico didn't allow slaves, while Texas did) be considered an insult? Would the Davy Crockett question (died either fighting, or after being taken prisoner) be considered an insult? Is it that it was done at the site that it was a major insult, or would it be insulting other places?

I hope you don't mind my asking, I am truly curious, and I hope I'm being polite.

[VorFemme]

When we got out of the elevator, I asked her what was up with that and she told me that the men in the elevator, obviously unaware that one of us spoke their language, were making lewd comments about my friend and I.  She, in turn, was telling me, in XXXXXXXX, that only men with issues over the size of their, um, manhood, make sexual comments about strangers.

I know neither her nor the men will ever win any etiquette awards for their actions that day, but I can't help but chuckle when I remember the stunned looks on their faces.

Actually, under the circumstances - I'd say that your friend had a remarkable grasp of a diplomatic way to handle the situation.  Only the offenders were embarressed in the group - as you had no way of knowing what was going on until later - hopefully in a more private location.............

And the men might have deserved more than being embarressed - depending on what they actually said............the laws in the USA, Britian, and other English speaking countries are rather less tolerant of men making lewd comments in public about women than their native country might be.............