multilingual rudeness (vent)

[MadMadge43]

I've had my share of people speaking about me in other languages stories and do find it rude.

But the most uncomfortable I had ever been was when I was working with a physic at the "Haunted Hotel" I worked at. She was very close to one of our "guests that wouldn't leave" and he would talk to her about me while I was in the room with her. From what she said, he thought I was attractive and would say the most sexist things possible. Sometimes she would just say "shut up" to him while we were in the midst of a conversation and then look really embarrased at me.

It was rather disconcerting. I mean really? I can deal with rude people who are there, but had no idea how to handle this situation, and considering I'm not a big believer I sometimes wondered if it was just her opinions coming through.

[lizzyillustration]

I live in Israel, and am completely bilingual, and almost fluent in my third  language, and my daughters are tri lingual_
( we speak English,  Hebrew  and Spanish). My eldest  daughter can get by pretty well in Arabic as well.
 We have very strict etiquette rule.. we will speak the language of whoever  our company  is,,, if friends from  my girls  schools come over, we only speak Hebrew so they will not feel left out... if English speakers are over, we only speak English... and in mixed company, its either everyone speaking Hebrew , or English( or if everyone is a Spanish speaker.. my ex is form Argentina., than we all speak Spanish)
 I think it is incredibly rude to speak  another  language in front of people who do not understand it, if you can all speak in a common languagethat evryone can nderstand... for example..  as a child, my grandmother and Auntie would speak Yiddish if they didnt want us kids to understand them, and it would really drive us nuts.

[Linley]

One of the most annoying use of a foreign language that I have witnessed (and I have seen many) unfortunately involved my mother. She came to visit me in Vienna and spent the whole time talking about the Second World War in a loud voice, but here's the catch, in English. Of course, a large proportion of the population in Vienna speaks English so I think plenty of people could understand her. I found it rather PA, I feel she was expressing her unhappiness with my choice of city without actually coming out and telling me that. I am more than willing to discuss the subject with her (after all this is what I study) but I do not believe that in public in the center of the city on the busiest street around is the appropriate place for this conversation. I spent the whole time telling her through gritted teeth that this was not the time or place to discuss this and of course she then accused me of refusing to face reality. I was annoyed because I don't think she would have dared to do this if we were speaking German (or if otherwise the local language was the same as the one we were using.) I do appreciate that it is a difficult and touchy subject (plus my mother is Jewish) but I was still not happy with her behavior.

[housewife2k]

I have a gypsy background from my father's side, so grew up speaking a few different dialects of Romani, romanian, french, and some greek. My sister is a French major, and incredibly fluent. My mom's side is Italian by way of Oklahoma (how that one happened is beyond my guess), and Hubby is very Irish. and BIL is fluent in japanese. On top of this Oldest son goes to a Mandarin Chinese immersion school, and even though he is only in Kindergarten, three months of 8 hours a day only in Mandarin give fluency fast. One of my favorite passtimes is busting people for gossiping abuot us in forign languages, you never know who will understand. Private conversations are just that, and could be spoken in code for all I care, but talk about me or mine, and you'll get an earful.
On the other hand, I really have to check myself when it comes to swearuing in public, as I will often swear in Romani, and then have to appologize to the gypsy 'revered grandmother' I just offended.

[Elly]

I worked as a nanny for many years for a couple who came from another country but had become citizens of the USA and spoke fluent English. All of their relatives still lived in their native country, so naturally they wanted their daughter to speak both  languages in order to communicate with her grandparents. Until I started caring for her (at 9 months of age) all the child had heard was their native language but, of course, at 9 months old that wasn't a problem.

I understood that they wanted their child to be bilingual (and now, at 11, she certainly is!), and I understood that with a stranger in their home about 12 hours a day they had a right to private conversations, but they also used the language to exclude me many times when it seemed unnecessary and it really did hurt my feelings. It seemed to me that if they entrusted their precious child to my care, they could make more of an effort to include me. And, of course, there's always that paranoia that they were talking about me!

It was also a nightmare when one of the grandparents came to visit, who didn't speak English, and I'd have to spend 12 hours or so with someone I couldn't talk to for weeks at a time (they never understood how stressful that was). Eventually the child could translate, but she thought it was really funny to speak English to Grandma and the other language to me!

I was very happy to note when I spent some time with the child recently, she seemed to understand the "exclusion thing." We called her mom on her cell phone to tell her we were back at their home after some shopping, and she spoke to her mother in their shared language, but when she hung up the phone told me what she had said. She has no idea how special it is to speak more than one language fluently and I do think it is very cool...but not to exclude people on purpose.

[MerryRaven]

I am sorry but I don't see that it is 'rude' to speak ones native language if that is the only language you know.

I speak a little Spanish and understand and can speak some basic French.  If I was living in Mexico, South America or Spain or France or parts of Canada, I could probably handle basic transactions.

If I was going to have a discussion with my DH or my daughters or friends in public I would have to have it in English.  Conversations with others are different than buying something or asking directions. 

In my opinion, one shouldn't assume people are talking about you even if they are.  Part of etiquette is rising above the bad behavior of others.

[housewife2k]

I am sorry but I don't see that it is 'rude' to speak ones native language if that is the only language you know.

I speak a little Spanish and understand and can speak some basic French.  If I was living in Mexico, South America or Spain or France or parts of Canada, I could probably handle basic transactions.

If I was going to have a discussion with my DH or my daughters or friends in public I would have to have it in English.  Conversations with others are different than buying something or asking directions. 

In my opinion, one shouldn't assume people are talking about you even if they are.  Part of etiquette is rising above the bad behavior of others.

I think what the OP and others are referring to is when someone has more than one language, and will use one of the languages that you do not know, in front of you, to talk about you or to exclude you on purpose. Knowing full well, or thinking, that you will not understand.

[nutraxfornerves]

One of my coworkers immigrated to the US from a Spanish-speaking country. His college studies had been French and English literature and he is fluent in both languages. Coworker was riding on a street car in his native country when two English-speaking g*a*y men began to make very sexual comments about him--his body, what they might like to do with him, etc. He let it go on just long enough, then blandly turned to them and said something like "Oh, you really think that about me?" They were a bit embarrassed, but then continued the conversation--in French. This time, when Coworker spoke up, the men couldn't bail out of the streetcar fast enough.

I have traveled in something like 40 countries. I do not know the languages of a lot of those countries, but I have always made a point of learning "hello", "please", "thank you" and the all-important "where is the toilet?" I once figured out that I could say either "hello" or "good morning" in something like 25 languages.

But, in defense of non-learners, learning a new language, even a few words of it, is very difficult for some people. Others might be able to learn a few words, but never can get the pronunciation right. I remember trying to teach an English-speaker how to say "thanks" in Turkish (tesekküler) . He simply could not pronounce it correctly. The correct pronunciation is something like "tesh-e-kew-lair" He kept saying "te-SHEKK-ler."  Even when I spoke both versions for him, he genuinely did not hear the difference. He especially did not hear the difference between "ler" (rhymes with the American pronunciation of "her," the R must be pronounced) and "lair" (rhymes with "hair").  He admitted to being a strong visual learner and said that he had always had problems with language.

[Yes, I do know the correct pronunciation of tesekküler is a little different. But it is hard for most speakers of other languages and I was just trying to help him say something intelligible. We finally settled for the informal "sowl."  Not always appropriate, but much easier to say and the kind Turks will appreciate that you are trying. ]

[lizzyillustration]

merry I agree with you.
 but lets say, there are 6 children playing with each other.... all of them speak , lets  stay, Hebrew  on a mother tongue level,, but two of them also speak English fluently. I've taught my children that it is very rude  for the two  children who speak an additional language fluently to exclude the others by speaking a language they all don't understand, if in addition they all speak  a common language on a mothertongue level..
 of course its absurd to    expect  someone  who can only speak one language  to  not speak in that language. I think we are referring  to bi and tri lingual people here who choose to exclude others by speaking  in a language others don't understand, when a common language is shared by all.ere.

[gadget--gal]

I am sorry but I don't see that it is 'rude' to speak ones native language if that is the only language you know.

I speak a little Spanish and understand and can speak some basic French.  If I was living in Mexico, South America or Spain or France or parts of Canada, I could probably handle basic transactions.

If I was going to have a discussion with my DH or my daughters or friends in public I would have to have it in English.  Conversations with others are different than buying something or asking directions. 

In my opinion, one shouldn't assume people are talking about you even if they are.  Part of etiquette is rising above the bad behavior of others.

I think what the OP and others are referring to is when someone has more than one language, and will use one of the languages that you do not know, in front of you, to talk about you or to exclude you on purpose. Knowing full well, or thinking, that you will not understand.

that's exactly what I meant, thank you!

[ettacat]

Okay, but if any of you were in a non-English speaking country, would you speak in your language only?

Most tourists from the US expect everyone, everywhere to speak English.  And often they are correct as foreign languges are taught in school in other countries. 

So many people from Finland, or Japan, or wherever know English while I can say that I would have to be rude and speak only English in Finland or Japan.

If I had time before I visited or moved to that country, I would do my best to learn as much of the language as I could learn. At least, I would be getting tapes and books to try to learn some common phrases.

[kjdragonfly]

The Alamo is considered sacred ground and a shrine in Texas. Insulting the defenders of the Alamo in the Alamo is the same as being disrespectful at Arlington National Cemetery. 

I'm curious about this, and I hope that I don't breach the rules of etiquette by asking about this. How sacred is the Alamo? What would be an insult to the defenders of the Alamo?

Would mentioning the slave issue (Mexico didn't allow slaves, while Texas did) be considered an insult? Would the Davy Crockett question (died either fighting, or after being taken prisoner) be considered an insult? Is it that it was done at the site that it was a major insult, or would it be insulting other places?

I hope you don't mind my asking, I am truly curious, and I hope I'm being polite.

As a Texan, and a history buff, I have to respond:  The Alamo, in addition to being a mission, church and site of a massacre is also the only grave for the defenders, whose bodies were burned there.  Whatever the reason for the war, it is rude to criticize the dead at a memorial.  I agree that the motives for the Texan-Mexican war might not have been the most pure, but what war was done for pure motives?  Most wars have multiple reasons, political, economic and social, to name a few.  If you wish to criticize the war, please do so in an academic setting, not at the site of a massacre and a memorial to the dead.     
KJ

[Pixie]

The Alamo is considered sacred ground and a shrine in Texas. Insulting the defenders of the Alamo in the Alamo is the same as being disrespectful at Arlington National Cemetery. 

I'm curious about this, and I hope that I don't breach the rules of etiquette by asking about this. How sacred is the Alamo? What would be an insult to the defenders of the Alamo?

Would mentioning the slave issue (Mexico didn't allow slaves, while Texas did) be considered an insult? Would the Davy Crockett question (died either fighting, or after being taken prisoner) be considered an insult? Is it that it was done at the site that it was a major insult, or would it be insulting other places?

I hope you don't mind my asking, I am truly curious, and I hope I'm being polite.

As a Texan, and a history buff, I have to respond:  The Alamo, in addition to being a mission, church and site of a massacre is also the only grave for the defenders, whose bodies were burned there.  Whatever the reason for the war, it is rude to criticize the dead at a memorial.  I agree that the motives for the Texan-Mexican war might not have been the most pure, but what war was done for pure motives?  Most wars have multiple reasons, political, economic and social, to name a few.  If you wish to criticize the war, please do so in an academic setting, not at the site of a massacre and a memorial to the dead.     
KJ

THANK YOU!  As a Yankee who is a newcomer to Texas, I couldn't explain it, I only knew it bothered me, and deeply upset me.   It felt  just so wrong.  I will not repeat what I heard, but I do know it was not right.

[kjdragonfly]

The Alamo is considered sacred ground and a shrine in Texas. Insulting the defenders of the Alamo in the Alamo is the same as being disrespectful at Arlington National Cemetery. 

I'm curious about this, and I hope that I don't breach the rules of etiquette by asking about this. How sacred is the Alamo? What would be an insult to the defenders of the Alamo?

Would mentioning the slave issue (Mexico didn't allow slaves, while Texas did) be considered an insult? Would the Davy Crockett question (died either fighting, or after being taken prisoner) be considered an insult? Is it that it was done at the site that it was a major insult, or would it be insulting other places?

I hope you don't mind my asking, I am truly curious, and I hope I'm being polite.

As a Texan, and a history buff, I have to respond:  The Alamo, in addition to being a mission, church and site of a massacre is also the only grave for the defenders, whose bodies were burned there.  Whatever the reason for the war, it is rude to criticize the dead at a memorial.  I agree that the motives for the Texan-Mexican war might not have been the most pure, but what war was done for pure motives?  Most wars have multiple reasons, political, economic and social, to name a few.  If you wish to criticize the war, please do so in an academic setting, not at the site of a massacre and a memorial to the dead.     
KJ

THANK YOU!  As a Yankee who is a newcomer to Texas, I couldn't explain it, I only knew it bothered me, and deeply upset me.   It felt  just so wrong.  I will not repeat what I heard, but I do know it was not right.

Welcome to this great state!  Hopefully by now, you have assured all your friends and reletives that no, no one rides a horse to work, yes, Texas has cities and no, we do not all have an oil well in our backyards! 
And yes, I have been asked some of those things when traveling. 
KJ

[ettacat]

Since Sign Language is an official language, I will post another gripe here.

My SIL and her daughter, neither one of them deaf, are both proficient in Sign Language. I think it is rude for them to converse openly, in front of other people (none of them deaf either) in Sign Language.

If there were a hearing-impaired person nearby, I would not think a thing of it, of course. But, otherwise, I find it very rude.