Unreasonable Expectations? (Long)

[jimithing]

My girlfriend called me this morning to vent.  She is a nurse and has been considering going into a Master's nursing program and actually had an information session for the program today. She said that her BF is against this and said that she didn't need to go into the program as she didn't want to work fulltime anyway.  He also said that by the time she was done with the program, she would be out $80,000 in student loans and lost wages, as she would be able to work very little if she was in this program.

My friend was very upset about how now she can't do this program.  I asked her why she can't do the program and she said that she is worried that he will be very unhappy and upset.  They have been dating for 6 months, and although they have had one brief conversation about marriage, they are definitely not anywhere near engaged. 

I told her that she does not have a ring on her finger and he has not made any sort of commitment to her at this point, and she has no obligation to not pursue something that she has been wanting to do for a long time.  I told her that she needs to sit down with him and have a serious talk with him about why he is worried about this and what specifically bothers him about this.  I am concerned that he is expecting her to stay at home and have babies while he in the only one who works, which is not what she plans to do.

I started a thread about values and this is the same couple who haven't talked about having children and other major life decisions.  This is the problem that can occur!

Also, I am struggling with something similar with my DH.  When I met him he was a martial arts instructor and wanted to do that for the rest of the life.  A year after we got married, he decided he wanted to be a firefighter, but really likes the medical aspect of the job.  I told him that I wasn't excited but I would be supportive. 

In the time that he was going to school he got a job working as an armored car driver.  I developed major anxiety about his job and something dangerous happening. I do not think that I can handle him being a firefighter.  I would be a nervous wreck and it scares me to death. He has obtained two EMT licenses and is working in the medical field, which he really enjoys doing.  He wants to go to paramedic school before the fire academy and I am trying to convince him to stop there and not go into the fire academy.

My question, after that long post, is at what point in the relationship do expectations regarding the other person become unreasonable?  I am trying to be a supportive wife, yet dealing with feelings of resentment as I didn't sign up for this to begin with.  In my case, if I told my DH I really did not want him to be a firefighter and it would cause problems within our marriage, he wouldn't do it.  But I also want to be supportive of his goals.

What say you, eHellions?

[Lisbeth]

I think an expectation becomes unreasonable if:

1) It requires the other person to give up their dreams for a completely different lifestyle
2) It doesn't allow for negotiation
3) It expects the other person to require your "permission" when normally that wouldn't be necessary
4) It puts the other person's life or health at risk
5) It interferes with an existing nonabusive relationship (unless that relationship is supposed to have expired)

[Trisha]

I told her that she does not have a ring on her finger and he has not made any sort of commitment to her at this point, and she has no obligation to not pursue something that she has been wanting to do for a long time

Even *IF* she did have a ring on her finger she shouldn't have to give up what she wants to do. I can't imagine my husband telling me I shouldn't/couldn't finish school for something I wanted to do, and if he did I couldn't imagine saying ok. Unless there were financial reasons, in which case, I would wait till they were sorted out and then finish my degree.

[Slartibartfast]

In a good give-and-take relationship, each partner can accept the idea of giving up particular dreams because it makes the other one happy.  This shouldn't be EVERY dream, though, or even many of the major ones.  If you as a couple can't come to an agreement about having children, raising children in a particular religion, sharing or not sharing finances, or who is working, then the relationship is not going to be healthy.

Jimithing, I think you have a valid issue with your husband's safety on the job, and you should talk with him about it.  Ultimately you should find a way to either be more comfortable with his chosen job, or he should find something he loves to do that's not so dangerous that you have to worry.  If you can't compromise on your own, you can try counseling (although that makes me sound like Ann Landers, eep!)

But one partner *telling* the other partner they have to give up their education or their career?  Not good.

[jimithing]

I told her that she does not have a ring on her finger and he has not made any sort of commitment to her at this point, and she has no obligation to not pursue something that she has been wanting to do for a long time

Even *IF* she did have a ring on her finger she shouldn't have to give up what she wants to do. I can't imagine my husband telling me I shouldn't/couldn't finish school for something I wanted to do, and if he did I couldn't imagine saying ok. Unless there were financial reasons, in which case, I would wait till they were sorted out and then finish my degree.

Oh, I completely agree.  I was just trying to get across the point that they aren't even engaged and he is telling her this.  Not only are they not engaged, they aren't even close. What she does with her finances at this point do not affect him. I think that a fiancee or husband has the right and option to have more input that someone who is dating someone casually.

[lilfaerhie]

I told her that she does not have a ring on her finger and he has not made any sort of commitment to her at this point, and she has no obligation to not pursue something that she has been wanting to do for a long time

Even *IF* she did have a ring on her finger she shouldn't have to give up what she wants to do. I can't imagine my husband telling me I shouldn't/couldn't finish school for something I wanted to do, and if he did I couldn't imagine saying ok. Unless there were financial reasons, in which case, I would wait till they were sorted out and then finish my degree.

that's what i was going to say. absolutely. i believe a request becomes unreasonable when it stops becoming a request either through statements such as "you aren't going to!" or passive agressive emotional blackmail "you KNOW i get panic attacks! WHY would you do that! you must NOT love me!" etc. the two people should discuss thier feelings, and the person who is considering to become, say, an EMT should take the other persons feelings and desires into serious consideration but the ultimate decision is up to them.

if, after due consideration and discussion, they do decide to become an EMT, then the other spouse needs to find some way of working through thier anxiety - either with the help of the spouse, friend and/or a professional.

[jimithing]

if, after due consideration and discussion, they do decide to become an EMT, then the other spouse needs to find some way of working through thier anxiety - either with the help of the spouse, friend and/or a professional.

I actually did do this.  I saw a therapist for 3 months to deal with this situational anxiety and it helped tremendously.  My anxiety has subsided greatly, but not to the point where I would be OK with my DH being a firefighter.

[lilfaerhie]

if, after due consideration and discussion, they do decide to become an EMT, then the other spouse needs to find some way of working through thier anxiety - either with the help of the spouse, friend and/or a professional.

I actually did do this.  I saw a therapist for 3 months to deal with this situational anxiety and it helped tremendously.  My anxiety has subsided greatly, but not to the point where I would be OK with my DH being a firefighter.

oh, i wasn't trying to aim that specifically at you. i am glad it helped! i was just trying to make the point that one person saying "no absolutely not", especially without some effort to become ok with the idea, is a good way to build up resentment on the part of the other person.

now, if the other spouse has done all the can to be comfortable with the idea and just can't, then the spouse that wants to be EMT etc really should do some soul-searching as to whether it would be selfish to proceed with the job. perhaps look at the reasons why they want to go into that field - the adrenaline rush, to help people, - and see if there is another, not as dangerous job, that fills those reasons. insisting he does what he wants is a great way to build up resentment on the part of the other spouse.

[Tabris]

Okay, so what if your friend's boyfriend had sat her down and said this:

"Look, I know you want to enter this program. This is a huge deal for you, and you've talked a lot about it. But after thinking it over, I have a few reservations. The first is that you're going to only be able to work part-time during the program, and you'll be paying tuition. Overall I think you're going to end up losing about eighty thousand dollars in lost wages if you do this.

"And I'm thinking, you don't have eighty thousand to lose. Each of us doesn't have fourty thousand to lose. I think our relationship is going to go the distance, and if it does, I'm scared by the thought of beginning our marriage with a huge debt. Debt at the beginning of the marriage is going to impact our ability to buy a house and it's going to profoundly color our decision-making process as to when or if to have children and how many to have. I'm not sure the program is going to enhance your marketability enough to make up for it.

"But you've been thinking about this longer than I have, so I was wondering how you've reconciled these issues and what we might be able to do to reduce the impact of your lost income. The other thing, and it's kind of scary to me, is how much of your time will be invested in this program, and whether we'll be able to spend time together any longer. I know that's maybe silly of me, but I'm going to miss you if you're busy six nights a week."

THat would open the door to discussing compromises, ways of meeting his needs and her needs at the same time, etc. What you've made it sound like is that the boyfriend said, "Are you nuts? You're going to put us eighty grand in the hole! Who needs that? This program is useless. Don't do it."  Which, IMHO, seems like a move to keep her dependent on him and prevent her from being a fully realized person. (RUN! Run like the wind!)  Instead of saying, "I'm going to miss that program," she should be saying, "I'm going to miss him."

---

Now your situation sounds more like the above good conversation. "Sweetie, I remember when you wanted to become a firefighter, and I thought that was good and I supported your decision. But after being afraid several nights while you were driving the armored vehicle, I'm realizing how tough it is for me to think of you in a dangerous line of work. I'm scared for you. I don't know how I'd cope if something terrible happened to you. So I wanted to know if you still wanted to go for the firefighting thing, or if you were planning to work as an EMT for a few years. And if you had thought about the danger aspect of firefighting, and if you know of ways that other firefighters' wives cope. Because it's going to be hard for me to support you if I'm so scared for you."

Phrasing it in terms of your needs and his needs, and meeting both of them simultaneously.

It becomes an unreasonable expectation when one person feels entitled to the other's capitulation OR when one person is the only one making compromises. Or when one person is changing the ground rules of the game mid-stream. ie, I married you knowing that you love your extended family and want to visit them every weekend, but now I want to move you 2500 miles away from them.

[sparksals]

jimithing - I know you are worried about your DH wanting to become a fire fighter.  However, I want you to think long and hard about discouraging him from doing it.  These are your anxieties, not his.  If this is something that he has aspired to do, he could very well resent you suggesting he not do so because you think it's too dangerous.   You really need to think about the repercussions of whether he will resent you for putting your foot down on him pursuing this career path.

My husband has a very dangerous job.  He has fought in Iraq and I was worried sick.  He was a Border patrol Agent fighting illegal aliens, drug dealers, weapon smugglers and human traffickers.  Did I worry about him?  Absolutely.  But you know what?  He knows what he's doing.  He's highly trained and he knows what to do in dangerous situations.

Now, he's training for an even more dangerous job.  I worry everyday, but I wouldn't dream of forbidding him from living his dream because of my anxiety.  I would never want him to resent me for preventing him from doing something he has always wanted to.

Firefighters are highly trained.  They don't just walk onto the job and run into burning buildings.  They spend months learning how to protect themselves and be safe. 

As for reasonable expectations and not signing up for him to be a firefighter in your marriage, life takes major curveballs.  When I met my husband, I knew he was in the army and that he could possibly go to war.  He did and I was a basketcase.  I knew that he wanted to go into law enforcement after he got out of the army.  I knew that he wanted to join the Border patrol and he did.  We have moved many times for his career.  Then, he wanted to apply to the new federal agency which means another move for us.  I could have put my foot down, but I didn't because I just couldn't bring myself to hold him back from doing something that will advance his career. 

We worked the issue and I'm fine with it.  Did I expect to move so many times since we've been married?  No.  Did I expect him to want to move from the BP to another Federal agency? No.  This opportunity came up and upon discussing it together, we decided he would apply. 

There are many message boards for spouses of law enforcement and fire fighters.  I suggest before you put your foot down, that you do some research and talk to other wives in teh same situation.  Believe me, they all had your exact same feelings of stress and worry.

Yes, firefighting is a dangerous job.  But, the rewards are also beneficial.  Don't pooh pooh it just yet.  You first need to deal with your feelings of anxiety and not portray them onto your dh for his career choice. 

[jais]

of In the time that he was going to school he got a job working as an armored car driver.  I developed major anxiety about his job and something dangerous happening. I do not think that I can handle him being a firefighter.  I would be a nervous wreck and it scares me to death. He has obtained two EMT licenses and is working in the medical field, which he really enjoys doing.  He wants to go to paramedic school before the fire academy and I am trying to convince him to stop there and not go into the fire academy.

OT, but I understand this COMPLETELY.  BF is a dispatcher for an armored car company.  They work in an office that's basically on top of a vault and some odd things do happen.  Right now, he is waiting on 2 police departments that are doing background checks on him.  While I am proud of him for working so hard for his dream job, I'm SCARED!

[sparksals]

of In the time that he was going to school he got a job working as an armored car driver.  I developed major anxiety about his job and something dangerous happening. I do not think that I can handle him being a firefighter.  I would be a nervous wreck and it scares me to death. He has obtained two EMT licenses and is working in the medical field, which he really enjoys doing.  He wants to go to paramedic school before the fire academy and I am trying to convince him to stop there and not go into the fire academy.

OT, but I understand this COMPLETELY.  BF is a dispatcher for an armored car company.  They work in an office that's basically on top of a vault and some odd things do happen.  Right now, he is waiting on 2 police departments that are doing background checks on him.  While I am proud of him for working so hard for his dream job, I'm SCARED!

Your feelings are completely normal, Jais. 

[jimithing]

sparksals, I completely agree that it's unfair to force my expectations and worries onto him.  But at what point do you say that we are in this together, there are two people in this marriage, and both people's wants and desires are valid and justified?  I would never go into a situation without considering his feelings, which would heavily weigh on my decisions.  At what point do his dreams and goals become more important than mine, which is to have a safe, secure marriage where I am not constantly stressed and worried at every moment. 

I think that this needs to be compromised on.  I know that he really likes the medical aspect of the job.  I have not put my foot down as of yet, but I have made my feelings known to him.  I am supporting him to do something that he loves and he also wants to become a paramedic.  I have suggested that maybe he stick with that and forgo the fire academy.  We will see what happens.  He was supposed to start the fire academy this month, but he hasn't brought it up in months and he hasn't mentioned enrolling.  Of course, I haven't brought it up either, as I want to let sleeping dogs lie, if you will.

I have a cousin whose husband decided unexpectedly to go into the Sheriff's academy.  He gave up a very good paying job which forced them to move in with her parents. She is very resentful that no matter how much they, as a family, had to give up for him to follow his dreams, he basically chose his job and his wants and desires over his family, in essence.

Resentment is a two way street, and I think that this becomes very difficult to balance.  Thank you for your words and sharing your experiences with me.  I am not casting them aside, by any means.  It becomes very difficult to try to balance both partners wants and desires when the conflict, as I know you are aware. 

[cass2591]

All I have to add about your friend is that if if her BF of 6 months (actually, the length of their relationship is irrelevant) objects to her pursuing a graduate degree she seriously needs to re-evaluate the relationship. Shouldn't someone who has your best interests at heart encourage you to do what you want to do? We're not talking about a high risk occupation here.

I think the BF feels threatened and is using the money as an excuse.

[sparksals]

sparksals, I completely agree that it's unfair to force my expectations and worries onto him.  But at what point do you say that we are in this together, there are two people in this marriage, and both people's wants and desires are valid and justified?  I would never go into a situation without considering his feelings, which would heavily weigh on my decisions.  At what point do his dreams and goals become more important than mine, which is to have a safe, secure marriage where I am not constantly stressed and worried at every moment. 

I think that this needs to be compromised on.  I know that he really likes the medical aspect of the job.  I have not put my foot down as of yet, but I have made my feelings known to him.  I am supporting him to do something that he loves and he also wants to become a paramedic.  I have suggested that maybe he stick with that and forgo the fire academy.  We will see what happens.  He was supposed to start the fire academy this month, but he hasn't brought it up in months and he hasn't mentioned enrolling.  Of course, I haven't brought it up either, as I want to let sleeping dogs lie, if you will.

I have a cousin whose husband decided unexpectedly to go into the Sheriff's academy.  He gave up a very good paying job which forced them to move in with her parents. She is very resentful that no matter how much they, as a family, had to give up for him to follow his dreams, he basically chose his job and his wants and desires over his family, in essence.

Resentment is a two way street, and I think that this becomes very difficult to balance.  Thank you for your words and sharing your experiences with me.  I am not casting them aside, by any means.  It becomes very difficult to try to balance both partners wants and desires when the conflict, as I know you are aware. 

You're absolutely right that you trying to prevent him from resenting you if you go along with this will cause you to resent him!  It is definitely a balance and a decision that both must come to together and one that you can both live with.  When each person is on a total different end of the spectrum, where is the middle?  This is just one of the tough decisions that comes with marriage where the relationship must be protected at all costs and one must be willing to compromise in order to put the marriage first. 

You ask at what point do his dreams become more important than yours.  That is where compromise and effective communication come into play.  There's having a safe and secure marriage, then, there's the prospect of getting hit by a bus when you cross the street.  Then again, you both need to have dreams that are mutually beneficial to your marriage. 

I do suggest you do a bit of research and find some law enforcement and firefighter wives to talk to.  Believe me, your fears and apprehensions are completely normal.  Every wife has that twinge of fear.  I did.  I did alot of research and chatted with wives online in message boards and I was amazed that all my feelings were completely natural. 

What your cousin's husband did was wrong.  This isn't the type of decision that only one person in the marriage makes.  I can understand why she is resentful because he didn't take her feelings into consideration. 

From your posts, your husband doesn't strike me as the type who would do what your CIL did.  This would be a life altering decision, one that you have to make together and that you can both live with.  The question you have to ask yourself is will he be resentful of you if he feels the decision is one sided?  He has to ask himself the same question and then see if you two can strike a balance. 

It's not easy to say the least.  When DH applied to the Border Patrol, I had my reservations because of the dangers of the job.  The compromise we struck was that location was important.  I couldn't live in the middle of desert AZ in a small dustbowl town.  If we were offered such place, he would turn it down as it was important for me to live in a decent sized city.  I was able to let go of my fears so he could follow his dream and he compromised and was willing to turn down the job if we couldn't get a place where I would be happy living.  It was a joint decision and we were lucky to be offered Tucson.  He got to follow his dream and I got to continue being a city girl.  It would have been marriage suicide had we gone to a place where there was nothing for me.  It worked out for us. 

Yes, I do worry and now with his new position, I will continue to do so.  But, we were also placed in a major city where I know I will be happy.  There will be lots of alternatives for me, I will be closer to Canada and he can do what he wants to do career-wise.  It's a win-win situation that was established by taking both of our needs into consideration while both of us compromised.  Neither one of us feel resentful.

Is there a common ground that you can find similar to what dh and I established for ourselves?