Author Topic: When the camera shy feel left out  (Read 8242 times)

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bah12

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Re: When the camera shy feel left out
« Reply #60 on: February 22, 2013, 10:40:41 AM »
I think the key point here is that the SM is essentially asking for special treatment.    The couple are in no way required to oblige her snowflakiness.

Why should the couple have to go to the effort of consulting her to arrange a special photo shoot to go into the album?   If I were a relative, would I prefer to have a special photo taken and to approve it as a good shot of me to be used in the fancy album?  Yes, I would.  I'm not camera shy (I looove photos) but I do like to have good photos if possible.  I'd love it if the one in the book was a good shot.  So I'd probably be a little irritated if the person who makes a fuss gets to arrange a photo specially, while the rest of us just have any old photo selected.  I'd still be happy to be included, but it would seem they were being rewarded for their fussiness.    And of course it's unreasonable to expect the couple to go out of their way to get "special" approved photos of everybody to use.  That would turn a lovely, heartwarming idea into a massive undertaking.   It's a shame that SM's fussy camera shy behaviour has resulted in her exclusion, but as it clearly wasn't intentional on the part of the couple I don't think she has any right to complain.  Feel hurt, yes, but complain no.

I don't really think they need to go as far as arranging a special photo shoot, but I do think it would be considerate to at least ask her if she has any pictures, or if they could take some (assuming that it takes a while to put these albums together and that the parents will see SM between deciding to do it and giving it to her) so that they could include her.

For me, the key in this whole thing is that this album was a gift...for the SM.  She might be an SS about random candid pictures and she might have been out of line to complain about a gift, but it was still a gift for her.  She didn't intentionally leave herself out of anything.  The album was not a consideration at the time.  Had the parents stated they were taking pictures for an album and she refused to be in any of them, it would be different.  Had the parents created the album for themselves, it would also be different.  But, to decide that they were going to create an album and give it to SM as a gift, then not even consider that she might want to be included in it, is insensitive.  At the least, they should consider what enjoyment she would get out of the gift before deciding to give it.  It seems more that they just didn't care, and whether that's because she's a generally difficult person to begin with or they didn't want to go through the effort, is immaterial. 

TurtleDove

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Re: When the camera shy feel left out
« Reply #61 on: February 22, 2013, 10:48:51 AM »
I don't really think they need to go as far as arranging a special photo shoot, but I do think it would be considerate to at least ask her if she has any pictures, or if they could take some (assuming that it takes a while to put these albums together and that the parents will see SM between deciding to do it and giving it to her) so that they could include her.

For me, the key in this whole thing is that this album was a gift...for the SM.  She might be an SS about random candid pictures and she might have been out of line to complain about a gift, but it was still a gift for her.  She didn't intentionally leave herself out of anything.  The album was not a consideration at the time.  Had the parents stated they were taking pictures for an album and she refused to be in any of them, it would be different.  Had the parents created the album for themselves, it would also be different.  But, to decide that they were going to create an album and give it to SM as a gift, then not even consider that she might want to be included in it, is insensitive.  At the least, they should consider what enjoyment she would get out of the gift before deciding to give it.  It seems more that they just didn't care, and whether that's because she's a generally difficult person to begin with or they didn't want to go through the effort, is immaterial.

The bolded is what I think we are never going to agree on. The LW already did ask the SM to be in photos and the SM declined.  That is why there are no photos.  The SM actively asked not to have her photos either taken or saved.  And the gift was for the childs grandfather who is married to the SM.  Yes, the SM is one of the recipients, but it wasn't a gift created specifically and uniquely for her.

bah12

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Re: When the camera shy feel left out
« Reply #62 on: February 22, 2013, 11:21:03 AM »
I don't really think they need to go as far as arranging a special photo shoot, but I do think it would be considerate to at least ask her if she has any pictures, or if they could take some (assuming that it takes a while to put these albums together and that the parents will see SM between deciding to do it and giving it to her) so that they could include her.

For me, the key in this whole thing is that this album was a gift...for the SM.  She might be an SS about random candid pictures and she might have been out of line to complain about a gift, but it was still a gift for her.  She didn't intentionally leave herself out of anything.  The album was not a consideration at the time.  Had the parents stated they were taking pictures for an album and she refused to be in any of them, it would be different.  Had the parents created the album for themselves, it would also be different.  But, to decide that they were going to create an album and give it to SM as a gift, then not even consider that she might want to be included in it, is insensitive.  At the least, they should consider what enjoyment she would get out of the gift before deciding to give it.  It seems more that they just didn't care, and whether that's because she's a generally difficult person to begin with or they didn't want to go through the effort, is immaterial.

The bolded is what I think we are never going to agree on. The LW already did ask the SM to be in photos and the SM declined.  That is why there are no photos.  The SM actively asked not to have her photos either taken or saved.  And the gift was for the childs grandfather who is married to the SM.  Yes, the SM is one of the recipients, but it wasn't a gift created specifically and uniquely for her.

Yes it was...maybe not uniquely for her but specifically for all the grandparents...which includes her.  And the Grandfather was also upset that his wife wasn't included.  So, he didn't really get a whole lot of enjoyment out of the gift either.  SS or not, when you (general) give gifts, you should consider how those gifts will make the recipients feel.  And the parents didn't consider that.  It may not have been a purposeful slight, but when it came to giving this gift, they failed.   Yes, the SM is at fault that there weren't already pictures for them to choose from, but I think that the parents then needed to either ask for some so they could include her or consider a different gift all together...like maybe a simple framed photograph of the baby alone.

camlan

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Re: When the camera shy feel left out
« Reply #63 on: February 22, 2013, 11:23:08 AM »
I could make an album of pictures of my nieces and nephews right now. It would take less than 15 minutes--deciding which pictures to include would take the majority of that time.

So I can see this couple deciding to make the album, choosing the pictures and realizing that there are no pictures of SGM with the baby. They think about it, and decide that since SGM has chosen to delete all the pictures they have ever taken of her with the baby, that she probably won't care if there are no pictures of her with the baby in the album, and just moving on to finish the project. No time, really, for contacting the SGM and asking for special pictures to be taken. The whole thing, from idea to execution, could have taken less than an hour.

At least, that would be my thought process. That SGM was so picky about her pictures, and since the album was going to several people, not just SGM and GF, that she probably wouldn't want her picture in the album anyway, because so many people could potentially see her pictures, and since there were some pictures of the baby with his/her grandfather, that should be enough to keep that set of grandparents happy.

When the step-grandmother complained, I'd explain my thinking, express my sorrow that her feelings were hurt, tell her it was not intentional, and promise to take more pictures of her with the baby in the future, in case I made another album.

And then I'd expect the issue to die out. If either SGM or GF continued to bring the subject up, I'd get annoyed. SGM made her bed, by deleting all her pictures. She doesn't get to guilt trip me for the consequences of her own actions. I'd defend my actions once, "Since SGM deletes every picture I've taken of her with the baby, it is a logical conclusion that she does not want anyone to have or see such a picture," and then I'd drop the subject. And refuse to engage any further discussion about it.

I really don't think the parents of the baby did anything wrong. All the SGM's actions would have led them to think that the SGM didn't want any pictures of her with the baby, and certainly, if she was that camera shy, would not want her picture in an album that was given to a number of other people. I think the SGM and GF are more in the wrong by pursuing the issue and not letting it drop, once they heard the couple's explanation.
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TurtleDove

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Re: When the camera shy feel left out
« Reply #64 on: February 22, 2013, 11:25:04 AM »
Yes it was...maybe not uniquely for her but specifically for all the grandparents...which includes her.  And the Grandfather was also upset that his wife wasn't included.  So, he didn't really get a whole lot of enjoyment out of the gift either.  SS or not, when you (general) give gifts, you should consider how those gifts will make the recipients feel.  And the parents didn't consider that.  It may not have been a purposeful slight, but when it came to giving this gift, they failed.   Yes, the SM is at fault that there weren't already pictures for them to choose from, but I think that the parents then needed to either ask for some so they could include her or consider a different gift all together...like maybe a simple framed photograph of the baby alone.

This is where we disagree.  The way I see it, the parents DID consider what the SM wanted.  She said she didn't want her photo taken/saved.  She apparently later changed her mind, but I think the parents respected her stated wishes and had no reason to question whether those wishes changed. 


johelenc1

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Re: When the camera shy feel left out
« Reply #65 on: February 22, 2013, 11:36:09 AM »
I think step-mother needs to realize she can't have it both ways.  However, I would have found "some" picture of step-mother, however awful - even if it wasn't with the granddaughter - to include in the book.  I would have done this more for the child's sake than the SM.  The child will probably enjoy the book in the future and should have a picture of all her grandparents.

I do strongly believe however that if they had put a picture of the SM in the book, she would have whined and complained about how awful it was.


TurtleDove

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Re: When the camera shy feel left out
« Reply #66 on: February 22, 2013, 11:47:04 AM »
I make a book for my daughter's grandparents and cousins every year.  None of the grandparents or cousins are in the book.  It is a book about my daughter.  It is very much enjoyed by the recipients even though there are no photos of them in it.  I enjoy photos of people I love also, even though I am not in the photos. 

bah12

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Re: When the camera shy feel left out
« Reply #67 on: February 22, 2013, 01:38:07 PM »
I make a book for my daughter's grandparents and cousins every year.  None of the grandparents or cousins are in the book.  It is a book about my daughter.  It is very much enjoyed by the recipients even though there are no photos of them in it.  I enjoy photos of people I love also, even though I am not in the photos.

I think it's fine if none of them are in...or even if some of them are in it randomly.  But, if you left out one cousin and one cousin only and then gave that book as a gift, I wouldn't blame the cousin at all for feeling left out.


Knitterly

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Re: When the camera shy feel left out
« Reply #68 on: February 22, 2013, 01:49:04 PM »
I make a book for my daughter's grandparents and cousins every year.  None of the grandparents or cousins are in the book.  It is a book about my daughter.  It is very much enjoyed by the recipients even though there are no photos of them in it.  I enjoy photos of people I love also, even though I am not in the photos.

I think it's fine if none of them are in...or even if some of them are in it randomly.  But, if you left out one cousin and one cousin only and then gave that book as a gift, I wouldn't blame the cousin at all for feeling left out.

Perhaps not, but if the cousin is overly camera shy and deletes all the pictures you take of them because they dislike them, they hardly have a foot to stand on in feeling left out.

Feelings are feelings and often do not respond to logic.  But the fact remains that if you have no pictures, you have no pictures.

If the pictures are from birth to 1 year and you start putting the book together at 1 year and a month, then the cousin is simply out of luck.  Perhaps they did not make time to visit.  Perhaps they refused to have their picture taken when they did.  You cannot turn back time and to take pictures of a moment that is gone.

We all have rights to our feelings.  Those feelings, though, are not always reasonable.

Does the stepmother feel left out?  Absolutely!  Is it reasonable given the circumstances of her difficulty in the pictures?  Not at all.

bah12

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Re: When the camera shy feel left out
« Reply #69 on: February 22, 2013, 02:34:25 PM »
I make a book for my daughter's grandparents and cousins every year.  None of the grandparents or cousins are in the book.  It is a book about my daughter.  It is very much enjoyed by the recipients even though there are no photos of them in it.  I enjoy photos of people I love also, even though I am not in the photos.

I think it's fine if none of them are in...or even if some of them are in it randomly.  But, if you left out one cousin and one cousin only and then gave that book as a gift, I wouldn't blame the cousin at all for feeling left out.

Perhaps not, but if the cousin is overly camera shy and deletes all the pictures you take of them because they dislike them, they hardly have a foot to stand on in feeling left out.

Feelings are feelings and often do not respond to logic.  But the fact remains that if you have no pictures, you have no pictures.

If the pictures are from birth to 1 year and you start putting the book together at 1 year and a month, then the cousin is simply out of luck.  Perhaps they did not make time to visit.  Perhaps they refused to have their picture taken when they did.  You cannot turn back time and to take pictures of a moment that is gone.

We all have rights to our feelings.  Those feelings, though, are not always reasonable.

Does the stepmother feel left out?  Absolutely!  Is it reasonable given the circumstances of her difficulty in the pictures?  Not at all.

Ok...then perhaps a photo album full of family photos that include everyone but the "camera shy" one is not the best idea. 

If you (general) want a photo album about your baby, then make one.  But when you decide to make a photo album about anyone and give it as a gift, it is only thoughtful (IMO) if the photo album is also about the person it is actually for.  Not that they have to be in pictures to enjoy them, but those memories should connect somehow.  Love of a baby or the reminder of moments with the baby.  This particular photo albom included the baby with grandparents and great-grandparents.  It's an awesome idea on the surface.  But, if it's about the baby and grandparent relationship, then leaving out one grandparent isn't cool (even if that grandparent is really difficult about candid pictures that were taken without an album in mind).

Not only do I think she has the right to feel left out, I think it's justified.  To make it worse, the parents don't even want to say "Hey, I'm sorry.  I didn't do it on purpose, I just thought that you didn't like being in pictures and didn't have one of you.  I'll let you know next time." 

In other words, I can forgive the exclusion given the circumstances, but not when they continue to feel justified to 'teach SM a lesson' about pictures (my words, not theirs).  If they didn't want to take the trouble to ask for a picture befor hand (which I think is the best thing to do), the least they can do validate her feelings, give an explanation, and try to make it good on the next album.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2013, 02:46:04 PM by bah12 »

TurtleDove

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Re: When the camera shy feel left out
« Reply #70 on: February 22, 2013, 02:39:37 PM »
Ok...then perhaps a photo album full of family photos that include everyone but the "camera shy" one is not the best idea. 


I think it's a great idea!  Photo albums and framed photos are among my favorite gifts to give and receive, and their value to me increases as time goes on.  I think it would be sad if the LW stopped doing the photo books becasue the SM complained.

Venus193

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Re: When the camera shy feel left out
« Reply #71 on: February 22, 2013, 03:16:30 PM »
I could make an album of pictures of my nieces and nephews right now. It would take less than 15 minutes--deciding which pictures to include would take the majority of that time.

So I can see this couple deciding to make the album, choosing the pictures and realizing that there are no pictures of SGM with the baby. They think about it, and decide that since SGM has chosen to delete all the pictures they have ever taken of her with the baby, that she probably won't care if there are no pictures of her with the baby in the album, and just moving on to finish the project. No time, really, for contacting the SGM and asking for special pictures to be taken. The whole thing, from idea to execution, could have taken less than an hour.

At least, that would be my thought process. That SGM was so picky about her pictures, and since the album was going to several people, not just SGM and GF, that she probably wouldn't want her picture in the album anyway, because so many people could potentially see her pictures, and since there were some pictures of the baby with his/her grandfather, that should be enough to keep that set of grandparents happy.

When the step-grandmother complained, I'd explain my thinking, express my sorrow that her feelings were hurt, tell her it was not intentional, and promise to take more pictures of her with the baby in the future, in case I made another album.

And then I'd expect the issue to die out. If either SGM or GF continued to bring the subject up, I'd get annoyed. SGM made her bed, by deleting all her pictures. She doesn't get to guilt trip me for the consequences of her own actions. I'd defend my actions once, "Since SGM deletes every picture I've taken of her with the baby, it is a logical conclusion that she does not want anyone to have or see such a picture," and then I'd drop the subject. And refuse to engage any further discussion about it.

I really don't think the parents of the baby did anything wrong. All the SGM's actions would have led them to think that the SGM didn't want any pictures of her with the baby, and certainly, if she was that camera shy, would not want her picture in an album that was given to a number of other people. I think the SGM and GF are more in the wrong by pursuing the issue and not letting it drop, once they heard the couple's explanation.

Your assumption is completely reasonable; I totally agree.  Also with jolenc's comment that she can't have it both ways.

Miss Unleaded

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Re: When the camera shy feel left out
« Reply #72 on: February 22, 2013, 03:41:21 PM »
Actions have consequences.  If I were the stepmother, I would feel hurt, but i would also recognize that the situation was of my own making.    I don't think the couple were rude assuming they at least attempted to find a photo in their collection.

Personally I have no patience for the camera shy (despite being terribly un photogenic myself!) and frequently find camera shy behavior to actually and ironically be attention seeking.  I will always respect their wishes, but I'm not going to go out of my way to pander to them.

If only more camera wielding people were like this, I would be happy.  Honestly, I dislike having my photo taken when I am trying to relax and have fun, and I hate even more the scene that often accompanies when the person with the camera won't respect 'no'.  I would not at all be unhappy if there was nary a single family album with my picture in it.

The step mother in this letter was completely unreasonable.  She can't have it both ways.  The advice was way off, in my opinion.

mmswm

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Re: When the camera shy feel left out
« Reply #73 on: February 22, 2013, 04:00:11 PM »
I hate having my picture taken, and might even be a bit SS about avoiding the camera.

Occasionally, when I look through photo albums I get a bit sad that there are no pictures of me.

Then I put on my big girl panties and remind myself that the reason there are no pictures of me is because I actively avoided having my picture taken.  Too bad for me.  I made a choice, I have to live with the consequences.

I have no sympathy for the SM. 
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EllenS

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Re: When the camera shy feel left out
« Reply #74 on: February 22, 2013, 05:09:13 PM »
This topic reminded me of a lovely article by Allison Tate that went viral last year - "The Mom Stays in the Picture".

"When I look at pictures of my own mother, I don't look at cellulite or hair debacles. I just see her -- her kind eyes, her open-mouthed, joyful smile, her familiar clothes. That's the mother I remember. My mother's body is the vessel that carries all the memories of my childhood. I always loved that her stomach was soft, her skin freckled, her fingers long. I didn't care that she didn't look like a model. She was my mama.

So when all is said and done, if I can't do it for myself, I want to do it for my kids. I want to be in the picture, to give them that visual memory of me. I want them to see how much I am here, how my body looks wrapped around them in a hug, how loved they are."

This article made me cry and I now have all kinds of pictures of me looking disheveled but happy.  My mom died 3 years ago and she was always miserable having her picture taken.  I do have 2 or 3 photos of her genuinely smiling.  She did not smile much the last 10 years of her life, and she wasted away so much the last month she was nearly unrecognizable.  Those 2 or 3 photos are unbelievably precious, because it is hard for me to remember her being happy.

The article is here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/allison-tate/mom-pictures-with-kids_b_1926073.html
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