Author Topic: Third (but also first) baby shower  (Read 13768 times)

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snowdragon

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Re: Third (but also first) baby shower
« Reply #75 on: March 20, 2013, 09:09:27 PM »
I think that if we as a society want dads to be more involved parents, then we have to stop shutting them out of the celebrations as though they don't matter, which is pretty much, to me, what the OP wants to do.  It's the father's first baby; why is that not worthy of the same celebration a first-time mother gets?

That's exactly what I was thinking. People are saying that the second shower is inappropriate because showers are for welcoming a woman into motherhood, and the OP's SIL is already a mother. But the OP's brother isn't yet a father, so why shouldn't he get a celebration to welcome him into fatherhood (and celebrate the birth of a new baby)?

I think that unless the OP has some indication that this is just a gift-grab, rather than a genuine expression of love and excitement at the impending birth of a new member of the family, she should just let it go.


Why should he....showers have always been to celebrate the woman's transition into motherhood. Given by women to celebrate another women's joining the ranks of motherhood. If men want a celebration of fatherhood...why can't tehy come up with their own stuff?  Honestly - the whole "but dads don't get anything " sounds like a 3 year old whining "where's my present?" when they see someone else get something.

Because it's his child too? Maybe it's not 100% etiquettely correct, but I guess I just don't see what's so wrong about the family celebrating the dad's first baby. It seems to me that people are getting so caught up in the "but Miss Manners says anything but a first shower is wrong!" that they're unwilling to see that it may not be a one size fits all kind of thing. I think that this is the sort of situation where it's better to ignore the strict letter of the etiquette law and just be happy and celebrate the baby's impending arrival. Unless, as I said, there is clear reason to believe that this is solely a gift grab, but I don't get that impression from what the OP has said.

And there are many ways to celebrate a birth that don't carry the requirement of a gift. Just because you have a kid does not mean you deserve gifts.

snowdragon

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Re: Third (but also first) baby shower
« Reply #76 on: March 20, 2013, 09:11:38 PM »
I think that if we as a society want dads to be more involved parents, then we have to stop shutting them out of the celebrations as though they don't matter, which is pretty much, to me, what the OP wants to do.  It's the father's first baby; why is that not worthy of the same celebration a first-time mother gets?

That's exactly what I was thinking. People are saying that the second shower is inappropriate because showers are for welcoming a woman into motherhood, and the OP's SIL is already a mother. But the OP's brother isn't yet a father, so why shouldn't he get a celebration to welcome him into fatherhood (and celebrate the birth of a new baby)?

I think that unless the OP has some indication that this is just a gift-grab, rather than a genuine expression of love and excitement at the impending birth of a new member of the family, she should just let it go.


Why should he....showers have always been to celebrate the woman's transition into motherhood. Given by women to celebrate another women's joining the ranks of motherhood. If men want a celebration of fatherhood...why can't tehy come up with their own stuff?  Honestly - the whole "but dads don't get anything " sounds like a 3 year old whining "where's my present?" when they see someone else get something.
     
 

Voting was always for men - until it wasn't.  We learn, we grow, we change.  Do we really think cigars and drinking is more mature than a party that centers around the transition into parenthood?

 That drinking and smoking event does not carry with it the expectation and obligation of gifts.   If getting stuff is the only way a birth can be celebrated, well, that's pretty immature in my mind.

Roe

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Re: Third (but also first) baby shower
« Reply #77 on: March 20, 2013, 09:14:59 PM »

Wow! I guess this does explain a lot of our differences in opinion as I can safely say that NONE of the above is something I have run into with my friends and family.  Guess I am more blessed than I knew!

Me too!  I've never come across the attitudes that SnowDragon has. Thank God!  I suppose that explains why I don't see the big deal.  But I have to assume that Snowdragon's experience isn't the norm.  I hope so anyway.  :D 

rose red

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Re: Third (but also first) baby shower
« Reply #78 on: March 20, 2013, 09:30:32 PM »

Wow! I guess this does explain a lot of our differences in opinion as I can safely say that NONE of the above is something I have run into with my friends and family.  Guess I am more blessed than I knew!

Me too!  I've never come across the attitudes that SnowDragon has. Thank God!  I suppose that explains why I don't see the big deal.  But I have to assume that Snowdragon's experience isn't the norm.  I hope so anyway.  :D

It's not the norm with people in my life.  There's etiquette and then there's rigidness.  Situations should be case by case, not one rule fits all.

Sharnita

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Re: Third (but also first) baby shower
« Reply #79 on: March 20, 2013, 09:40:21 PM »
I think that if we as a society want dads to be more involved parents, then we have to stop shutting them out of the celebrations as though they don't matter, which is pretty much, to me, what the OP wants to do.  It's the father's first baby; why is that not worthy of the same celebration a first-time mother gets?

That's exactly what I was thinking. People are saying that the second shower is inappropriate because showers are for welcoming a woman into motherhood, and the OP's SIL is already a mother. But the OP's brother isn't yet a father, so why shouldn't he get a celebration to welcome him into fatherhood (and celebrate the birth of a new baby)?

I think that unless the OP has some indication that this is just a gift-grab, rather than a genuine expression of love and excitement at the impending birth of a new member of the family, she should just let it go.


Why should he....showers have always been to celebrate the woman's transition into motherhood. Given by women to celebrate another women's joining the ranks of motherhood. If men want a celebration of fatherhood...why can't tehy come up with their own stuff?  Honestly - the whole "but dads don't get anything " sounds like a 3 year old whining "where's my present?" when they see someone else get something.
     
 

Voting was always for men - until it wasn't.  We learn, we grow, we change.  Do we really think cigars and drinking is more mature than a party that centers around the transition into parenthood?

 That drinking and smoking event does not carry with it the expectation and obligation of gifts.   If getting stuff is the only way a birth can be celebrated, well, that's pretty immature in my mind.

So why not take a stand against showers for anyone ever?  I don't get the idea that men never get gifts while women do (at least the first baby). 

stargazer

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Re: Third (but also first) baby shower
« Reply #80 on: March 20, 2013, 09:43:49 PM »

Wow! I guess this does explain a lot of our differences in opinion as I can safely say that NONE of the above is something I have run into with my friends and family.  Guess I am more blessed than I knew!

Me too!  I've never come across the attitudes that SnowDragon has. Thank God!  I suppose that explains why I don't see the big deal.  But I have to assume that Snowdragon's experience isn't the norm.  I hope so anyway.  :D

It's not the norm with people in my life.  There's etiquette and then there's rigidness.  Situations should be case by case, not one rule fits all.

Not the norm with people I know either.  I wouldn't want to be around people that rigid.

snowdragon

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Re: Third (but also first) baby shower
« Reply #81 on: March 20, 2013, 09:48:03 PM »
I think that if we as a society want dads to be more involved parents, then we have to stop shutting them out of the celebrations as though they don't matter, which is pretty much, to me, what the OP wants to do.  It's the father's first baby; why is that not worthy of the same celebration a first-time mother gets?

That's exactly what I was thinking. People are saying that the second shower is inappropriate because showers are for welcoming a woman into motherhood, and the OP's SIL is already a mother. But the OP's brother isn't yet a father, so why shouldn't he get a celebration to welcome him into fatherhood (and celebrate the birth of a new baby)?

I think that unless the OP has some indication that this is just a gift-grab, rather than a genuine expression of love and excitement at the impending birth of a new member of the family, she should just let it go.


Why should he....showers have always been to celebrate the woman's transition into motherhood. Given by women to celebrate another women's joining the ranks of motherhood. If men want a celebration of fatherhood...why can't tehy come up with their own stuff?  Honestly - the whole "but dads don't get anything " sounds like a 3 year old whining "where's my present?" when they see someone else get something.
     
 

Voting was always for men - until it wasn't.  We learn, we grow, we change.  Do we really think cigars and drinking is more mature than a party that centers around the transition into parenthood?

 That drinking and smoking event does not carry with it the expectation and obligation of gifts.   If getting stuff is the only way a birth can be celebrated, well, that's pretty immature in my mind.

So why not take a stand against showers for anyone ever?  I don't get the idea that men never get gifts while women do (at least the first baby).

Tradition that is a rite of passage, connection with women that have done this for generations.  Men - not so much. Men have their own traditions.  Women have theirs.  I don't think much of the excuse that men need to be gifted because their wives are have having kids. When men can give birth *AND* the shower is all male  I'll revisit the idea of a shower for the father's transition - until then- showers for the first child a woman has, ONLY. 
  Anything more and my opinion of the person changes.

Aeris

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Re: Third (but also first) baby shower
« Reply #82 on: March 20, 2013, 10:04:47 PM »
I think that if we as a society want dads to be more involved parents, then we have to stop shutting them out of the celebrations as though they don't matter, which is pretty much, to me, what the OP wants to do.  It's the father's first baby; why is that not worthy of the same celebration a first-time mother gets?

That's exactly what I was thinking. People are saying that the second shower is inappropriate because showers are for welcoming a woman into motherhood, and the OP's SIL is already a mother. But the OP's brother isn't yet a father, so why shouldn't he get a celebration to welcome him into fatherhood (and celebrate the birth of a new baby)?

I think that unless the OP has some indication that this is just a gift-grab, rather than a genuine expression of love and excitement at the impending birth of a new member of the family, she should just let it go.


Why should he....showers have always been to celebrate the woman's transition into motherhood. Given by women to celebrate another women's joining the ranks of motherhood. If men want a celebration of fatherhood...why can't tehy come up with their own stuff?  Honestly - the whole "but dads don't get anything " sounds like a 3 year old whining "where's my present?" when they see someone else get something.
     
 

Voting was always for men - until it wasn't.  We learn, we grow, we change.  Do we really think cigars and drinking is more mature than a party that centers around the transition into parenthood?

 That drinking and smoking event does not carry with it the expectation and obligation of gifts.   If getting stuff is the only way a birth can be celebrated, well, that's pretty immature in my mind.

So why not take a stand against showers for anyone ever?  I don't get the idea that men never get gifts while women do (at least the first baby).

Tradition that is a rite of passage, connection with women that have done this for generations.  Men - not so much. Men have their own traditions.  Women have theirs.  I don't think much of the excuse that men need to be gifted because their wives are have having kids. When men can give birth *AND* the shower is all male  I'll revisit the idea of a shower for the father's transition - until then- showers for the first child a woman has, ONLY. 
  Anything more and my opinion of the person changes.

So, women are never allowed to do 'traditionally male' things, and men are never allowed to do 'traditionally female' things? Very interesting, if antiquated and anti-feminist, viewpoint you have there.

I suppose it's just absolutely unforgivable for women to have bachelorette parties as well, isn't it? After all, traditionally it was just a bachelor party for men.

And couple's co-ed wedding showers are right out - no men should have to be recruited to fund that. That's not how it was traditionally.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 10:06:21 PM by Aeris »

Sharnita

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Re: Third (but also first) baby shower
« Reply #83 on: March 20, 2013, 10:09:06 PM »
And that is the flipside of the phrase many people find maddening "thier dad is babysitting".   If a dad isn't entitled to be treated as a parent in the manner a mom is, it is no wonder they (and sosciety) frequently fail to see themselves that way.

(And does that mean women who can't give birth and are adopting don't qualify for a shower?)

snowdragon

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Re: Third (but also first) baby shower
« Reply #84 on: March 20, 2013, 10:15:06 PM »
And that is the flipside of the phrase many people find maddening "thier dad is babysitting".   If a dad isn't entitled to be treated as a parent in the manner a mom is, it is no wonder they (and sosciety) frequently fail to see themselves that way.

(And does that mean women who can't give birth and are adopting don't qualify for a shower?)


Oh, please.  If getting gifts is what makes a dad be a parent, it's a pretty poor person he is.  Frankly I see all of these scenario's as just an excuse to get more stuff out of friends and family.

And no I don't think bachelorette  parties are appropriate. 

And no it doesn't mean women who adopt can't have showers, some woman gave birth to that kid, so as long as it's one per woman per transition there are no issues.
 

Sharnita

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Re: Third (but also first) baby shower
« Reply #85 on: March 20, 2013, 10:18:07 PM »
And that is the flipside of the phrase many people find maddening "thier dad is babysitting".   If a dad isn't entitled to be treated as a parent in the manner a mom is, it is no wonder they (and sosciety) frequently fail to see themselves that way.

(And does that mean women who can't give birth and are adopting don't qualify for a shower?)


Oh, please.  If getting gifts is what makes a dad be a parent, it's a pretty poor person he is.  Frankly I see all of these scenario's as just an excuse to get more stuff out of friends and family.

And no I don't think bachelorette  parties are appropriate. 

And no it doesn't mean women who adopt can't have showers, some woman gave birth to that kid, so as long as it's one per woman per transition there are no issues.

Who said getting gifts makes a dad a parent.  You are then one who seems to deem the dad a lesser paren than the mom, though.  ANd sisnce you count his inability to give birth as a significant aspect of that, it seems important to you.

Aeris

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Re: Third (but also first) baby shower
« Reply #86 on: March 20, 2013, 10:19:16 PM »
And that is the flipside of the phrase many people find maddening "thier dad is babysitting".   If a dad isn't entitled to be treated as a parent in the manner a mom is, it is no wonder they (and sosciety) frequently fail to see themselves that way.

(And does that mean women who can't give birth and are adopting don't qualify for a shower?)


Oh, please.  If getting gifts is what makes a dad be a parent, it's a pretty poor person he is.  Frankly I see all of these scenario's as just an excuse to get more stuff out of friends and family.

And no I don't think bachelorette  parties are appropriate. 

And no it doesn't mean women who adopt can't have showers, some woman gave birth to that kid, so as long as it's one per woman per transition there are no issues.

Ah ha, but what if a woman gives birth to TWO siblings, born a few years apart. Both of these siblings are adopted by different, unrelated women (as their first child each). BOTH of those women are given showers for their new adopted child. But that means it's two showers being given when only one woman gave birth!

Of course that is ridiculous. Because what is being celebrated is not the physical birth, but rather 'the transition to parenthood'. Which fathers experience as well as mothers.

And I just have to clarify - Are you saying that bachelorette parties are totally inappropriate, but bachelor parties are totally fine? Because I find that view absolutely fascinating. However do you justify it?

ETA: And what about joint bachelor/bachelorettes? Is that ok because she's just tagging along on the 'proper' event of a bachelor party? Or still atrocious because how dare a woman be celebrated in that manner? And what about co-ed wedding showers?
« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 10:22:48 PM by Aeris »

Hmmmmm

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Re: Third (but also first) baby shower
« Reply #87 on: March 20, 2013, 10:28:53 PM »
I think that if we as a society want dads to be more involved parents, then we have to stop shutting them out of the celebrations as though they don't matter, which is pretty much, to me, what the OP wants to do.  It's the father's first baby; why is that not worthy of the same celebration a first-time mother gets?

Wow, that is a pretty big leap.  There is no indication in the OP that the father of the child was even invited to the shower or planned to attend.

Your post implies that any baby shower should now be co-ed and if not, the host/hostesses are trying to reduce the father's role in the new babies life.  That's like saying that having a bridal shower for the bride only is trying to reduce the grooms role in the marriage.

While there may be no indication that the father was invited, is there an indication that he is not?  Afterall, it's his mother that's hosting and his family that is invited.
 
snip

The main point of my post was that  the dubeabides implied that any shower without the future fathers attendence excludes him from the babies life, not to debate whether the father was invited or not.

But to your point, I'm hosting baby shower for my nephew's wife. It will mostly be for the father's family. He chose to not have a co-ed shower therefore the shower's guest of honor is the mother. So the idea that within the OP that the father is not attending even though being hosted by his family is not unheard of.

sammycat

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Re: Third (but also first) baby shower
« Reply #88 on: March 20, 2013, 11:18:36 PM »
In my circle people expect gifts for babies for the following occassions
1) shower - and no one better be so crass as to show up to a shower with out a gift, or they be laughed at behind their back for the rest of their lives. a single pack of wipes, like someone suggested....would be little better.

2) hospital  visit - gift cards are ok for this

3) baptism - money is expected for this - and usually the amount expected is $50 to $100 +

4) first birthday - and many people think these should be big ticket things that the kid is lacking, new car seat, toddler bed, or money so the parents can pick out what they want the kid to have.

Wow.  Thank heavens I don't mix in those circles.  Those expectations are ridiculous.

I'd be mortified if anyone spent beyond $15 on a present for anyone in my family, nor would I spend beyond $20 on someone else. (Exception: my mother or nieces, and that's because I/we want to, not because I'm/we're expected to). I very rarely give cash or gift cards, and if anyone is expecting me to give them $100 cash for a baptism or a new bed for their toddler, then they're going to very disappointed.

thedudeabides

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Re: Third (but also first) baby shower
« Reply #89 on: March 20, 2013, 11:29:53 PM »
Actually, my biggest issue is with attitudes like snowdragon's, which pretty rigidly only celebrate parenthood for mothers.

I have no problem with men who don't want to attend showers.  I don't have a problem with women-only showers.  I just think that if we're moving as a society toward expecting fathers  to be fathers, then they deserve the opportunity to choose whether they'd like to be celebrated as new parents and not dismissed out of hand as not wanting to be part of a shower just because they're guys or because none of the guys in one person's social circle are interested in doing so.  Not all women are interested in showers of any kind; men are no different.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 11:35:52 PM by thedudeabides »