Author Topic: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**  (Read 34126 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

LeveeWoman

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4146
Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
« Reply #165 on: March 27, 2013, 10:17:15 PM »
Joraemi's daughter has not done anything to AG. To the contrary, AG has intruded on her time and space, has trod upon several boundaries. By giving in and allowing AG to, once again, behave inappropriately, Joraemi's daughter will be sanctioning that behavior, and she will allow her prom to be about AG instead of about her own enjoyment.

But AG hasn't DONE anything yet.  Several of us have said that if and when she does -- at the prom -- that is the time for the OP's daughter to do something about it.  Not pre-emptively, because that would be presumptuous.  The OP has said the pre-prom activities are not going to be a problem.

Yes, she has done something. AG tried to glue herself to Joraemi's daughter at the homecoming dance and chased after her when she tried to get away, she's tried to get her to let her cheat off of her, and she already has tried to horn in on her experience for the prom.

History is a good indicator of future behavior.

LifeOnPluto

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 6499
    • Blog
Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
« Reply #166 on: March 27, 2013, 10:35:31 PM »
Personally, I think the OP's daughter would have fonder memories of The Prom if she didn't carry with her the memory of how she and her friends actively worked to exclude one poor girl who was desperate to find a group to hang with.  That's just kind of how I feel about it.  The years go by and I know that I, personally, have regrets about how I treated some people when I was that age.  I wish I didn't have to live with that.

I agree - to a point. Which is why I stated in my previous post that it would be a kindness for DD's group to allow this girl to dance with them, make small talk with her, etc.

BUT - and this is an important but - a key factor is how willing DD's friends are, to "step up to the plate" and interact with AG. Because it sounds like at Homecoming, the other girls didn't run any interference. They were more than happy for the OP's DD to shoulder the entire burden of "babysitting" AG.

If DD's friends don't want anything to do with AG at the Prom, I can see a repeat of Homecoming occurring, where AG latches onto DD, because DD is the only one kind enough to talk with her. Conversely, if the rest of the group takes a turn at interacting with AG, it reduces the chances of AG latching onto one single person, and enhances the chances of everybody having a great time.

If the rest of the group are not remotely interested in hanging out with AG on the night, I do think AG needs to be gently told, beforehand. This isn't about delivering a "pre-emptive strike". It's about giving AG the information she needs, so she can decide whether or not she wants to attend the Prom.


WillyNilly

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 7490
  • Mmmmm, food
    • The World as I Taste It
Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
« Reply #167 on: March 27, 2013, 10:44:30 PM »
I don't know any teenager - then or now - that would invite someone who wasn't their friend to be apart of their group at prom just to be nice.   Ok, I'm sure that somewhere, some selfless teen as done so, but really, it's not something that happens.  Nor, frankly, should it.

Prom is certainly a rite of passage of high school.  BUT, it is not a RIGHT.  One does not have to go to prom.  Most kids want to, but that doesn't mean they get to.  The cost may be too much, one may not have a date, one may not have any friends, and/or one may not want to go completely alone.  All that is sad, but, honestly, just too bad.

Where I grew up, the prom was for juniors and seniors.  So, potentially, you could go both years.  And, actually, since a junior or senior could take anyone, you could potentially go 4 or 5 years to the prom.   I, oddly enough since I was generally a bit of a misfit, went to several proms.  I went to another school's prom as a date when I was a freshman.  I went to my junior prom with a long-time family friend.  I went to a another school's prom with a good friend our senior year and to my own senior prom alone.  I did go to another senior prom with a guy who liked me.  That was my "good deed".  I went with him so he could go to his prom.  However, nice as I was, I would have never taken someone I didn't like to my own prom just to be nice to them.  I don't know anyone who would have.

Also observed at these 5 proms I attended, it was nothing like the group love mixer some posters are described.   There was generally fairly little mixing between groups.  You hung out with the group you came with or your closest friends that you met up with after dinner.  (Dinner was separate and generally done as a pair or as a double date).  You may say hello to others or chat briefly but in general everyone was enjoying being with their own crowd.  Frankly, there really wasn't any room for a lone prom goer to insert herself into any given group.  (When I went by myself, I didn't even try.  I respected my friends with their dates too much.  I just wanted to go for a short time.)

I don't see any reason why the OP's DD needs to invite AG to crash her party, either directly or indirectly. Sure, it's sad AG may not go to prom, but that is very much not the OP's DD's problem.

^ Seriously, this. Just because everyone is at prom, doesn't mean there all together with one another. Prom is like a high school micro-organism night club. Sure hundreds of people are there, dressed up, out for a nice night, ready to dance, but they aren't necessarily interested in, nor should they be expected to, socialize with everyone there. Some people like to flutter around from group to group and sometimes its works, others like to stick together in their own little pack, and that works too.


But AG hasn't DONE anything yet...

I honestly don't know where you are getting this from. Seriously.  How can you say AG hasn't done anything yet when AG in no uncertain terms told DD that she (AG) would be attending prom with DD, AG1 and AG2?  Does that not count as something?  To me clearly stated intent, built upon concrete past history absolutely is something: its clearly stated intent.  And that's what this thread is about: how does DD counter AG's intent with DD's own intent.

kareng57

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 12252
Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
« Reply #168 on: March 27, 2013, 10:50:05 PM »
Thinking back on my own school days, I'm honestly getting confused about DD's social obligations to AG. I'm picturing that when AG strolls up to DD and her friends, DD feels obligated to include AG in the conversation, to make extensive replies to her comments, etc.. And I'm wondering if this gives the impression of friendliness and inclusion to AG, when that's not really what DD wants to convey.

Would it be rude if DD and her friends did not make an effort to include AG in the conversation, even if she was standing right there? (having joined them of her own accord) If AG said something, would it be rude for the others to be like, "Oh. Hmm," then go back to their own conversation?

I ask because I feel like this was considered the "nice" way of rejecting someone when I was in school, and it seemed to be fairly effective. But, I'm having trouble figuring out if it's actually rude, or not.

Isn't ignoring someone like that a classic variation of "girl bullying"? I imagine that is how it would feel to the one being ignored.

As a teacher of middle school, I hear and see a lot. We are expected to address bullying seriously. Many times, what a "victim"perceives as bullying, a "perpetrator" perceives as drawing boundaries.

I have read many sad tales on this site about experiences of being bullied. There are always two sides to a story (and I am obviously not referring to any physical bullying).

As a teacher, if OP's daughter came to me asking for help keeping AG away from her at prom, I would probably refer her to the guidance counselor. I would  probably also feel really badly for AG.


I very much agree, perhaps this is when the school guidance-counsellor should be stepping in.  This is beyond the expertise of the girl's acquaintances, as well as their parents.

AG has been doing her best to try to fit in, but it's not working.  But, the reaction of her acquaintances could be seen as exclusion/bullying.  Of course I'm not saying that it's right - but the advice of a professional could be paramount, here.

snowdragon

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2200
Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
« Reply #169 on: March 27, 2013, 11:09:45 PM »
Joraemi's daughter has not done anything to AG. To the contrary, AG has intruded on her time and space, has trod upon several boundaries. By giving in and allowing AG to, once again, behave inappropriately, Joraemi's daughter will be sanctioning that behavior, and she will allow her prom to be about AG instead of about her own enjoyment.

But AG hasn't DONE anything yet.  Several of us have said that if and when she does -- at the prom -- that is the time for the OP's daughter to do something about it.  Not pre-emptively, because that would be presumptuous.  The OP has said the pre-prom activities are not going to be a problem.

 You know, I've been thinking about this.  AG HAS done something to the OP's daughter. AG ruined homecoming for her. Does the OP's daughter now have to wait for AG to ruin the prom for her, too? 
   I can understand the sympathy for the awkward outsider, but seriously - a prom is a once in a lifetime event and the OP's child should not have to sacrifice that for this girl who has already proven to be willing to chase her down, monopolize her and generally not care how the AG's actions affect the OP's daughter.
 The OP's daughter owes it not only to the girls in her group, but to herself to prevent a repeat of homecoming. 

*inviteseller

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1821
  • I am Queen Mommy
Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
« Reply #170 on: March 27, 2013, 11:14:35 PM »
It is not bullying to rebuff unwanted advances, which is what DD is doing.  These girls aren't plotting some Carrie scheme, they just do not want someone they don't consider a friend butting in on the plans they have set up.  If AG had come to the group and said "hey guys, I'm going stag to the prom, do you have room at your table for one more?" then maybe they would consider it, but she announced to the DD that since she didn't have a date either she would be joining in.  She tries to cheat, she literally chases down the DD at homecoming and now she is deciding she is part of a group because she can't make friends on her own.  She seems a bit bullyish herself.  I asked my own 17 yr old DD what she thought about this and she said " it would be mean if they were being cruel to her, making comments about her, laughing at her but they aren't.  They just don't want to have someone they do NOT consider a friend just deciding her prom fun was going to their responsibility to provide." 

Sharnita

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 21370
Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
« Reply #171 on: March 27, 2013, 11:22:34 PM »
It is not bullying to rebuff unwanted advances, which is what DD is doing.  These girls aren't plotting some Carrie scheme, they just do not want someone they don't consider a friend butting in on the plans they have set up.  If AG had come to the group and said "hey guys, I'm going stag to the prom, do you have room at your table for one more?" then maybe they would consider it, but she announced to the DD that since she didn't have a date either she would be joining in.  She tries to cheat, she literally chases down the DD at homecoming and now she is deciding she is part of a group because she can't make friends on her own.  She seems a bit bullyish herself.  I asked my own 17 yr old DD what she thought about this and she said " it would be mean if they were being cruel to her, making comments about her, laughing at her but they aren't.  They just don't want to have someone they do NOT consider a friend just deciding her prom fun was going to their responsibility to provide."

She paid for an available seat.  If they paid for an additional seat it isn't available, if they didn't pay for another seat and it is unoccupied she can indeed announce she will be joining them.  Any other attendee might do the same.  Imagine if every group had the right to tell her she couldn't sit at the extra seats at their tables, where exactly does she go fi they all decline her company?  Or is it only DD and her crew who should be given that right? 

SoCalVal

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2412
Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
« Reply #172 on: March 27, 2013, 11:23:09 PM »
Joraemi's daughter has not done anything to AG. To the contrary, AG has intruded on her time and space, has trod upon several boundaries. By giving in and allowing AG to, once again, behave inappropriately, Joraemi's daughter will be sanctioning that behavior, and she will allow her prom to be about AG instead of about her own enjoyment.

But AG hasn't DONE anything yet.  Several of us have said that if and when she does -- at the prom -- that is the time for the OP's daughter to do something about it.  Not pre-emptively, because that would be presumptuous.  The OP has said the pre-prom activities are not going to be a problem.

But sparing her the public humiliation of being told AT the prom that the person she most wants to spend it with - does not want her around, would be a great kindness to AG, IMHO.

Pod.  In high school, DH had an interest in a fellow senior who was nice to him and considered her his friend.  Their senior class went to Disneyland for Senior Night as did many high school senior classes.  I know DH headed to Senior Night on the school bus with the understanding that he was going to hang out with Friend that night.  They get all the way to Disneyland and, prior to getting off the bus, she tells him that she wants to hang out with her friends, not him.  DH spends the evening by himself and has a horrible night.  Now, DH can be a bit much at time, not picking up social cues, but he's also a sweet guy so I could see the girl not knowing how to break the news to him but really not wanting to spend the evening hanging out with him.  I could see myself being that girl from his high school as I, too, had some "cling-ons" in high school (including one definite stalker who, out of frustration trying to get him to stop bothering me but still be nice and not having it work, I finally screamed at in front of a bunch of students, "Leave me the **** alone!!!").  I could understand why this girl did what she did to DH, but it would've been far kinder to let him know in advance that she didn't want to hang out with him.

I don't think it would be doing AG a kindness to wait until prom to let her know that DD and friends do not want to hang out with her.  I don't know of a good way to let AG know gently (go to AG's house and tell her?).  It'll suck for sure, but it'll suck more to find out at prom.  I know I don't think kindly of the girl waiting until they were at Disneyland to let DH know she didn't want to hang out with him.

As far as looking back and wishing I were nicer to people in high school?  I'm pleased to say I was as nice as I wanted to be in high school.  I was nice to people as a rule.  However, nice didn't mean I had to socialize with everyone.  In fact, now that I think about it, when I was a junior and then-BFF was a senior, we and some of our friends ended up with a cling-on the first few days of school.  A freshman decided to be "bold" and attach himself to this group and that group at school.  It was very weird for the bunch of us to find this little kid all of a sudden hanging on the periphery of our circle.  We were a bunch of goth kids so I guess he thought he'd try Goth Kid Group #1 first.  We didn't tell him to leave, but we didn't encourage him because he really didn't fit in.  After a few days, we saw him attempt to infiltrate Goth Kid Group #2 (much to our relief).  They must not have taken to him either because a few weeks later, we finally saw him with a group that did seem to accept him.  While none of us really were mean kids, we didn't want this kid hanging out with us but didn't know how to get rid of him, short of being mean (fortunately, he made the choice for us).

Another time, on Senior Ditch Day (again, I was a junior and my friend a senior -- different friend), the plan was that the senior class was meeting up at a park then going to Disneyland.  There was a girl many of us really didn't like (she was super-obnoxious) and when everyone started grouping up at the park, she was one of the last individuals left without a ride when Friend and I were getting ready to leave.  Friend offered to give Girl a ride to Disneyland then we must've had a mind meld (we both thought, "Oh, no, if he does that, we'll probably get stuck hanging out with her") because he then said, "Oh, I'm sorry, but I'm not going to have room in my car" so we left without her.  Turns out Girl and another girl (Girl 2) got left behind (I was surprised about Girl 2 since I always thought she was well-liked -- not by her class apparently).  Anyway, found out later from Girl 2 (who thought it was humiliating but laughed it off), Girl 2 decided to just go home.  Girl 1, though, was peeved, went back to school and told all the teachers where everyone went (I don't think the teachers cared).  Am I sorry we didn't take Girl 1 with us?  Not on your life.  I remember spending a fun day at Disneyland with Friend (who was one of my few friends who was able to attend my wedding a couple of months ago).  I think if Girl 1, like AG, had spent more time in high school not alienating fellow students, then, perhaps, she'd have friends to hang with at the prom (how can you not know that cheating off someone's homework is totally not cool???).  I'm not saying I don't have regrets regarding high school (would've spent much more time focused on my education, for one), but I definitely don't regret my level of niceness/friendliness.



joraemi

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3798
  • Crystal of Enchantment - my current project
Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
« Reply #173 on: March 27, 2013, 11:28:52 PM »
**update**

OP here.  Y'all have been busy here! Whew! Took me a bit to get caught up with the thread. I had one bit of info that I wanted to share with you guys, but needed to verify with DD first, and it's relevant to the update.

Additional info:AG sits at DD's lunch table. There are members of DD's prom group at the lunch table as well as other girls besides AG that aren't in DD's prom group.

So - here is what happened today as the AG/DD were walking down the hall....

AG: do you have your dress?
DD: Yes. I got it at Store X.
AG: we have a lunch table prom group, right?
DD: well, not really. Patty isn't part of the group, Jane isn't...I've had my group set for quite awhile now.
AG: but you and me and AG1 and AG2 don't have dates.
DD: I think there will be lots of groups there of girls that don't have dates

:::they go to class:::

When DD got home she told me about all of this and said that another member of the group mentioned to DD that she had almost the exact same conversation with AG today. She said, "mom- I need to tell her today- I can't let her continue to think this is going to happen."

She sent AG a text message to this effect:

"Hey! I'm sorry if I gave you the impression our lunch table has a prom group. We don't have a group with our our lunch table. My group has been planned for awhile and our plans are pretty well set. I'm sorry if there was a misunderstanding. See you at school!"

AG responded immediately with "that's ok". DD said, "I hope she isn't crying or anything."

I hope so too. I was a bit encouraged by the fact the AG brought it up- she was clearly picking up on some clues somewhere, so that was a good thing.

 I gave DD some of the phrases that you all recommended if she needs to excuse herself from AG at the prom/after prom, just in case it's an issue. If for some reason AG is really clinging to her and monopolizing her, she will speak to a chaperone.

I also just want to clarify that shunning AG at the prom is not the intention of DD or anyone else in the group. DD does not enjoy this persons company. But she will be polite and friendly if AG floats into the group for awhile at prom(like she is every day at school), but will also set limits and disengage if AG is clinging.

I can surely see everyone has a lot of strong feelings about the situation- we do too! Thank you for all the different points of view. I'll keep you posted for sure!




Courage is the price life  exacts for granting peace.  ~Amelia Earhart~

citadelle

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 509
  • fully functional & aesthetically pleasing
Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
« Reply #174 on: March 27, 2013, 11:38:16 PM »
Sounds like good progress, OP.

As for the senior ditch day story, I think that being left behind bc no one likes you is the kind of thing that really scars a person. I know it wasn't necessarily anyone's responsibility, but it doesn't seem like appropriate karma for being annoying. It is the kind of thing  someone might post here as an example of how insensitively they were treated in school.

buvezdevin

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1459
Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
« Reply #175 on: March 27, 2013, 11:41:27 PM »
I have been following this thread with interest and share many of the views previously expressed.

My thought is that, were I OP's DD, I would address this with AG before prom, to alleviate my concern and hopefully avoid a poor experience for either person (AG or DD) at prom.

I would not make it about the group.  I would speak with AG and explain I was a bit surprised and taken aback when AG had been so intent on being with me for all of the homecoming event.  I'd add that while i thought many would be happy to see AG at prom, as would I, I would not want AG counting on me to be her companion for the evening.

Trying to address the matter as what a group does or doesn't want is problematic for many reasons.

OP's DD explaining, gently but directly, that she will not be AG's companion for an event seems better done before the event, given the previous homecoming experience - and because AG has stated her view that DD (and others) will hang out/be her companions for the evening.  I would consider it managing expectations more than setting boundaries. 

If, at the prom, AG tries to attach herself to the group - that would be a matter to handle in the moment, but AG's strong inclination to attach to OP's DD has been demonstrated, and the prior occassion can be used to explain in advance that DD would prefer not to repeat that herself.

Never refuse to do a kindness unless the act would work great injury to yourself, and never refuse to take a drink -- under any circumstances.
Mark Twain

SoCalVal

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2412
Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
« Reply #176 on: March 27, 2013, 11:49:50 PM »
As for the senior ditch day story, I think that being left behind bc no one likes you is the kind of thing that really scars a person. I know it wasn't necessarily anyone's responsibility, but it doesn't seem like appropriate karma for being annoying. It is the kind of thing  someone might post here as an example of how insensitively they were treated in school.

Would it help to mention that Friend's first inclination was to be nice to Girl despite the fact that when, a year earlier, Girl heard Friend's father had died, she said "I wish my father were dead; I pray for that every night" (say this to a guy whose beloved father had just died unexpectedly?).  I didn't mention it because I didn't think it germane to the story, but Girl wasn't just annoying -- she was really obnoxious.  I was friends with a lot of people who weren't great (Friend, himself, could be pretty over-the-top), but Girl went far beyond that.



GrammarNerd

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 569
Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
« Reply #177 on: March 28, 2013, 12:08:15 AM »
I get a chuckle from it....I went to prom in a warmup suit. 

Well, no, I didn't really go TO Prom, but rather I walked through it and said hi to a few people.  See, we didn't really go in groups, and I (of course) didn't have a date.  I didn't really care at the time either.  (Socially, I just wasn't at that point yet; late bloomer.) But I would never have crashed another group, or assumed that I was going with someone without having had detailed conversations about it first.  And that's what AG has done.

I think the main point to remember is that AG has crashed the DD's plans before, and has a history of clinging to her at an important dance.  This cannot be dismissed even with the intention of being 'nice'.  And it gives the DD cause to make sure that it won't happen again, through whatever means are comfortable to her (without her being mean, which doesn't sound like it will be a problem anyway.)  The DD has every right to protect her prom experience.

If you have a reasonable expectation that something will happen, and you don't want that thing to happen, there's nothing rude about being preemptive in ensuring that it won't happen (as long as you do it politely).

OP, I saw your update, and I'm glad that your DD sent her the text.  But I would caution her to be on the lookout for clues that AG is willfully avoiding getting the point.  She may have been blindsided by the text, but then she'll try to bring it up more and hope that your DD won't go any further with 'denying' her.  So it may turn out OK, and that's great if it does, but just keep your guard up, IYKWIM.

(If anyone is wondering, I was one of the photographers for the yearbook, and I knew the school would be open b/c of Prom, so I used the opportunity to go to the darkroom to develop some film and make some prints.  This was back before digital photography was even a dream.  I walked through Prom on the way out, and though I didn't say much more than 'hi' to some people I knew, I felt like a bit of a rebel, which was kind of cool at the time.)  :)


Eden

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 602
Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE #87,#173**
« Reply #178 on: March 28, 2013, 09:50:06 AM »
I think it's hard to give really specific advice of what to do AT the dance because it will depend on how AG approaches the group. I do agree that saying any open seats at their table are off limits (unless  they already planned for someone in particular to occupy them) would be rude. But if during the dance OP's daughter asked AG for some space, I see no issue with that. Again, I am of the opinion that OP's daughter should handle this herself and not involve chaperones. There's probably no way to avoid the issue altogether, but I think OP's daughter has shown enough grace AND backbone to get some space between her and AG without making a scene. Sounds to me like she just needs a little reassurance that she's not a big old meanie if she does it.

rose red

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 7537
Re: Prom Cling-on**UPDATE**
« Reply #179 on: March 28, 2013, 10:11:29 AM »
*snip*

Also observed at these 5 proms I attended, it was nothing like the group love mixer some posters are described.   There was generally fairly little mixing between groups.  You hung out with the group you came with or your closest friends that you met up with after dinner.  (Dinner was separate and generally done as a pair or as a double date).  You may say hello to others or chat briefly but in general everyone was enjoying being with their own crowd.  Frankly, there really wasn't any room for a lone prom goer to insert herself into any given group.  (When I went by myself, I didn't even try.  I respected my friends with their dates too much.  I just wanted to go for a short time.)

Thank you for writing that.  I never went to prom so felt I had no right to say so, but that's how I imagine it.  I did not understand all those posts about how prom is "one school. one group."  Sure there would be talking with friends, but after all, won't boyfriends/girlfriends spend most of their time alone together in the crowd?

Yes, AG has the right to buy a ticket and sit at her assigned table.  What she doesn't have the right to do is stalk someone and that's what the OP's daughter is trying to avoid.  She's not trying to prevent AG from going to prom or even socializing with her in a nice normal fashion.