Author Topic: Meanness  (Read 5823 times)

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sammycat

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Re: Meanness
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2013, 04:29:51 AM »
I think its fine to have a policy to not speak ill of people, but I see no reason why "the dead" should get special consideration. There are some people the world is better off without.

Definitely.

christmascarol

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Re: Meanness
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2013, 05:26:18 AM »
I was telling my Dad about a sadistic dinner lady I knew and said, "I know you shouldn't speak ill of the dead..."  My Dad interrupted me.  "Death doesn't alter a person's character."  True!

I loathed Margaret Thatcher.  I think she was the worst thing that ever happened to Britain.  However, when told of her death yesterday I just said, "All deaths are sad.  But I didn't like her." 

I hate the sentiment the OP quoted, it is being mean.  But what if it's personal?  Thatcher really hurt people.  Their anger won't have gone away. 

Gyburc

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Re: Meanness
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2013, 05:52:45 AM »
christmascarol, I disagree with you, but won't go into that.

What I will say is that large numbers of the people who are rejoicing over Baroness Thatcher's death are far too young to have experienced her premiership and have no actual idea of what she did or did not do. They simply hate 'Thatcher'. So when these people stage street parties and swig champagne in celebration, they are being not only 'mean' but bigoted.
 
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nayberry

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Re: Meanness
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2013, 05:57:40 AM »
christmascarol, I disagree with you, but won't go into that.

What I will say is that large numbers of the people who are rejoicing over Baroness Thatcher's death are far too young to have experienced her premiership and have no actual idea of what she did or did not do. They simply hate 'Thatcher'. So when these people stage street parties and swig champagne in celebration, they are being not only 'mean' but bigoted.

i was born in 1979, so grew up with thatcher in power,  i thought she worked hard and took a lot of flack for things outwith her control,
 ie the free school milk row,  she voted against taking milk away from children in schools, but because she was minister for education when it happened, people blamed her.


christmascarol

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Re: Meanness
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2013, 06:13:19 AM »
I won't go into politics, we'll get the thread closed.  I won't condone the street parties and find the attitude appalling. 
I was born in 1961, I remember her vividly.  But everyone is entitled to their opinion and I've no respect for people who don't show respect for others.

Gyburc

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Re: Meanness
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2013, 06:38:46 AM »
I definitely agree with you there!  :)
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Margo

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Re: Meanness
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2013, 06:39:19 AM »
I thin kthat what is 'mean' or inappropriate depends to a great extent on the situation. To my mind, there is a huge difference between talking about someone who is a public figure, to people who nly know/knew him/her as a public figure, and talking about someone to epople who know or knew them personally.

So in terms of the original post, I would feel that the comments about the lawyer wer less acceptable, because the likelihood of them being heard by , or coming to the ears of someone who knew him personally and might be grieving are so much greater.

I think that this http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/08/margaret-thatcher-death-etiquette Guardian piece is right when it comes to talking about figures when they die.

christmascarol, I disagree with you, but won't go into that.

What I will say is that large numbers of the people who are rejoicing over Baroness Thatcher's death are far too young to have experienced her premiership and have no actual idea of what she did or did not do. They simply hate 'Thatcher'. So when these people stage street parties and swig champagne in celebration, they are being not only 'mean' but bigoted.
 
I can't agree with this. Some may simply be bigoted, but none of them have been unaffected. Thatcher's legacy is alive and well, there's no-one currently living in the UK who isn't affected by what she did. I think that to assume that people below a certain age don't or can't understand that is a fairly large assumption to make.

I think with a public figure, a lot depends on where you stand in relation to that person and their views / actions - I think what Cicero said
unless we are talking about an extremely abusive/criminal person, I might not always find something nice to say, but I'll find something neutral , or keep quiet. For someone extremely abusive I will say 'the world is a better place today'-but that is for thev extreme cases
applies to public figures too, but that one persons 'extremely abusive' is another's 'strong politician'

That said, I personally don't feel comfortable with the 'dance on the grave' mentality regardless of whether it's being applied to a politician, or a mass murderer.

Queen of Clubs

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Re: Meanness
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2013, 07:35:13 AM »
I think that criticising what the person did is perfectly acceptable.  Margaret Thatcher was a politician, so there are lots of people who loathe what she stood for and the policies she implemented - just as there were people who loathed 'her'* at the height of her power.

*I say loathed 'her' because the majority of those people didn't know her personally, so they loathed her public persona and her actions.

Name-calling strikes me as cowardly.  Would these people have said it to her face when she had the ability and the strength to react?  If they wouldn't have dared, they waited until an old woman who suffered from dementia died, then called her names behind her back.  That's why I also find a lot of the reactions to be mean.

I also think it would have made more sense and been less cowardly to throw street parties when she was removed from the government.

Katana_Geldar

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Re: Meanness
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2013, 07:41:22 AM »
'The evil of men lives after them, the good often interréd with their bones.'

People often find it hard to celebrate the public from the private persona. And how long ago was it that people said the film about her was disrespectful.

I'd like to know how her son and daughter are doing, for one. They have list their mother.

nyarlathotep

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Re: Meanness
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2013, 08:18:43 AM »
What I will say is that large numbers of the people who are rejoicing over Baroness Thatcher's death are far too young to have experienced her premiership and have no actual idea of what she did or did not do. They simply hate 'Thatcher'. So when these people stage street parties and swig champagne in celebration, they are being not only 'mean' but bigoted.

It is possible to be both young and politically informed.

Niamh84

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Re: Meanness
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2013, 08:24:48 AM »
Regarding your first example, I really do think it's unfair to call those who are glad to hear this news "mean".  Many people in the UK and Ireland have absolutely every right to feel how they do about Thatcher and the fact that she is now dead is no reason to change that.

Personally, I would hate for the day that Margaret Thatcher died to go down in the history books as a day of mourning and respectful silence, as in my personal opinion, she doesn't deserve it.   


Niamh84

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Re: Meanness
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2013, 08:28:58 AM »
Actually, I'm rather curious about something also as I don't know where everyone on the board is from.  But, for those of you in America who feel that celebrating the death of Margaret Thatcher is not appropriate - did you feel the same way about those who celebrated the death of Osama Bin Laden? 

Katana_Geldar

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Re: Meanness
« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2013, 08:34:58 AM »
I don't think that celebrating ANY death is appropriate, regardless of who it was. How we react to death meant about the person, it's about US.

Besides, comparing Thatcher and Bin Laden is just wrong. Try Hitler or Stalin instead.

RubyCat

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Re: Meanness
« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2013, 08:47:05 AM »
Actually, I'm rather curious about something also as I don't know where everyone on the board is from.  But, for those of you in America who feel that celebrating the death of Margaret Thatcher is not appropriate - did you feel the same way about those who celebrated the death of Osama Bin Laden?

Comparing a terrorist who planned an attack that cost the lives of 3,000 civilians to an elected head of state is inappropriate.

It seems that in recent years a certain meanness has developed in regards to politics. Maybe it has always been present, but in my experience it has been frowned upon by most polite people. The political has become personal. There are some who seem to think that if I disagree with you, I am more than just wrong, I am evil. Not to say that evil does not exist in this world but the label is applied to too many people with too broad a brush.

We can disagree with someone's views but still respect that this is the passing of a human being. They had family and friends who loved them. One can voice their opposition to someone's  politics without wanting to "dance on their grave."  That is mean and low class. We can do better than that.


Niamh84

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Re: Meanness
« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2013, 08:57:17 AM »
I don't think that celebrating ANY death is appropriate, regardless of who it was. How we react to death meant about the person, it's about US.

Besides, comparing Thatcher and Bin Laden is just wrong. Try Hitler or Stalin instead.

I understand what you're saying, I wasn't trying to put Thatcher and Bin Laden on the exact same level, I was just trying to think of a person hated by Americans that has died in recent years. 

Just the same as it has been said by a poster above that they think it's in poor taste for young people who didn't grow up with Thatcher in power to be making their opinions known on her death.  It could be said that it's unfair for those of you who have not been affected by Thatcherism to judge those who have for their reactions to her death.