Author Topic: Meanness  (Read 5815 times)

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christmascarol

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Re: Meanness
« Reply #30 on: April 09, 2013, 09:05:15 AM »
Quote
I definitely agree with you there! 

That made me smile  :)  That's how political differences should end.

I didn't think the question about Bin Laden's death was comparing him to Thacher or even to her legacy.  It sounded like a genuine question and I found it an interesting thought.  907 people died as a result of the Falklands conflict and I think they were all unnecessary.  Still won't make me celebrate the death of the woman I hold responsible.  Any death is a sad for someone.  I feel so sorry for Thatcher's family.


Piratelvr1121

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Re: Meanness
« Reply #31 on: April 09, 2013, 09:12:15 AM »
My uncle, who is of Irish heritage and fiercely proud of it and thus follows Irish politics, shared something on fbook yesterday that said "I still hate Thatcher." 

I honestly don't know what she did to Ireland, and don't want to get into it here (though a PM from anyone who knows would be appreciated) but I personally have no opinion of her at all.  I don't know what she did/didn't do or what kind of person she was so when I heard the news all I had to say was "That's too bad."
Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars.  You have a right to be here. Be cheerful, strive to be happy. -Desiderata

ettiquit

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Re: Meanness
« Reply #32 on: April 09, 2013, 09:14:06 AM »
I'm not one for disrespecting the dead publicly, but I celebrated Bin Laden's death.  Most people on my FB feed did.  There was one person who made the "I'll never celebrate the loss of a human life" type comment, but that's it.  Bin Laden isn't really controversial in America - it's not a "some people love him and some people hate him" type situation.  I knew I could safely make a "I'm happy he's dead" post on FB without offending anyone.

It's not that simple with Thatcher.

Maybe a better comparison for Thatcher would be Nixon?  He died in 1994, so no social networks yet, but a lot of people really hated him.

Sharnita

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Re: Meanness
« Reply #33 on: April 09, 2013, 09:15:40 AM »
FWIW, Although I think linking Thatcher and bin Laden is avbsurd and insulting I did think it was wrong to have celebrations in the streets and such specifically because he was killed. Not becaise of what it says about him but because of what it seems to say about us.  Being happy that he can't attack anymore is one thing, joyfully celebrating the death beyond that is different. And if you are trying to validate it for political reasons, your cause, whatever - it makes you look like the bad guy.

As far as the US being impacted by Thatcher, certainly not in the way people in the UK were but we were indeed impacted - thus politicians from both parties admiring her as an ally. Just like people in other nations might have an opinion on our current or Presidents based on how he iacted their safety or economy.

Thipu1

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Re: Meanness
« Reply #34 on: April 09, 2013, 09:29:34 AM »
We had a delicate situation some years ago when a rather controversial politician died.  We were having dinner with friends and they wanted us to join them in drinking a toast to his death. 

We could all agree that the man had deep character flaws but, one of his policies made it possible for our relatives to come to the US and become citizens.  To the family, that made him a bit of a hero. 

We could not drink to his death but we would drink to his memory.

The difference between this man or Margaret Thatcher and Osama bin Laden is that bin Laden acted out of pure hatred.  Thatcher made poor choices but I have no doubt that she believed she was acting in the best interests of her country.

In my mind, that makes all the difference.     


perpetua

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Re: Meanness
« Reply #35 on: April 09, 2013, 09:31:41 AM »
It could be said that it's unfair for those of you who have not been affected by Thatcherism to judge those who have for their reactions to her death.

I agree with you.

Also:

This morning, after the death of Margaret Thatcher was announced, I came across someone saying they would dance on her grave for the (perceived) horrible things English people suffered when she was prime minister.

I hope this wasn't meant as offensively and dismissively as it came across. For thousands, millions of people in the UK, there was absolutely *nothing* 'perceived' about it.

My personal opinion is that the time for celebration was when she was ousted from office, rather than on the occasion of the death of a now elderly and frail woman with Alzheimers, but I can absolutely see why some people hold the strong opinions that they do about this matter.

Niamh84

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Re: Meanness
« Reply #36 on: April 09, 2013, 09:31:55 AM »
Yep, I get what you all mean about the comparison not being perfect, I just don't think I can think of an equivalent who has died in the advent of social media that could help you understand how many people feel towards Thatcher.

christmascarol is correct in what I was trying to get at is that many hold her responsible for the deaths of those in the Falklands war.  Her policies on Ireland are another that many would feel caused deaths and the lady herself, I feel, was most unsympathetic to the relatives of the Falklands dead so I can't see why others should afford her more respect now.

Having said that, and as we're speaking of the etiquette issue of publicly celebrating someone's death, although my facebook and twitter were full of celebrations yesterday, I didn't comment on any of it.  So, though I think it is perfectly fine for all of my friends and family to publicly celebrate the death of this woman, it's not something I took part in myself.

GratefulMaria

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Re: Meanness
« Reply #37 on: April 09, 2013, 09:32:56 AM »
Actually, I'm rather curious about something also as I don't know where everyone on the board is from.  But, for those of you in America who feel that celebrating the death of Margaret Thatcher is not appropriate - did you feel the same way about those who celebrated the death of Osama Bin Laden?

I'm in the States, a military wife, and I was ashamed and deeply troubled.  Regardless of my political opinions, I disliked the public glee for two reasons:  In an idealistic sense, I believe we (humans, not just citizens of the U.S.) define ourselves by how we treat death and life.  In a pragmatic sense, the exuberance struck me as unseemly, ineffective, and strategically unsound.

My issue is with what I think of as misdirected celebrations.  Disagreeing with actions and policies, acknowledging abuse and cruelty, even grim satisfaction, are all understandable.  How we convey something like that to those around us says more about what we think of ourselves and them than what we think of the dead.

There are people in my life whose death will be a relief.  But if I need them die before doing handsprings, that means I should be doing more to address their impact on me while they're alive.

Calistoga

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Re: Meanness
« Reply #38 on: April 09, 2013, 09:35:54 AM »
I for one have never understood why you'd be happy that someone you disagreed with had died.

Changed their mind? Sure.

But died?

I don't know any famous people or politicians well enough to say that the world is better off without them... unless they are of the actively enslaving brutal murder type.

Niamh84

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Re: Meanness
« Reply #39 on: April 09, 2013, 09:37:41 AM »

My personal opinion is that the time for celebration was when she was ousted from office, rather than on the occasion of the death of a now elderly and frail woman with Alzheimers

I think that's a very good point. 

Piratelvr1121

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Re: Meanness
« Reply #40 on: April 09, 2013, 09:42:08 AM »
I have sympathy for anyone who is or did suffer from that disease.  It's awful and I wouldn't even wish it on my worst enemy.
Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars.  You have a right to be here. Be cheerful, strive to be happy. -Desiderata

TootsNYC

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Re: Meanness
« Reply #41 on: April 09, 2013, 09:59:06 AM »
Actually, I'm rather curious about something also as I don't know where everyone on the board is from.  But, for those of you in America who feel that celebrating the death of Margaret Thatcher is not appropriate - did you feel the same way about those who celebrated the death of Osama Bin Laden?

Yes. I did.

I think it was very, very bad form to jubilate over his death.

Grim satisfaction, sure.

Glee? Jubilation? Very bad form. (and remember, etiquette is about "good form" just as much as it is about "rudeness")

GratefulMaria summed up my opinion pretty well.

Calistoga

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Re: Meanness
« Reply #42 on: April 09, 2013, 10:04:11 AM »
Bin Laden coming out of his lair, formally apologizing for the horrible things he did, and ordering all of his troops to stand down would have been a much better outcome.

I won't lie and say that I was sad to hear he was dead. I didn't mourn his loss. Honestly I was kind of happy to hear that he was dead. But I don't think celebrating a death is classy.

Perfect Circle

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Re: Meanness
« Reply #43 on: April 09, 2013, 10:13:01 AM »
I think that regardless of your personal feelings about a dead politician or another public figure what is required is decorum.
Maybe he's caught in the legend
maybe he's caught in the mood
Maybe these maps and legends
Have been misunderstood

The map that you painted didn't seem real
He just sings whatever he's seen
Point to the legend, point to the east
Point to the yellow, red, and green

AngelicGamer

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Re: Meanness
« Reply #44 on: April 09, 2013, 10:17:21 AM »
I think that if we're going to compare Baroness Thatcher to another person, it really should be to another political icon.  So, I would put it on the level of people talking about how, at the time of his death, people were glad that President Reagan died.  Actually, I think it is best to compare the two because both had policies that still effect people to this day, both had Alzhemizers, and both were loved in their own ways to different people as public figures. 

And yes, there were some people who were glad that President Reagan died.  I think they were wrong then but I don't feel it is my place to tell people what to think.  The same goes with people's reaction to Baroness Thatcher.  It just feels so over the top to someone who wasn't even themselves at the end of their life.




"Life's tough, huh?  And then you die." ~ Buck, the Magnificent Seven.