Author Topic: parenting backbone sighted!  (Read 17792 times)

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AnnaJ

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Re: parenting backbone sighted!
« Reply #60 on: August 05, 2013, 02:29:08 PM »
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The "I want to leave" tantrums are sooo hard to deal with, because I don't want to subject the public to it but if I take him out then I'm rewarding the behavior.

Is there an immediate followup punishment that you find effective?  Something that makes it clear that you may have left but it's not a win for him because 'X' will happen?  To be clear, I'm not advocating anything that goes against your personal parenting ethics, but something that you already do in other circumstances.

I say this because I understand what you're trying to accomplish, but I've been in stores where multiple children have been tantruming and I've simply walked out with a headache - and restaurants?  I'm out of there, having told the manager exactly why.  When people see parents not removing screaming children from stores it does look as though they (parents) are ignoring the situation, which doesn't create a lot of good feelings.

Unfortunately, he's barely 2 and he's not good at making the 'I did this wrong thing, so this unpleasant thing happened' connection yet. When he's in that mood, the unpleasant consequence is staying in the store.  Right now, his parents (and by extension me when I have him) will leave and come back later if they are not within 5-10 minutes of being able to check out and go.  If they are very close to the end, they'll hustle and finish.

This really is making his mother crazy. She tries small trips, long trips, toys to distract him, let him ride, let him walk, go right after the nap, go in the sweet spot between naps, different stores, different times of day. He does this with me, with Mommy, with Daddy.  There is no predictable pattern or variable to eliminate.  Makes errand running soooo much fun!

But he's already making the connection between "I have screaming tantrum" and "We leave the store"...I suspect he's pretty capable of making the connection the other way as long as the consequences are immediate.  The other choice is to cobble together a system that allows the adults involved to run errands with little one for awhile and let him grow out of this stage.  Either way, good luck to all.

asb8

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Re: parenting backbone sighted!
« Reply #61 on: August 05, 2013, 02:32:28 PM »
Quote
The "I want to leave" tantrums are sooo hard to deal with, because I don't want to subject the public to it but if I take him out then I'm rewarding the behavior.

Is there an immediate followup punishment that you find effective?  Something that makes it clear that you may have left but it's not a win for him because 'X' will happen?  To be clear, I'm not advocating anything that goes against your personal parenting ethics, but something that you already do in other circumstances.

I say this because I understand what you're trying to accomplish, but I've been in stores where multiple children have been tantruming and I've simply walked out with a headache - and restaurants?  I'm out of there, having told the manager exactly why.  When people see parents not removing screaming children from stores it does look as though they (parents) are ignoring the situation, which doesn't create a lot of good feelings.

Unfortunately, he's barely 2 and he's not good at making the 'I did this wrong thing, so this unpleasant thing happened' connection yet. When he's in that mood, the unpleasant consequence is staying in the store.  Right now, his parents (and by extension me when I have him) will leave and come back later if they are not within 5-10 minutes of being able to check out and go.  If they are very close to the end, they'll hustle and finish.

This really is making his mother crazy. She tries small trips, long trips, toys to distract him, let him ride, let him walk, go right after the nap, go in the sweet spot between naps, different stores, different times of day. He does this with me, with Mommy, with Daddy.  There is no predictable pattern or variable to eliminate.  Makes errand running soooo much fun!

But he's already making the connection between "I have screaming tantrum" and "We leave the store"...I suspect he's pretty capable of making the connection the other way as long as the consequences are immediate.  The other choice is to cobble together a system that allows the adults involved to run errands with little one for awhile and let him grow out of this stage.  Either way, good luck to all.

That's pretty much the conclusion his parents have come to.  Like I said, all involved parties recognize that the No One wants to deal with a  tantrum. Even those (parents, doting godmother) who are obligated too.  ;D

wonderfullyanonymous

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Re: parenting backbone sighted!
« Reply #62 on: August 05, 2013, 04:05:05 PM »
I think too, the way a parent approaches a tantrum has a lot to do with the outcome as well.

A firmly said, "You will stop that right now, a tantrum is NOT acceptable!" Said, with a firm voice and while making eye contact, and the pointer finger placed near child face, has a lot more meaning than,

"Now child, you need to stop doing that, it's not very nice." said in a sing song voice.

A 10-11 month old baby and older knows parent is not kidding when something is said firmly.  My kids knew, that if I broke out "that" voice, all bad behaviors better stop, or ugliness will ensue.

While they did act up, they knew how to behave in the stores, sit down restaurants, and other places of business. When you have kids that strangers will go out of their way to compliment, or your kids are questioning the behavior of other peoples children, somewhere along the lines you know you've done something right.

Some people say that kids shouldn't be allowed to go into nice restaurants. I have been going to high end sit down restaurants since I was little. Those were the only type of restaurants we went to as little ones. My parents raised us to know how to behave in them, and my kids were raised the same way.

Piratelvr1121

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Re: parenting backbone sighted!
« Reply #63 on: August 05, 2013, 04:44:36 PM »
I love a phrase my friend told me about once, that her mother used to use.  "No one performs without an audience". 

I'd be a much happier person if I didn't know how very wrong your friend and her mom were.  A better saying - "No one knows what other people are struggling with".

Well, while I never knew friend's mom, I'm sure she meant it to refer to people (such as neurotypical children or special snowflakes) who are definitely throwing a tantrum to get what they want or to have someone feel sorry for being so mean to them. 
Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars.  You have a right to be here. Be cheerful, strive to be happy. -Desiderata

CakeEater

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Re: parenting backbone sighted!
« Reply #64 on: August 05, 2013, 05:04:48 PM »
I think too, the way a parent approaches a tantrum has a lot to do with the outcome as well.

A firmly said, "You will stop that right now, a tantrum is NOT acceptable!" Said, with a firm voice and while making eye contact, and the pointer finger placed near child face, has a lot more meaning than,

"Now child, you need to stop doing that, it's not very nice." said in a sing song voice.

A 10-11 month old baby and older knows parent is not kidding when something is said firmly.  My kids knew, that if I broke out "that" voice, all bad behaviors better stop, or ugliness will ensue.

While they did act up, they knew how to behave in the stores, sit down restaurants, and other places of business. When you have kids that strangers will go out of their way to compliment, or your kids are questioning the behavior of other peoples children, somewhere along the lines you know you've done something right.

Some people say that kids shouldn't be allowed to go into nice restaurants. I have been going to high end sit down restaurants since I was little. Those were the only type of restaurants we went to as little ones. My parents raised us to know how to behave in them, and my kids were raised the same way.

When you say, 'ugliness will ensue', what, specifically do you mean? I see a lot of advice to just not put up with tantrums. In what way do you not put up with them?

This is the kind of judgement I was referring to earlier. 'My child stopped screaming when I told them firmly to stop. My child stops when I give them a look.' Well, that's great that your child responds like that. I invite anyone to come spend a week (month, year?) at my house and firmly tell my two-year-old to stop one of his tantrums. Tell him that every day for that month and see if it's easier or harder by the last day of the month. Break out whatever ugliness you like. Leave the room, take away he audience. Watch as he spends the next 90 minutes (without exaggeration) following you around screaming.

I would genuinely like someone to come and do that and really find out if it's me who's doing it wrong. Because I don't think it is. Becasue I've done all that. I've done it consistently. I've left shops when the screaming has started. I've not put up wih tantrums. I've not given in to screaming for items.

Please don't assume that what works for one child would just work for every child if only their parents would do it better.

asb8

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Re: parenting backbone sighted!
« Reply #65 on: August 05, 2013, 05:29:14 PM »
That's where I'm coming from CakeEater.  My godson starts up for one of two reasons: he feels he isn't getting enough attention or he wants to go home.  Turning our attention to him, even negatively (firm voice, the Look) is actually giving him what he wants.  Removing him from the store is giving him what he wants. In both scenarios, he then stops the fit.  But now the cycle is being reinforced.  My friend is incredibly frustrated. She knows that letting her 2-year-old tantrum in public isn't right and for her, that now means being housebound until he grows out of this stage.

For this kid, not tolerating would mean continuing to shop/bank/run errands while he screams.  And she's not about to subject the world at large to this.

turnip

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Re: parenting backbone sighted!
« Reply #66 on: August 05, 2013, 05:30:35 PM »
I think too, the way a parent approaches a tantrum has a lot to do with the outcome as well.

A firmly said, "You will stop that right now, a tantrum is NOT acceptable!" Said, with a firm voice and while making eye contact, and the pointer finger placed near child face, has a lot more meaning than,

"Now child, you need to stop doing that, it's not very nice." said in a sing song voice.

A 10-11 month old baby and older knows parent is not kidding when something is said firmly.  My kids knew, that if I broke out "that" voice, all bad behaviors better stop, or ugliness will ensue.

While they did act up, they knew how to behave in the stores, sit down restaurants, and other places of business. When you have kids that strangers will go out of their way to compliment, or your kids are questioning the behavior of other peoples children, somewhere along the lines you know you've done something right.

Some people say that kids shouldn't be allowed to go into nice restaurants. I have been going to high end sit down restaurants since I was little. Those were the only type of restaurants we went to as little ones. My parents raised us to know how to behave in them, and my kids were raised the same way.

When you say, 'ugliness will ensue', what, specifically do you mean? I see a lot of advice to just not put up with tantrums. In what way do you not put up with them?

This is the kind of judgement I was referring to earlier. 'My child stopped screaming when I told them firmly to stop. My child stops when I give them a look.' Well, that's great that your child responds like that. I invite anyone to come spend a week (month, year?) at my house and firmly tell my two-year-old to stop one of his tantrums. Tell him that every day for that month and see if it's easier or harder by the last day of the month. Break out whatever ugliness you like. Leave the room, take away he audience. Watch as he spends the next 90 minutes (without exaggeration) following you around screaming.

I would genuinely like someone to come and do that and really find out if it's me who's doing it wrong. Because I don't think it is. Becasue I've done all that. I've done it consistently. I've left shops when the screaming has started. I've not put up wih tantrums. I've not given in to screaming for items.

Please don't assume that what works for one child would just work for every child if only their parents would do it better.


<hugs>

We've been working with DS for 3 years with a score of behavioral therapists.  But I'm sure the person in the grocery store knows more than any of us. 

I once got pretty sarcastic with someone who said we 'just' need to 'nip < negative behaviors > in the bud!' .    Geez, my son's case manager has 20 years of working with autistic kids, a degree in child psych, and spends weeks every year attending behavior conferences - but I bet it never occurred to her to 'just nip it in the bud!'.  We ought to write a book and watch the money pour in from grateful parents who've eliminated all their children's behavior problems!

Rohanna

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Re: parenting backbone sighted!
« Reply #67 on: August 05, 2013, 05:34:25 PM »
Not everyone *can* be "housebound" for years though. I have a good friend who is a widow with a 2 year old- she cannot afford childcare every time she needs to go get milk or renew a licence. There is no grocery delivery in my town, even if she could afford it- and the only family she has is very elderly. It's a very sheltered and frankly ignorant attitude to think that every parent has the family and resources to pick up the errands of daily life for them. It would be rude to annoy diners at a nice restaurant, or a movie theatre- things that are luxuries- but groceries, bill paying and transit are generally necessities- and sometimes the public has to deal with other members of the public when they aren't at their best.
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. ~ Jack Layton.

LeveeWoman

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Re: parenting backbone sighted!
« Reply #68 on: August 05, 2013, 05:36:04 PM »
Not everyone *can* be "housebound" for years though. I have a good friend who is a widow with a 2 year old- she cannot afford childcare every time she needs to go get milk or renew a licence. There is no grocery delivery in my town, even if she could afford it- and the only family she has is very elderly. It's a very sheltered and frankly ignorant attitude to think that every parent has the family and resources to pick up the errands of daily life for them. It would be rude to annoy diners at a nice restaurant, or a movie theatre- things that are luxuries- but groceries, bill paying and transit are generally necessities- and sometimes the public has to deal with other members of the public when they aren't at their best.

Word!

Jones

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Re: parenting backbone sighted!
« Reply #69 on: August 05, 2013, 05:43:54 PM »
I wish my DS would stop a behavior when given a voice and a finger! He's broken out laughing at that before. Fortunately the only tantrums from him are bedtime, and those are far between. Generally his misbehaviors are attempting to run ahead of us at the grocery store instead of sticking to the cart, and related behaviors (kid likes to explore). He will cry briefly when strapped into a cart but it's not a tantrum. Firm words do nothing though...he accepts action consequences but not words.

StuffedGrapeLeaves

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Re: parenting backbone sighted!
« Reply #70 on: August 05, 2013, 05:51:23 PM »

Please don't assume that what works for one child would just work for every child if only their parents would do it better.

Thank you for saying this, CakeEater.  My DS is the same as yours.  Nothing worked, even when we did it consistently.

Fortunately now that he's four, he has outgrown a lot of the frustrating behaviors.  Hang in there, it will get better. 

CakeEater

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Re: parenting backbone sighted!
« Reply #71 on: August 05, 2013, 07:09:48 PM »

Please don't assume that what works for one child would just work for every child if only their parents would do it better.

Thank you for saying this, CakeEater.  My DS is the same as yours.  Nothing worked, even when we did it consistently.

Fortunately now that he's four, he has outgrown a lot of the frustrating behaviors.  Hang in there, it will get better.

Yes, I'm hanging out for him to grow out of this horrible toddler thing. And I struggle to keep a smile on my face when the 15th person tells me to 'enjoy them when they're little, they grow up too fast!' The faster, the better at this point! I've given DH permission to slap me over the head if I say that to anyone when my kids are older.  ;)

Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not advocating that people do nothing when their kids throw tantrums, or that consistency isn't important. I think, as a general principal, that consistency is a great idea, and that people should work towards helping their kids learn that tantrums aren't a good way to behave.

I'm just very cautious about judging a particular parent's whole parenting ability from the one or two, or even five instances you see them doing what you think is the wrong thing in that situation.

My 4-year-old DD has autism, and while we're very lucky that she has very few of the sensory issues that affect many kids with that condition, one she does have problems with is wet clothes. If her clothes get wet, it's a sensation she finds absolutely intorerable. She had very little language to communicate this up until quite recently, so would let loose with a lot of screaming and struggling to get the offending piece of clothing off.

The goal, worked out with our therapists, was to extend the time she could put up with wet clothes, but to get them off pretty quickly.  So if we are out, and a splash of a drink gets on her T-shirt, things get pretty loud. I'm sure it looks, to casual passersby, as though I'm giving in to a tantrum when I'm doing exactly what she wants while she's screaming. But that's not what I'm doing at all. I'm removing the source of the tantrum, which will not stop until the sensation is removed. She is getting a lot better about being able to tolerate this sensation, and now she has more language, she's much more able to ask for a dry shirt than scream.

And she has stopped the screaming, even while I 'gave in' to it every single time, because the cause wasn't bad behaviour. She's also quite tall for her age, so I'm sure it looked like she was too old to be crying like that, and that I was a terrible parent for doing what she wanted. The proof that I was, in fact, doing exactly the right thing is that she has worked out how to deal with this issue, and it's no longer an issue, usually.

wonderfullyanonymous

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Re: parenting backbone sighted!
« Reply #72 on: August 05, 2013, 09:33:22 PM »
The "ugliness" I was referring to, would have been time-outs, or taking things away. While you as parents may be consistant, all it would take is one other person to give in 1 time. Thankfully, their father and I, plus all the grandparents treated everything the same.

My DD, is having a problem because one grandparent gves in to her daughter, DGD. It does affect things on my end of things too. If DGD, wants something, she has been taught by other grandmother that fussing, and tantrumming will get her what she wants.

I would never walk up to a parent and tell them they were parenting wrong, ever. I do feel that not acknowledging a tantrum in a public place runs on the edge of rude. One day at work, we had so many screamers all the cashiers were snapping at everyone. You, as a parent, deal with one child, we have to deal with all of them.

When my youngest was little, people would come up to me and say "Oh, he's so cute!!" I would reply, "It's the only thing that keeps him alive."

Piratelvr1121

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Re: parenting backbone sighted!
« Reply #73 on: August 05, 2013, 10:26:51 PM »
I've been known say something like that, myself.  :)  Even in a loving teasing way to the boys. "It's a good thing you're so cute, it keeps you alive..."
Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars.  You have a right to be here. Be cheerful, strive to be happy. -Desiderata

Minmom3

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Re: parenting backbone sighted!
« Reply #74 on: August 06, 2013, 01:09:21 AM »
There were times in my life when the girls were little and sometimes horribly behaved.  Mine are all neurotypical. But still, they were -  Pigheaded.  Devious.  Smart.  Really Loud.  Zip impulse control.  It made going out and about really difficult at times, and I have felt HUGE sympathy for single parents dealing with the same stuff.  There were days on end when I spent the entire day angry at one or more of them the ENTIRE DAY.  I'd finish up the day feeling like the lowliest worm, a despicable and incapable mother.  I started going in and looking at them sleeping just before I went to bed.  They were beautiful, quiet, well behaved, and out cold.  I could look at them and NOT be angry, NOT be harried, and I COULD feel loving towards them.  Sometimes, that little bit of sweetness was nearly the only easy and peaceful part of the day. 

Heh - a harried mom funny for you all:  #3 was and is the easiest going child of all of them.  She DID however, like to run away, and would do so with gusto.  She also liked to stand up in the grocery cart, and at 3 years old, she stood up and tipped over a half loaded cart.  By some miracle, she didn't get hurt, but she scared me a LOT.  So, to foil the running away and the grocery antics, I bought a harness with a long lead on it.  The lead needed to be longer, so I bought and clipped a leash to it.  When shopping, the lead from the harness was threaded down through the child seat to the bottom of the grocery cart, and then wrapped around her and the cart until all the extra was used up, and she looked a bit like a rainbow mummy, as the lead from the harness and the leash were both rainbow striped.  It was nuts...  It took me a good 3 minutes to get her in and fastened, and another 3 to get her out again back at the car.  The groceries had to sit in the rain while I got the kid out of the grocery cart and buckled into her car seat. 

I got plenty of stink eye from old ladies at the harness and the grocery cart tie downs, but you know what?  When I used them, I didn't HAVE to call security in a panic because I couldn't find my child.  I didn't have to hunt her down inside the door, and wonder if she'd made it out the door to the street yet.  I also didn't have to worry about her safety at the grocery store, and she also couldn't reach over and pluck things from the shelves and toss them into the cart.  It looked a little silly to have her so strapped down, but it kept her safe.  I got a LOT of practice at telling people to mind their own business, but I ALSO got a lot of praise from store personnel for keeping my child with me and safe.
Mother to children and fuzz butts....