Author Topic: Were we wrong? Update p3  (Read 8325 times)

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TootsNYC

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Re: Were we wrong?
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2013, 05:18:34 PM »
I don't think it's very productive to assign negative motivations to something we don't have information on. Could be they just had a few kids more than usual. Could be the kid was on two lists. Could be 10000 innocent things. I don't think anyone tried to "shoot you down", I just don't think it's pertinent. 

ETA: And even if that's what happened, how is it any different than the OP trying to move HER kid around?

IF that happened, it would be different because it would mean that her son had actually been assigned to the team he originally thought he was on.  So it would have been "his" fair-and-square team according to whatever selection process the league uses.

Then another set of parents sees the roster of their child's team and says, "Oh no!!  Johnny really REALLY wanted to be on Mr. Goodcoach's team and look!  He' got on Mr. Mediocre's team instead!!  That just won't do.  Not only that, but he doesn't like a couple of the boys on the team he's been assigned to.  We'll just request that he be switched out of Mr. Mediocre's team and placed on Mr. Goodcoach's team.  They can switch out that new kid!!  He doesn't know anyone anyway, so he won't know the difference."

That's still not the tiniest bit difference than what the OP did.
And I think the OP was absolutely fine to insist that her kid stay on the team he'd originally thought he was on.

And honestly, this?  "He doesn't know anyone anyway, so he won't know the difference."

You're making that up without the slightest bit of evidence.

(And if that is what happened, actually, what's wrong with it? If he truly didn't know anybody else, why would he care? As it turns out, he did know some kids, and so his parents advocated for him.)

bonyk

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Re: Were we wrong?
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2013, 06:00:48 PM »
I don't think it's very productive to assign negative motivations to something we don't have information on. Could be they just had a few kids more than usual. Could be the kid was on two lists. Could be 10000 innocent things. I don't think anyone tried to "shoot you down", I just don't think it's pertinent. 

ETA: And even if that's what happened, how is it any different than the OP trying to move HER kid around?

IF that happened, it would be different because it would mean that her son had actually been assigned to the team he originally thought he was on.  So it would have been "his" fair-and-square team according to whatever selection process the league uses.

Then another set of parents sees the roster of their child's team and says, "Oh no!!  Johnny really REALLY wanted to be on Mr. Goodcoach's team and look!  He' got on Mr. Mediocre's team instead!!  That just won't do.  Not only that, but he doesn't like a couple of the boys on the team he's been assigned to.  We'll just request that he be switched out of Mr. Mediocre's team and placed on Mr. Goodcoach's team.  They can switch out that new kid!!  He doesn't know anyone anyway, so he won't know the difference."

That's still not the tiniest bit difference than what the OP did.
And I think the OP was absolutely fine to insist that her kid stay on the team he'd originally thought he was on.

And honestly, this?  "He doesn't know anyone anyway, so he won't know the difference."

You're making that up without the slightest bit of evidence.

(And if that is what happened, actually, what's wrong with it? If he truly didn't know anybody else, why would he care? As it turns out, he did know some kids, and so his parents advocated for him.)

I think it's very different -- the OP wanted them to stick to what they originally posted.  If other people asked for a switch, they were asking for a change for another, unrelated child as well as their own.

Goosey

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Re: Were we wrong?
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2013, 06:12:48 PM »
But the team had NO reason to think the change would be a problem. Roster changes happen all the time. Also, if it happened (and there is absolutely no reason to think it did in this case), I doubt it happened in the snooty tone - probably more akin to the OP's reasonable request.

BUT, if the error was that the OP's son was NOT supposed to be on the list, are you saying that her request (which would push someone else's kid elsewhere) is wrong?

half_dollars

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Re: Were we wrong?
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2013, 06:42:02 PM »
OP here.

Thanks for your comments!  I'm glad to read that I wasn't too out of line.  :-)

I honestly have no idea if they get requests to change teams.  I did wonder if someone wanted on "our" team, and we happened to be the one to change, for whatever reason.  There is nothing that indicated it, but because of the "you should encourage your child to make friends" comment, I don't know.  I just thought that was an odd response, and maybe it was supposed to guilt/manipulate us towards the other team.  I know it isn't charitable to think negative of others, so I shouldn't jump to conclusions, but it was on the back of my mind.

bonyk

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Re: Were we wrong?
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2013, 06:45:29 PM »
But the team had NO reason to think the change would be a problem. Roster changes happen all the time. Also, if it happened (and there is absolutely no reason to think it did in this case), I doubt it happened in the snooty tone - probably more akin to the OP's reasonable request.

BUT, if the error was that the OP's son was NOT supposed to be on the list, are you saying that her request (which would push someone else's kid elsewhere) is wrong?

No, I think once the list goes out, and a kid happily thinks he's on a certain team, the church has to abide by that.  IMO, the OP is not asking for a change, she's asking them to stick with what they originally stated.  I think that's different for asking for a change.

TootsNYC

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Re: Were we wrong?
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2013, 06:49:08 PM »
I think it's very different -- the OP wanted them to stick to what they originally posted.  If other people asked for a switch, they were asking for a change for another, unrelated child as well as their own.

But we're making it up--we have absolutely no reason to believe this is what happened. At all.

Again, i think every parent would have the right to ask for their kid to be on a different team if they truly believed that would make a difference in how much the kid enjoyed the activity.

And the coach has every right to resist that request, because my goodness, what a mess!

gramma dishes

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Re: Were we wrong?
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2013, 09:04:10 PM »
I don't think it's very productive to assign negative motivations to something we don't have information on. Could be they just had a few kids more than usual. Could be the kid was on two lists. Could be 10000 innocent things. I don't think anyone tried to "shoot you down", I just don't think it's pertinent. 

ETA: And even if that's what happened, how is it any different than the OP trying to move HER kid around?

IF that happened, it would be different because it would mean that her son had actually been assigned to the team he originally thought he was on.  So it would have been "his" fair-and-square team according to whatever selection process the league uses.

Then another set of parents sees the roster of their child's team and says, "Oh no!!  Johnny really REALLY wanted to be on Mr. Goodcoach's team and look!  He' got on Mr. Mediocre's team instead!!  That just won't do.  Not only that, but he doesn't like a couple of the boys on the team he's been assigned to.  We'll just request that he be switched out of Mr. Mediocre's team and placed on Mr. Goodcoach's team.  They can switch out that new kid!!  He doesn't know anyone anyway, so he won't know the difference."

That's still not the tiniest bit difference than what the OP did.
And I think the OP was absolutely fine to insist that her kid stay on the team he'd originally thought he was on.

And honestly, this?  "He doesn't know anyone anyway, so he won't know the difference."

You're making that up without the slightest bit of evidence.

(And if that is what happened, actually, what's wrong with it? If he truly didn't know anybody else, why would he care? As it turns out, he did know some kids, and so his parents advocated for him.)

Yes, of course I'm making it up!  I'm presenting a hypothetical situation.  And yes, there is a very big difference between parents who do that and parents who do what the OP did. 

1.  OP's situation: Parents asked that their son be kept on the team to which he was originally assigned and knew about.
2.  Hypothetical parents situation:  Parents ask that their son be removed from the roster of the team to which he was originally assigned and placed on another team, pushing a child out of that 'preferred' team in the process.

I think that's a HUGE difference! The exact opposite in fact.

snappylt

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Re: Were we wrong?
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2013, 10:21:38 PM »
OP here.

Thanks for your comments!  I'm glad to read that I wasn't too out of line.  :-)

I honestly have no idea if they get requests to change teams.  I did wonder if someone wanted on "our" team, and we happened to be the one to change, for whatever reason.  There is nothing that indicated it, but because of the "you should encourage your child to make friends" comment, I don't know.  I just thought that was an odd response, and maybe it was supposed to guilt/manipulate us towards the other team.  I know it isn't charitable to think negative of others, so I shouldn't jump to conclusions, but it was on the back of my mind.

If I am understanding correctly, you were only requesting that your son be kept on the team that they had originally told you would be his team.

I think you were fine.

Of course I am speculating here: I wonder if it is very difficult to juggle all those kids on all those teams - and since your family is new, if the other fellow needed to juggle some kids around for whatever reason, he may have figured that the new family wouldn't mind, or would mind less that the families who had been there longer.  You explained why you wanted your son left on his original team, and the fellow backed down in the end.

I wonder if he could have used better phrasing there!  I had the first impression when I read your post that those phrases he used were just almost meaningless bureaucratic phrases to try to manipulate parents into giving in to him.  I could be wrong, but "meaningless bureaucratic phrases" is what jumped into my head.

Anyway, my own opinion is that you can relax and feel OK that you politely did the right thing for your son in this case.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2013, 10:31:59 PM by snappylt »

Goosey

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Re: Were we wrong?
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2013, 08:07:48 AM »
I don't think it's very productive to assign negative motivations to something we don't have information on. Could be they just had a few kids more than usual. Could be the kid was on two lists. Could be 10000 innocent things. I don't think anyone tried to "shoot you down", I just don't think it's pertinent. 

ETA: And even if that's what happened, how is it any different than the OP trying to move HER kid around?

IF that happened, it would be different because it would mean that her son had actually been assigned to the team he originally thought he was on.  So it would have been "his" fair-and-square team according to whatever selection process the league uses.

Then another set of parents sees the roster of their child's team and says, "Oh no!!  Johnny really REALLY wanted to be on Mr. Goodcoach's team and look!  He' got on Mr. Mediocre's team instead!!  That just won't do.  Not only that, but he doesn't like a couple of the boys on the team he's been assigned to.  We'll just request that he be switched out of Mr. Mediocre's team and placed on Mr. Goodcoach's team.  They can switch out that new kid!!  He doesn't know anyone anyway, so he won't know the difference."

That's still not the tiniest bit difference than what the OP did.
And I think the OP was absolutely fine to insist that her kid stay on the team he'd originally thought he was on.

And honestly, this?  "He doesn't know anyone anyway, so he won't know the difference."

You're making that up without the slightest bit of evidence.

(And if that is what happened, actually, what's wrong with it? If he truly didn't know anybody else, why would he care? As it turns out, he did know some kids, and so his parents advocated for him.)

Yes, of course I'm making it up!  I'm presenting a hypothetical situation.  And yes, there is a very big difference between parents who do that and parents who do what the OP did. 

1.  OP's situation: Parents asked that their son be kept on the team to which he was originally assigned and knew about.
2.  Hypothetical parents situation:  Parents ask that their son be removed from the roster of the team to which he was originally assigned and placed on another team, pushing a child out of that 'preferred' team in the process.

I think that's a HUGE difference! The exact opposite in fact.

I think we get your bolded statements. We really get that it's your arguement.

I just don't see that much of a difference. Somebody's going to be inconvinienced in either scenario. It's just nicer when it's not your kid.

Also, WHY are you making up this hypothetical situation and applying it to the group in the OP when there's reason to suspect it's true. THAT'S our point. It's better not to start slinging made up mud at an organization you know nothing about. Keeps the world a happier place.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 08:09:39 AM by Goosey »

camlan

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Re: Were we wrong?
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2013, 09:37:42 AM »
What puzzles me is this.

From the OP:

The mom has attended mega-church for a number of years, and shared that the church likes to keep kiddos together, whether it is sports teams, Sunday school classes, small groups, etc.  This is great, as it's a huge church (20,000+), so it's nice that the kiddos can see a familiar face when they experience something new.

(snip)

DH and I discussed, and ended up asking the recreation manager to keep DS7 on his current team.  We explained that we recently moved, and DS7 was excited to know some people on his team.  Rec manager replied that uniforms were ordered already and as good parents, we should encourage our child to make friends wherever he goes. DH responded, saying we would gladly pay for the extra fees to get one extra uniform, but, we really would prefer that DS7 stays on the current team.  Rec manager said he could stay on the team.

Either the church has a policy of keeping kids together, or it doesn't.

I'd have responded to the email with something along the lines of, "We understood that the church likes to keep groups of children together, across sports, Sunday School, etc.? Is this not correct? What is the official church policy on this?"

Because if the mom is right, then the rec manager doesn't know the policy. Or maybe the mom has just observed kids being together and thought it was a church policy when it really isn't and the kids were just kept together by accident. But I'd want to know what the official church policy was, for future situations.

And yeah, the tone implied in "good parents would .  . ." would really irritate me, as I see no other interpretation than the OP and her DH aren't good parents.

I think the OP handled the situation well. Her son is new to the area and new to the church--there were good reasons to ask to keep him on the team where he already knew some of the other players. As a military brat who moved every year for nine years, that little bit of familiarity would go a long way, and seems like a very reasonable request.
Nothing is impossible, the word itself says, “I’m possible!” –Audrey Hepburn


MommyPenguin

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Re: Were we wrong?
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2013, 10:16:30 AM »
As a military mom with kids who have moved 7 times in the past 4 years, I am really trying hard to be able to find some activities with kids that overlap so that my daughters can make some friends.  Because I homeschool, I want them to be able to see some of the same kids more than one hour a week, so that they can really get to know the other kids.  So I can really see wanting your kids to not just make a bunch of shallower friendships across many different activities, but a few deeper friendships with kids who share several activities and that you see more than once a week.  I don't think you did anything wrong by asking and then pushing for it, as long as you weren't obnoxious about it and it doesn't sound like you were.

I can get the coach not really wanting to mess with the intended teams just because a name ended up in the wrong column or something, but I'm glad that they gave in at the end so that your son can get to know these boys a bit better.  I hope the friendships continue well and that he feels settled in his new home soon!

Virg

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Re: Were we wrong?
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2013, 10:31:45 AM »
TootsNYC wrote:

"And the coach has every right to resist that request, because my goodness, what a mess!"

The problem I have is the method of resistance.  Making implications that half_dollars would be a good parent to acquiesce (and therefore implying that she's not a good parent if she insists) is not proper, and I suspect that implication is what ran counter to his testimony at the soccer camp.  He has the right to try to turn her around on the decision (mentioning that uniforms were already ordered is a good example of how to present this correctly, because it's a rational reason that half_dollars might decide to roll with the change), but not to try to shame her into it.  As it was, his attempt was manipulative and judgmental.

Virg

gramma dishes

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Re: Were we wrong?
« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2013, 10:34:32 AM »
...   

Also, WHY are you making up this hypothetical situation and applying it to the group in the OP when there's reason to suspect it's true. THAT'S our point. It's better not to start slinging made up mud at an organization you know nothing about. Keeps the world a happier place.

  You're right of course.  Her post mentions no reason to suspect this.

The reason I brought it up as a possibility is because I've seen and experienced exactly that kind of thing going on in various youth sports our own son participated in when he was young.  (To be clear, he was never moved and never asked to be moved, but it happened to several of his friends and acquaintances.) 

Also, my brother coached a youth baseball team a few years, and he also had some 'interesting' stories about parents demanding their child change teams.

Because I've seen it happen so frequently and have known of it's happening in groups even our friends' children have participated in, it was the very first thing that came to my mind when I read the OP's initial post.

Roodabega

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Re: Were we wrong?
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2013, 12:02:46 PM »
One big flaw in the logic of the recreation manager is the the OPs son needs to be on a different team to make new friends.  The son is only sure about 2 players on the team.  The rest of the players will probably be new to him, so he IS meeting new people and potentially making new friends if he stays.   I would persist with your request for your son to stay on that team.

TootsNYC

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Re: Were we wrong?
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2013, 12:20:03 PM »
What puzzles me is this.

From the OP:

The mom has attended mega-church for a number of years, and shared that the church likes to keep kiddos together, whether it is sports teams, Sunday school classes, small groups, etc.  This is great, as it's a huge church (20,000+), so it's nice that the kiddos can see a familiar face when they experience something new.

(snip)

Either the church has a policy of keeping kids together, or it doesn't.

I'd have responded to the email with something along the lines of, "We understood that the church likes to keep groups of children together, across sports, Sunday School, etc.? Is this not correct? What is the official church policy on this?"

Because if the mom is right, then the rec manager doesn't know the policy. Or maybe the mom has just observed kids being together and thought it was a church policy when it really isn't and the kids were just kept together by accident. But I'd want to know what the official church policy was, for future situations.

And it's also possible that the coach didn't know *THIS KID*. This is a new kid. maybe the coach was completely unaware of who he should be "kept together" with.

Or, at a certain point, you can't keep everyone "together," and you have to bust people up somehow.

(I do like the observation that it is possible the other mother was mistaken.)

Either way, the OP was completely fine.