Do I have to invite _him_?

[Queen of Clubs]

I would not have Hector at a party I hosted or where I was the guest of honor. That would be my hill to die on. However, Hortense herself isn't my hill. So I would leave that part up to your mother, as a compromise. If, to make her happy, Hortense should be invited solo, I would be willing to bend etiquette. If she prefers that Hortense not be invited solo, then she is the one to deal with the fall out.

I agree with this.  Hector is a creep and the OP and her female guests should not be forced to endure his company for the sake of etiquette.  Hortense chooses to stay with him - which is her choice - but it doesn't mean anyone else has to put up with him.

[CakeBeret]

I think the best thing to do is tell your mother, "Hector is not welcome at the party. Full stop. I can either invite Hortense alone, or not invite them at all; that is up to you."

Personally? I would go ahead and invite Hortense. She knows her husband is a perv and she makes the choice to stay with him, so I doubt she'd be mortally offended if she was invited without him.

[sammycat]

I would not have Hector at a party I hosted or where I was the guest of honor. That would be my hill to die on. However, Hortense herself isn't my hill. So I would leave that part up to your mother, as a compromise. If, to make her happy, Hortense should be invited solo, I would be willing to bend etiquette. If she prefers that Hortense not be invited solo, then she is the one to deal with the fall out.

I agree with this.  Hector is a creep and the OP and her female guests should not be forced to endure his company for the sake of etiquette.  Hortense chooses to stay with him - which is her choice - but it doesn't mean anyone else has to put up with him.

These are these are my thoughts exactly.

[blarg314]

I guess I'm trying to work some sort of crazy, non-confrontational magic here. 

That's a problem, because there usually isn't in a situation like this - someone is going to be upset.  So you basically have to decide which option is least repugnant to you.

1) knowingly setting up your guests to be harassed by a lecherous pig, and having someone who makes you feel gross and slimy at your engagement party, but keeping Mom, Hector and Hortense happy.

2) protecting your guests and yourself, and setting a precedent that you won't be inviting him to the wedding, but having to deal with the fallout from your Mom.

3) Directly telling Hortense that she is welcome but her husband isn't. Deal with the fallout from your mom, Hortense and Hector. (I'd be very wary of assuming that someone would both recognize that the invitation deliberately excludes her husband and accept it happily  because she accepts that her husband is a lecherous pig who can't be trusted in public).

4) Change the party so you can exclude one of them without offense - make it a family only party, for example. Accept that you can't invite everyone else you want as a result.

5) Skip the party completely, and meet people a few at a time to introduce your fiance.

[blarg314]

Oh, and FWIW, I'd personally go with not inviting either, and accepting the fallout from my Mom. In part because I don't think it's fair to deliberately set up my guests like that, and in part to set the precedent that I'm not automatically going follow her expectations when it comes to what she thinks I should do, and to establish that I am willing to rock the boat for something that is important to me.

Establishing this before you start planning a wedding, starting a life with your fiance, and possibly adding kids to the mix is very, very useful and while unpleasant at the time can save a lot of grief later.

[sammycat]

If I attended a gathering and later found out the host has invited someone she knew was a creep (to put it nicely), or a thief, or exhibited some other sort of antisocial behaviour, it would seriously taint my view of the host. Doubly so if I was subjected to said bad bad behavior.  I'd possibly reexamine my relationship with her/him, as it would seem they are exhibiting very poor judgement in some areas.

I would wonder why the host thought the feelings of the wrongdoer was more important than the feelings/safety/well being of the rest of the guests/victims.

Hortense is fully aware of her husband's behaviour. She is choosing to stay married to him. Unfortunately, sometimes decisions have consequences, and in this situation, not being invited to an event is one of those consequences. I wouldn't be changing the nature of my event (to all ladies/family only/whatever) simply because of one person.

[Hmmmmm]

If I attended a gathering and later found out the host has invited someone she knew was a creep (to put it nicely), or a thief, or exhibited some other sort of antisocial behaviour, it would seriously taint my view of the host. Doubly so if I was subjected to said bad bad behavior.  I'd possibly reexamine my relationship with her/him, as it would seem they are exhibiting very poor judgement in some areas.

I would wonder why the host thought the feelings of the wrongdoer was more important than the feelings/safety/well being of the rest of the guests/victims.

Hortense is fully aware of her husband's behaviour. She is choosing to stay married to him. Unfortunately, sometimes decisions have consequences, and in this situation, not being invited to an event is one of those consequences. I wouldn't be changing the nature of my event (to all ladies/family only/whatever) simply because of one person.

Really, having someone you thought had questionable social skills would color your opinion of the host for ever? 

The OP isn't describing a criminal or even someone who openly propositions women. It's someone who makes her and to her knowledge some others uncomfortable. But I think there would also be a group who would find his "old guy keeping up" as funny. He's a bore, and unfortunately a bore focused on sexual innuendo. But people also encounter bores who focus on social status or money or elite educations. Personally, I'd rather spend the evening laughing at the old guy trying to be a stud than the snob looking down on people who don't meet his social expectations. But if a friend invited a snobbish bore to her event, I wouldn't judge her by that single action.

[sammycat]

From the OP:

Hector basically cannot leave the house without sexually harassing at least three girls/women.  A lot of what he says could sound innocuous coming from other people.  He doesn't leap out of bushes or molest children or anything quite so... dramatic. But he does make girls and women feel really gross.  He makes me feel really gross, in fact.  He's been doing so since I was a tween.  I do not tolerate his behavior, and I avoid being at events where he is.

If the OP knowingly subjected me to that, then yes it would colour my view of them. 

[Bluenomi]

I'd invite Hortense and not Hector only if I knew she would come alone and there was no chance he's come along anyway. If there was even the slightest chance he'd come because his wife was invited I wouldn't invite either. If he's happy to sexually harass women, he's going to have no problem gate crashing an event his wife if going to

[Hmmmmm]

From the OP:

Hector basically cannot leave the house without sexually harassing at least three girls/women.  A lot of what he says could sound innocuous coming from other people.  He doesn't leap out of bushes or molest children or anything quite so... dramatic. But he does make girls and women feel really gross.  He makes me feel really gross, in fact.  He's been doing so since I was a tween.  I do not tolerate his behavior, and I avoid being at events where he is.

If the OP knowingly subjected me to that, then yes it would colour my view of them.

Sexually harassment is unwanted sexual advances or obscene remarks. Her one example was an off color remark which I personally would have a hard time classifying as obscene but more in very poor taste. I wouldn't shun a friend because they invited a close family friend to an event and exposed me to off color or even obscene comments.

I'm not saying she should invite him or that his behavior is acceptable. But I can't imagine letting this one instance color my friendship with this person. I'm adult and can handle dealing with distasteful people when necessary.

[shhh its me]

From the OP:

Hector basically cannot leave the house without sexually harassing at least three girls/women.  A lot of what he says could sound innocuous coming from other people.  He doesn't leap out of bushes or molest children or anything quite so... dramatic. But he does make girls and women feel really gross.  He makes me feel really gross, in fact.  He's been doing so since I was a tween.  I do not tolerate his behavior, and I avoid being at events where he is.

If the OP knowingly subjected me to that, then yes it would colour my view of them.

Sexually harassment is unwanted sexual advances or obscene remarks. Her one example was an off color remark which I personally would have a hard time classifying as obscene but more in very poor taste. I wouldn't shun a friend because they invited a close family friend to an event and exposed me to off color or even obscene comments.

I'm not saying she should invite him or that his behavior is acceptable. But I can't imagine letting this one instance color my friendship with this person. I'm adult and can handle dealing with distasteful people when necessary.

Her other example was it was not what was  but the tone , OP I do understand how much tone can change something.  plus this  A lot of what he says could sound innocuous coming from other people. 

 OP I presume other woman have said "he creeps me out." or something to that effect.  Maybe I have the wrong impression or misread something but I'm under the impression.......  Hortense is an active respect member of the community and invited to lots of events therefore Horace is also invited to lots of events and these events commonly have overlapping guest lists?  Maybe everyone is too "shy" to say anything. 

[GreenEyedHawk]

I haven't read the whole thread, but if Hortense is aware of what Hector is like and she wouldn't want him there either, why not speak to her beforehand and ask her what she feels is best.

I might be way off base here, but I'm wondering if Hortense could come on her own and silence the gossipers by telling them Hector was invited, but for (reason) could not make it.

[Nikko-chan]

I am with team "Do not invite hector, but invite hortense."

A few things really stuck out to me in your OP.

He makes me feel really gross, in fact.  He's been doing so since I was a tween.  I do not tolerate his behavior, and I avoid being at events where he is.


Here's the issue: Hortense is close to my mom.  I would love to invite Hortense to the party, for my mom's sake. I will not invite Hector because I can't trust for one minute that he won't try peering down some fifteen-year-old's dress or telling my future S-I-L just how lovely she looks in a tone that will make her want to shower with a steel brush and bleach.  I will not spend the evening running interference on his lewdness.


Those two comments really stuck out, especially the bolded. He has been making you feel gross since you were a tween. That would be what, eleven, twelve? And not just gross, I'll wager. Maybe he even made you feel unsafe. So you know exactly how your guests are going to feel.

The second thing that stuck out was that second sentence. Peering down a fifteen year old's dress. Fifteen. That means the young lady is still a minor. She might not know how to handle the situation like you can. She might not be used to Hector's ways. And you said he's been making you feel gross since you were a tween. You think you are the only tween he's done that to? There were probably more before that, and there will probably be more after. Protect them. Don't invite this this... person to what is supposed to be a celebration of your upcoming marriage.


If your mother protests, explain what you explained to us. "Mom, Hector has been saying suggestive things and making me feel uncomfortable since I was (insert age here). I am done with dealing with this. He looks down peoples dresses for cripes sake! Some of the people he does that to are minors. Shouldn't we protect them? And what about the other ladies? Don't they have a right to feel and be safe?"

I am sure other ehellions can come up with better wording, but your OP threw up red flags for me. This man looks down people's dresses, and not even the woman he does it to will not call him out on it? Something is very wrong with that.

edited to add a word.

[cicero]

I would not have Hector at a party I hosted or where I was the guest of honor. That would be my hill to die on. However, Hortense herself isn't my hill. So I would leave that part up to your mother, as a compromise. If, to make her happy, Hortense should be invited solo, I would be willing to bend etiquette. If she prefers that Hortense not be invited solo, then she is the one to deal with the fall out.

I agree with this.  Hector is a creep and the OP and her female guests should not be forced to endure his company for the sake of etiquette.  Hortense chooses to stay with him - which is her choice - but it doesn't mean anyone else has to put up with him.

These are these are my thoughts exactly.

add me to this camp.

If I were in your shoes, OP, my basic red line would be 'I don't care how this gets done but Hector will not be at *any* gathering that I am hosting/GOH. I will not subject *my* friends to his behavior, period, end of discussion. Our options are to invite Hortense alone or to invite neither. Since they are your close friends I will let you make the call'

[Psychopoesie]

I am with team "Do not invite hector, but invite hortense."

A few things really stuck out to me in your OP.

He makes me feel really gross, in fact.  He's been doing so since I was a tween.  I do not tolerate his behavior, and I avoid being at events where he is.


Here's the issue: Hortense is close to my mom.  I would love to invite Hortense to the party, for my mom's sake. I will not invite Hector because I can't trust for one minute that he won't try peering down some fifteen-year-old's dress or telling my future S-I-L just how lovely she looks in a tone that will make her want to shower with a steel brush and bleach.  I will not spend the evening running interference on his lewdness.


Those two comments really stuck out, especially the bolded. He has been making you feel gross since you were a tween. That would be what, eleven, twelve? And not just gross, I'll wager. Maybe he even made you feel unsafe. So you know exactly how your guests are going to feel.

The second thing that stuck out was that second sentence. Peering down a fifteen year old's dress. Fifteen. That means the young lady is still a minor. She might not know how to handle the situation like you can. She might not be used to Hector's ways. And you said he's been making you feel gross since you were a tween. You think you are the only tween he's done that to? There were probably more before that, and there will probably be more after. Protect them. Don't invite this this... person to what is supposed to be a celebration of your upcoming marriage.


If your mother protests, explain what you explained to us. "Mom, Hector has been saying suggestive things and making me feel uncomfortable since I was (insert age here). I am done with dealing with this. He looks down peoples dresses for cripes sake! Some of the people he does that to are minors. Shouldn't we protect them? And what about the other ladies? Don't they have a right to feel and be safe?"

I am sure other ehellions can come up with better wording, but your OP threw up red flags for me. This man looks down people's dresses, and not even the woman he does it to will not call him out on it? Something is very wrong with that.

edited to add a word.

parking my pod here. Well past time to rock the boat on this one. Would be my hill to die on too.

Still remember how creepy it was when one old family friend started talking to my breasts when I was barely a teenager. Go with your instincts on this one, OP. The fallout can't be worse than having another generation of young girls subjected to this behaviour.