Do I have to invite _him_?

[Mel the Redcap]

I am with team "Do not invite hector, but invite hortense."

A few things really stuck out to me in your OP.

He makes me feel really gross, in fact.  He's been doing so since I was a tween.  I do not tolerate his behavior, and I avoid being at events where he is.


Here's the issue: Hortense is close to my mom.  I would love to invite Hortense to the party, for my mom's sake. I will not invite Hector because I can't trust for one minute that he won't try peering down some fifteen-year-old's dress or telling my future S-I-L just how lovely she looks in a tone that will make her want to shower with a steel brush and bleach.  I will not spend the evening running interference on his lewdness.


Those two comments really stuck out, especially the bolded. He has been making you feel gross since you were a tween. That would be what, eleven, twelve? And not just gross, I'll wager. Maybe he even made you feel unsafe. So you know exactly how your guests are going to feel.

The second thing that stuck out was that second sentence. Peering down a fifteen year old's dress. Fifteen. That means the young lady is still a minor. She might not know how to handle the situation like you can. She might not be used to Hector's ways. And you said he's been making you feel gross since you were a tween. You think you are the only tween he's done that to? There were probably more before that, and there will probably be more after. Protect them. Don't invite this this... person to what is supposed to be a celebration of your upcoming marriage.


If your mother protests, explain what you explained to us. "Mom, Hector has been saying suggestive things and making me feel uncomfortable since I was (insert age here). I am done with dealing with this. He looks down peoples dresses for cripes sake! Some of the people he does that to are minors. Shouldn't we protect them? And what about the other ladies? Don't they have a right to feel and be safe?"

I am sure other ehellions can come up with better wording, but your OP threw up red flags for me. This man looks down people's dresses, and not even the woman he does it to will not call him out on it? Something is very wrong with that.

edited to add a word.

parking my pod here. Well past time to rock the boat on this one. Would be my hill to die on too.

Still remember how creepy it was when one old family friend started talking to my breasts when I was barely a teenager. Go with your instincts on this one, OP. The fallout can't be worse than having another generation of young girls subjected to this behaviour.

Sticking another POD here and applauding Nikko-chan's choice of suggested wording!

[Venus193]

I'm agreeing with the two previous posts.  Emphasize to your mother that those are the only choices.

[Margo]

I agreeDon't invite Hector. Make it absolutely clear to you Mom that you do not want Hector at the party,and that if he is there, you won't be.

Lt her know exactly why, and stress that you are not prepared to tolerate his behviour to yourself and are not willing to be associated with an event where he will subject your friends and relatives to the same kind of sexual harassment  (use that term, if your mom or others try to persaude you to let him come)

Explain that you are happy for Hortense to be there and are content to let you mom make the call as to whether Hortense is invited alone, or not invited, or whether mom speaks to her privately to say that she is welcome is she comes alone.

I am also in the camp where it would affect my view of friend, if I were subjected to sexual harassment at their event, and learned that they knew that the pepetrator was likely to behave in that way. I wouldn't necessarily end a friendship over it, but it would affect how I thought of that person, and how much I felt able to trust them and trust their judgement in future.

[MindsEye]

Oh, and FWIW, I'd personally go with not inviting either, and accepting the fallout from my Mom. In part because I don't think it's fair to deliberately set up my guests like that, and in part to set the precedent that I'm not automatically going follow her expectations when it comes to what she thinks I should do, and to establish that I am willing to rock the boat for something that is important to me.

Establishing this before you start planning a wedding, starting a life with your fiance, and possibly adding kids to the mix is very, very useful and while unpleasant at the time can save a lot of grief later.

Yes.  Begin as you mean to go on.  We say that a lot here.  And a change-in-life-status is a great time to put this into action.

[ClaireC79]

Their mindset is more "Obviously the socially prominent Hector should be at our party: otherwise people might gossip about his exclusion

If they all know what he is like the gossip is far more likely to be 'thanfully someone had the balls not to invite him, we could do that next time too'

[YummyMummy66]

Why has no one ever called this person out on their behavior?   

I don't care who he is or where he is at.  If he is looking down anyone's blouse, especially mine, I would be telling him off and not in nice, low words either. 

When he starts in, why isn't anyone stopping him?  Your SIL, "I find that statement highly inappropriate and I am tired of dealing with your crap.  I am telling you now if it does not stop, I will pursue harrassment charges" in a voice that everyone hears.  Eveyrone needs to start telling him this. 

And if anyone catches him peering down a minor's blouse, I would so be telling him, "You do realize she is a minor?   If you don't leave her alone now, I will be calling the police".

[gramma dishes]

This situation is pretty complicated by my parents.  For a lot of complicated reasons to do with small town politics, my immigrant mom's social attitudes, and a teensy dash of moral cowardice, both of my parents would really, really prefer I not rock the boat with this.  Their mindset is more "Obviously the socially prominent Hector should be at our party: otherwise people might gossip about his exclusion and/or have hurt feelings." 

Hortense is more realistic about the whole thing.  If she weren't a divorce-opposing Catholic, they would've split up years earlier.  She realizes he's beyond a boor.

I read every post and I don't think anyone addressed this (bolded) statement.  How can he be "socially prominent" with virtually everyone knowing his heinous proclivities? 

I'd discuss this with my Mom, using pretty much Nikko-chan's wording, stressing that his behavior was bothering YOU personally as early as your early teens or maybe even preteens.  Your parents apparently didn't feel comfortable protecting you from this nonsense, but you aren't going to be responsible for putting other young ladies through it now. 

Your Mom ultimately has two choices.  Invite her friend sans lecherous husband, or don't invite either of them.  Inviting them as a couple is NOT an option!

[RingTailedLemur]

PPs are correct, I think, when they say that whatever you do someone will be upset.

I wouldn't invite either Hortense or Hector.  I would be worried that, if Hortense alone were invited, Hector might tag along.

Also, if they attend your engagement party there is a very real chance that you'll have to invite the, to your wedding too.  Do you want to spend your wedding day worrying what Hector is getting up to?

[shhh its me]

Why has no one ever called this person out on their behavior?   

I don't care who he is or where he is at.  If he is looking down anyone's blouse, especially mine, I would be telling him off and not in nice, low words either. 

When he starts in, why isn't anyone stopping him?  Your SIL, "I find that statement highly inappropriate and I am tired of dealing with your crap.  I am telling you now if it does not stop, I will pursue harrassment charges" in a voice that everyone hears.  Eveyrone needs to start telling him this. 

And if anyone catches him peering down a minor's blouse, I would so be telling him, "You do realize she is a minor?   If you don't leave her alone now, I will be calling the police".

Since what he said to SIL was " you look nice today."  I'm not sure I would go with this for that case.

The innuendo people can confront but I still think it has to be with " why whatever do you mean?"  people making vulgar jokes often will go right ahead and explain them.   

Staring down people dresses I'm really surprised no one has said " Stop leering at my 15 year old's breasts you perv."

[Mikayla]

This is a random comment on the "couples rule", but I have never taken this to be unconditional.  That's because there are also etiquette guidelines about a good hostess doing everything she can to make her guests comfortable.  And I also think there's a guideline stating that anyone whose past behavior indicates they'd be disruptive or obscene can be excluded.  It's interpretation at that point, and I think the latter trumps the former.

Beyond that, my vote is invite neither.  That way, if she does decide she wants Hortense at the wedding, she could include her.  She's not trapped by the rule that all attendees at pre-wedding events must be invited to the wedding.

[nyarlathotep]

This situation is pretty complicated by my parents.  For a lot of complicated reasons to do with small town politics, my immigrant mom's social attitudes, and a teensy dash of moral cowardice, both of my parents would really, really prefer I not rock the boat with this.  Their mindset is more "Obviously the socially prominent Hector should be at our party: otherwise people might gossip about his exclusion and/or have hurt feelings." 

Hortense is more realistic about the whole thing.  If she weren't a divorce-opposing Catholic, they would've split up years earlier.  She realizes he's beyond a boor.

I read every post and I don't think anyone addressed this (bolded) statement.  How can he be "socially prominent" with virtually everyone knowing his heinous proclivities? 

You'd be surprised what some people would let men like this get away with

[Iris]

This situation is pretty complicated by my parents.  For a lot of complicated reasons to do with small town politics, my immigrant mom's social attitudes, and a teensy dash of moral cowardice, both of my parents would really, really prefer I not rock the boat with this.  Their mindset is more "Obviously the socially prominent Hector should be at our party: otherwise people might gossip about his exclusion and/or have hurt feelings." 

Hortense is more realistic about the whole thing.  If she weren't a divorce-opposing Catholic, they would've split up years earlier.  She realizes he's beyond a boor.

I read every post and I don't think anyone addressed this (bolded) statement.  How can he be "socially prominent" with virtually everyone knowing his heinous proclivities? 

You'd be surprised what some people would let men like this get away with

I wouldn't, but the 15 year-old thing does puzzle me. IME some sorry excuses for husbands sadly will want wives to deal with lecherous behaviour quietly or simply put up with it to avoid social embarrassment but I have never known a man who would quietly ignore someone ogling his daughter.

[LifeOnPluto]

I'm also in the camp of not inviting either Hortense or Hector. Hopefully your mum will accept this, and not invite them behind your back or anything like that!

Otherwise, if H and H absolutely HAVE to come, I'd ask your parents to speak with Hortense about reining Hector in. They don't have to say anything overt like "Tell your husband not to perve on the underage girls!" It can be more subtle like "Some of our young female relatives will be attending this party. It's going to be a classy affair. We want everything to run smoothly." etc.

Then I'd ask a few male friends or relatives to keep an eye on Hector. The slightest sign of sleaziness, get them to kick him out.

[Curly Wurly Doggie Breath]

Put a Gibbs style marine on 'Guard/minder' duty on Hector.

Guys won't want their galls being treated to the 'special Hector attention' You should get a lot of offers 

[Phoebe]

This situation is pretty complicated by my parents.  For a lot of complicated reasons to do with small town politics, my immigrant mom's social attitudes, and a teensy dash of moral cowardice, both of my parents would really, really prefer I not rock the boat with this.  Their mindset is more "Obviously the socially prominent Hector should be at our party: otherwise people might gossip about his exclusion and/or have hurt feelings." 

Hortense is more realistic about the whole thing.  If she weren't a divorce-opposing Catholic, they would've split up years earlier.  She realizes he's beyond a boor.

I read every post and I don't think anyone addressed this (bolded) statement.  How can he be "socially prominent" with virtually everyone knowing his heinous proclivities? 

You'd be surprised what some people would let men like this get away with

Exactly.  You only need to turn on the news or glance at newspaper headlines to hear about dozens and dozens of examples.