Author Topic: Do I have to invite _him_?  (Read 14255 times)

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Maude

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Re: Do I have to invite _him_?
« Reply #90 on: September 11, 2013, 01:33:24 AM »
A PP suggested a "girls only" thing. An afternoon tea (high tea) would be lovely. This is not to be confused with a Bridal Shower. After an hour or so of "get-togethering" your fiancÚ makes his appearance and together you receive the congratulations of all in attendance. The male members of the family also arrive at this time closely followed by any other guests you wish to have help you celebrate.

It does make for a long afternoon /evening but it skirts the issue of Having An Engagement Party.

TootsNYC

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Re: Do I have to invite _him_?
« Reply #91 on: September 11, 2013, 12:27:05 PM »
I think if you want to exclude him, you need to own it.

you need to go directly to the woman and, in person, say, "I want to invite you to this party, because you know how very much we love you. But I specifically am not going to invite your husband. I wanted to explain to you why, so you will understand. He stares at my boobs; he makes creepy, lewd comments with a tone of voice that gives me the willies and then says, 'what? i just said something ordinary!' if you challenge him. Basically, he sexually harasses every woman he comes into contact with, even if they're 15 years old. I would be a really bad hostess if I subjected my friends and relatives to this. I just can't--I've never felt safe around him, ever. Other friends and relatives have expressed this to me as well.
   Now that this is my event, I will not do that to my guests. You may not bring your husband. However, you know how very much I love you, and I would really like for you to come.
    I understand how unusual this is, however, and I know that it must strike at your sense of loyalty. I am truly sorry if this hurts you. I will certainly understand if you decide not to come. But I'd be greatly grateful if you would be able to attend."

Danika

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Re: Do I have to invite _him_?
« Reply #92 on: September 11, 2013, 02:02:07 PM »
I think if you want to exclude him, you need to own it.

you need to go directly to the woman and, in person, say, "I want to invite you to this party, because you know how very much we love you. But I specifically am not going to invite your husband. I wanted to explain to you why, so you will understand. He stares at my boobs; he makes creepy, lewd comments with a tone of voice that gives me the willies and then says, 'what? i just said something ordinary!' if you challenge him. Basically, he sexually harasses every woman he comes into contact with, even if they're 15 years old. I would be a really bad hostess if I subjected my friends and relatives to this. I just can't--I've never felt safe around him, ever. Other friends and relatives have expressed this to me as well.
   Now that this is my event, I will not do that to my guests. You may not bring your husband. However, you know how very much I love you, and I would really like for you to come.
    I understand how unusual this is, however, and I know that it must strike at your sense of loyalty. I am truly sorry if this hurts you. I will certainly understand if you decide not to come. But I'd be greatly grateful if you would be able to attend."

POD. I'm in complete agreement.

A few pages back, I mentioned that I didn't invite a nasty aunt to my wedding. I don't regret that. What I do regret is that I also didn't invite her adult son (my cousin) because he lived with her. I had nothing against him. I knew he wouldn't come without her. I was afraid she'd see the invitation and try to come anyway. So I just didn't invite either of them.

Years later, I sent my cousin a long email apologizing for not inviting him and explaining to him that he was innocent and it was only because I wasn't inviting his mother.

He was entitled to know the truth and I should have told him from the beginning. I was afraid of the rejection that he wouldn't come even if I invited him. But I should have been honest with him from the get go. I was afraid to have an uncomfortable conversation. I thought it would be more subtle and more polite to not address the issue at all, but I regret that in hindsight.

Cousin and I were never close so it didn't ruin any relationship, but he shouldn't have been punished for her behavior.

gramma dishes

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Re: Do I have to invite _him_?
« Reply #93 on: September 11, 2013, 02:09:38 PM »


POD. I'm in complete agreement.

A few pages back, I mentioned that I didn't invite a nasty aunt to my wedding. I don't regret that. What I do regret is that I also didn't invite her adult son (my cousin) because he lived with her. I had nothing against him. I knew he wouldn't come without her. I was afraid she'd see the invitation and try to come anyway. So I just didn't invite either of them.

Years later, I sent my cousin a long email apologizing for not inviting him and explaining to him that he was innocent and it was only because I wasn't inviting his mother.

He was entitled to know the truth and I should have told him from the beginning. I was afraid of the rejection that he wouldn't come even if I invited him. But I should have been honest with him from the get go. I was afraid to have an uncomfortable conversation. I thought it would be more subtle and more polite to not address the issue at all, but I regret that in hindsight.

Cousin and I were never close so it didn't ruin any relationship, but he shouldn't have been punished for her behavior.

But you see, in a way he really was at least partially responsible because you knew already, probably from previous experience, that if you invited him he would either not come at all or he would bring her with him.  So you actually did have good reason not to invite him, even though he wasn't the one you really were concerned about. 

ETA:  However, I do think it was nice of you to apologize.  I'm curious though.  How did he respond to your telling him you really really didn't want his mother there?

Danika

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Re: Do I have to invite _him_?
« Reply #94 on: September 11, 2013, 07:45:25 PM »


POD. I'm in complete agreement.

A few pages back, I mentioned that I didn't invite a nasty aunt to my wedding. I don't regret that. What I do regret is that I also didn't invite her adult son (my cousin) because he lived with her. I had nothing against him. I knew he wouldn't come without her. I was afraid she'd see the invitation and try to come anyway. So I just didn't invite either of them.

Years later, I sent my cousin a long email apologizing for not inviting him and explaining to him that he was innocent and it was only because I wasn't inviting his mother.

He was entitled to know the truth and I should have told him from the beginning. I was afraid of the rejection that he wouldn't come even if I invited him. But I should have been honest with him from the get go. I was afraid to have an uncomfortable conversation. I thought it would be more subtle and more polite to not address the issue at all, but I regret that in hindsight.

Cousin and I were never close so it didn't ruin any relationship, but he shouldn't have been punished for her behavior.

But you see, in a way he really was at least partially responsible because you knew already, probably from previous experience, that if you invited him he would either not come at all or he would bring her with him.  So you actually did have good reason not to invite him, even though he wasn't the one you really were concerned about. 

ETA:  However, I do think it was nice of you to apologize.  I'm curious though.  How did he respond to your telling him you really really didn't want his mother there?

And, and he was a real bully to me when we were children. But I try not to hold adults responsible for how they acted as children.

He did reply to my email and said he understood, and never addressed the portion about his mother's behavior. On that side of the family, the attitude has always been "We're faaaaamily. You are always forgiven for treating someone poorly, because you're family and they have to take it." But generally, I was the doormat/scapegoat and this cousin, his mother, my mother and another cousin were the aggressors. They're not pleased about the fact that I won't allow them to treat me awfully any longer.

Phoebe

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Re: Do I have to invite _him_?
« Reply #95 on: September 11, 2013, 07:55:31 PM »
Before we go nuts on this kind of speculation I think we should wait for an update from lellah.  I refuse to believe that nothing can be done about someone like this.

Oh, you definitely *can* do something about people like this.

The problem is that quite often people don't really want to. The other problem is that when you stand up to someone who is used to treating people badly and getting away with it, there can be unpleasant consequences that you have to accept as part of the price of doing so.


And it wouldn't be OP, but her parents who would suffer the brunt of the consequences.

My feeling is that if the OP's parents knew about this guy's behavior and how he was treating their daughter over the years yet kept inviting him over anyway, then that's just tough beans if they get the brunt of the consequences.

cicero

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Re: Do I have to invite _him_?
« Reply #96 on: September 12, 2013, 02:24:00 AM »
I think if you want to exclude him, you need to own it.

you need to go directly to the woman and, in person, say, "I want to invite you to this party, because you know how very much we love you. But I specifically am not going to invite your husband. I wanted to explain to you why, so you will understand. He stares at my boobs; he makes creepy, lewd comments with a tone of voice that gives me the willies and then says, 'what? i just said something ordinary!' if you challenge him. Basically, he sexually harasses every woman he comes into contact with, even if they're 15 years old. I would be a really bad hostess if I subjected my friends and relatives to this. I just can't--I've never felt safe around him, ever. Other friends and relatives have expressed this to me as well.
   Now that this is my event, I will not do that to my guests. You may not bring your husband. However, you know how very much I love you, and I would really like for you to come.
    I understand how unusual this is, however, and I know that it must strike at your sense of loyalty. I am truly sorry if this hurts you. I will certainly understand if you decide not to come. But I'd be greatly grateful if you would be able to attend."
I agree with toots that you need to own this.

You're getting married, you're a grown up, you need to take charge.

though i *understand* the suggestions to make a girls-only event, I don't *like it* - basically, it's enabling this creep to continue doing what he wants, and it's continuing the line of "oh that's just the way he is".  it's saying "well, we can't not invite him so we'll just have this girls-only thing so he won't expect to be invited".

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Danika

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Re: Do I have to invite _him_?
« Reply #97 on: September 12, 2013, 03:21:00 AM »
I think if you want to exclude him, you need to own it.

you need to go directly to the woman and, in person, say, "I want to invite you to this party, because you know how very much we love you. But I specifically am not going to invite your husband. I wanted to explain to you why, so you will understand. He stares at my boobs; he makes creepy, lewd comments with a tone of voice that gives me the willies and then says, 'what? i just said something ordinary!' if you challenge him. Basically, he sexually harasses every woman he comes into contact with, even if they're 15 years old. I would be a really bad hostess if I subjected my friends and relatives to this. I just can't--I've never felt safe around him, ever. Other friends and relatives have expressed this to me as well.
   Now that this is my event, I will not do that to my guests. You may not bring your husband. However, you know how very much I love you, and I would really like for you to come.
    I understand how unusual this is, however, and I know that it must strike at your sense of loyalty. I am truly sorry if this hurts you. I will certainly understand if you decide not to come. But I'd be greatly grateful if you would be able to attend."
I agree with toots that you need to own this.

You're getting married, you're a grown up, you need to take charge.

though i *understand* the suggestions to make a girls-only event, I don't *like it* - basically, it's enabling this creep to continue doing what he wants, and it's continuing the line of "oh that's just the way he is".  it's saying "well, we can't not invite him so we'll just have this girls-only thing so he won't expect to be invited".

And, having a girls-only event would be allowing him to control you. His sleaziness would be inadvertently dictating what kind of engagement party you wanted to have. And that excludes your fiance. Doesn't fiance have a right to have an engagement party? Finally, it only delays the inevitable. Come time to send out the wedding invitations, you'd still have to find a way to exclude Hector.

cicero

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Re: Do I have to invite _him_?
« Reply #98 on: September 12, 2013, 03:44:51 AM »
I think if you want to exclude him, you need to own it.

you need to go directly to the woman and, in person, say, "I want to invite you to this party, because you know how very much we love you. But I specifically am not going to invite your husband. I wanted to explain to you why, so you will understand. He stares at my boobs; he makes creepy, lewd comments with a tone of voice that gives me the willies and then says, 'what? i just said something ordinary!' if you challenge him. Basically, he sexually harasses every woman he comes into contact with, even if they're 15 years old. I would be a really bad hostess if I subjected my friends and relatives to this. I just can't--I've never felt safe around him, ever. Other friends and relatives have expressed this to me as well.
   Now that this is my event, I will not do that to my guests. You may not bring your husband. However, you know how very much I love you, and I would really like for you to come.
    I understand how unusual this is, however, and I know that it must strike at your sense of loyalty. I am truly sorry if this hurts you. I will certainly understand if you decide not to come. But I'd be greatly grateful if you would be able to attend."
I agree with toots that you need to own this.

You're getting married, you're a grown up, you need to take charge.

though i *understand* the suggestions to make a girls-only event, I don't *like it* - basically, it's enabling this creep to continue doing what he wants, and it's continuing the line of "oh that's just the way he is".  it's saying "well, we can't not invite him so we'll just have this girls-only thing so he won't expect to be invited".

And, having a girls-only event would be allowing him to control you. His sleaziness would be inadvertently dictating what kind of engagement party you wanted to have. And that excludes your fiance. Doesn't fiance have a right to have an engagement party? Finally, it only delays the inevitable. Come time to send out the wedding invitations, you'd still have to find a way to exclude Hector.
exactly. the OP can't forget that the engagement party is but one in a series of lifetime events that Hector will expect to be/family will expect Hector to be invited to.

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Pen^2

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Re: Do I have to invite _him_?
« Reply #99 on: September 12, 2013, 04:39:03 AM »
POD the above sentiments.

It doesn't have to be a big production of not inviting him or anything, but yes, it needs to be not skirted around. Because there are going to be many other events (birthdays etc.) in the future as well, and they can't all be ladies only or whatever. It's impractical. There'll be a point where it's going to have to just be a straightforward case of not inviting the guy. Fortunately, once the case is made clear, then it doesn't have to be done again, and any pressuring by parents or whomever can be met with insistent bean-dipping and other strategies.

I know this hasn't been raised, but I just want to say that not wanting a sleazebag who makes you feel uncomfortable is not a SS thing to do at all. I think a lot of people fear that being insistent upon anything wedding-related makes them a bridezilla or a special snowflake automatically, but that isn't true when it's something this obviously reasonable. It's pretty clear cut here: inviting the guy will be unfair to the guests and the hosts. The guests either get leered at or are treated to the knowledge that their loved ones are being leered at (I'm assuming this guy only leers at women, so the lucky men get to watch/find out about it later), and the hosts have to own the knowledge that they created the opportunity for that to happen. I don't think I'd be able to go through with inviting any young ladies knowing that I was allowing that guy to be there and be slimy at them. That just isn't fair on the guests. So I feel it's best to start the not inviting thing now for the sake of all the other guests. It takes a big spine, though, and it makes you feel very uncomfortable, but the event and everything thereafter will be much more pleasant (at least it was in my experience).

Surround yourself whenever possible with people who love you and treat you like a person instead of an object or a pawn piece, and don't make or accept excuses for those who behave otherwise. I know my husband has become a lot happier since I started practicing this, and I hope the OP's fiance is the same way.

aussie_chick

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Re: Do I have to invite _him_?
« Reply #100 on: September 12, 2013, 05:22:15 AM »
POD to the 'own it' posters.
Also I think owning it now is far easier than owning it at the time of the wedding. Forgive my lack of wedding etiquette knowledge (unmarried woman here!) but if you invite someone to the engagement party, aren't you suggesting an invite to the wedding will also be forthcoming? Therefore better to stamp out any invitation to this horrible man now than having to go through all of this again when the wedding happens.

Venus193

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Re: Do I have to invite _him_?
« Reply #101 on: September 12, 2013, 07:41:59 AM »
POD to the 'own it' posters.
Also I think owning it now is far easier than owning it at the time of the wedding. Forgive my lack of wedding etiquette knowledge (unmarried woman here!) but if you invite someone to the engagement party, aren't you suggesting an invite to the wedding will also be forthcoming? Therefore better to stamp out any invitation to this horrible man now than having to go through all of this again when the wedding happens.

Absolutely.  This is the time to take a stand on this.

doodlemor

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Re: Do I have to invite _him_?
« Reply #102 on: September 13, 2013, 12:12:17 AM »
Coming in late to this one, but I have been thoughtfully following it.

The more I read here, the more that I concur with those who say to "own it," and to have a conversation with Hortense.  This is absolutely the time to cut this creepy guy from your life.  If Hortense decides to be affronted, then she will just be hurting herself and limiting her social life.

Years ago when I was young and na´ve there were two different men we knew who wanted to hug me against their chests.  This never happened when my DH was around, of course.  I still feel annoyed and taken advantage of, that they each managed to do this several times for whatever cheap thrill it gave them. 

I still have great regrets that I didn't call these guys out on their behavior.  They knew exactly what they were doing, as does Horace.  You have a chance to stop some of his nonsense, and I suspect that you will regret this in later years if you don't.  If you are disgusted with him now, and I love your picture of showering with a wire brush, just think how angry you would be down the line when he says suggestive things to your teenage daughter.


PS We gave the cut direct to one of the chest hugger guys.  My mother was married to the second one, so that made the problem more difficult.  Fortunately, they moved out of state and we only saw them several times a year, and my children were always included in those visits.  That made it hard for the old goat to get me alone, and I was on my alert by then, too.  I never told my mother, because I felt that it would really hurt her feelings, and that if she confronted him he would accuse me of misinterpreting a kind gesture.  Sound familiar?

Venus193

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Re: Do I have to invite _him_?
« Reply #103 on: September 13, 2013, 07:21:27 AM »
People like Horace get away with this sort of thing because their wives and other relatives go into denial.  They can't handle the truth.  Either it frightens them too much or they fear the wrath of public opinion.

That's when somebody has to get a spine and dump the cold water on them.

barefoot_girl

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Re: Do I have to invite _him_?
« Reply #104 on: September 15, 2013, 10:51:51 AM »
Why doesn't Hortense rein in Hector? She presumably knows what a perve her husband is, why isn't SHE keeping an eye on him at parties and making sure he doesn't harrass women?