Author Topic: privacy and volunteering  (Read 11512 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Teenyweeny

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1664
Re: privacy and volunteering
« Reply #75 on: September 19, 2013, 08:59:24 AM »
I take great offense to the attitude that it's no big deal to share others contact info! I was the victim of stalking TWICE as a late teenager. Both were customers at the store where I worked. Small town and idiot boss that thought it was no big deal to reveal my last name to a couple of creeps who were at least twice my age. I am shocked that someone would continue to wave off the privacy concerns of others just because you haven't had the horrible experience of having your phone number in the wrong hands. Identity theft is simple to fix? Yeah, good luck with that one.

I very sorry that that happened to you, but that is palpably a different thing to the scenario I'm talking about. If I was working somewhere, and some guy asked for info about my colleague, I wouldn't give it either! Your boss was an idiot, that's for sure.

I also would not "wave off" somebody's privacy concerns. I've said that repeatedly. What I am attempting to explain is that unless somebody told me, I wouldn't assume that they even had those concerns.



wildkitty

  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 34
Re: privacy and volunteering
« Reply #76 on: September 19, 2013, 09:10:03 AM »
That's the whole point! You should not be giving out anyone's contact info without their express permission. Your logic is backwards. You're saying it's okay to give out contact info unless you were told not to. In actuality you should only give out contact info if you have been given permission in advance.  Look at it this way, say your coworker had her lunch sitting on her desk. She gets called away for a moment and another coworker comes to you and asks if he can have other coworker's sandwich. Would you give it to him? If your answer is "No, of course not!" than why would you give out any other property? My contact info is my property and not yours to give out at will.

Teenyweeny

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1664
Re: privacy and volunteering
« Reply #77 on: September 19, 2013, 09:15:54 AM »
As an aside, I think part of the reason that the advice of  'guard your info if you don't want to be stalked' really bugs me is that it completely ignores the main reason that people get stalked, which is that they had the misfortune to get involved with somebody who later turned out to be a nut.

It's like the rape prevention advice which works great if you are talking about protecting against a stranger, but is less relevant for the majority of victims, who know their attacker. It sidesteps the larger issue to focus on the nebulous bogeyman, because it's easy to tell women not to give out their phone numbers, but it's hard to create a culture in which persistence is not viewed as 'romantic', and in which 'no, go away' is respected.



Teenyweeny

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1664
Re: privacy and volunteering
« Reply #78 on: September 19, 2013, 09:19:07 AM »
That's the whole point! You should not be giving out anyone's contact info without their express permission. Your logic is backwards. You're saying it's okay to give out contact info unless you were told not to. In actuality you should only give out contact info if you have been given permission in advance.  Look at it this way, say your coworker had her lunch sitting on her desk. She gets called away for a moment and another coworker comes to you and asks if he can have other coworker's sandwich. Would you give it to him? If your answer is "No, of course not!" than why would you give out any other property? My contact info is my property and not yours to give out at will.

That's a flawed comparison. If I give away Jane's sandwich, she has a 100% risk of no sandwich. If I give Jane's number to Bob so that he can arrange the office Christmas dinner, there's a much smaller risk that Bob will turn out to be a creepy nutter.

Besides which, being given to other people is not the purpose of Jane's sandwich. It is exactly the purpose of Jane's phone number.



wildkitty

  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 34
Re: privacy and volunteering
« Reply #79 on: September 19, 2013, 09:23:36 AM »
No, good grief no! Stalking is not the only reason people do not want their phone numbers given out. I think the only reason it was brought up so often was your waving off so many poster's concerns and continually stating that stalking is rare. Being dismissive of others experience is going to cause offense every time.

wildkitty

  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 34
Re: privacy and volunteering
« Reply #80 on: September 19, 2013, 09:28:13 AM »
That's the whole point! You should not be giving out anyone's contact info without their express permission. Your logic is backwards. You're saying it's okay to give out contact info unless you were told not to. In actuality you should only give out contact info if you have been given permission in advance.  Look at it this way, say your coworker had her lunch sitting on her desk. She gets called away for a moment and another coworker comes to you and asks if he can have other coworker's sandwich. Would you give it to him? If your answer is "No, of course not!" than why would you give out any other property? My contact info is my property and not yours to give out at will.

That's a flawed comparison. If I give away Jane's sandwich, she has a 100% risk of no sandwich. If I give Jane's number to Bob so that he can arrange the office Christmas dinner, there's a much smaller risk that Bob will turn out to be a creepy nutter.

Besides which, being given to other people is not the purpose of Jane's sandwich. It is exactly the purpose of Jane's phone number.

Again, you're missing the point. The very fact is that it is not your sandwich to give and it is not your phone number to give. Simple as that. You don't get to decide who has access to someone else's belongings.

Teenyweeny

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1664
Re: privacy and volunteering
« Reply #81 on: September 19, 2013, 09:35:54 AM »
No, good grief no! Stalking is not the only reason people do not want their phone numbers given out. I think the only reason it was brought up so often was your waving off so many poster's concerns and continually stating that stalking is rare. Being dismissive of others experience is going to cause offense every time.

Stalking by strangers is rare. I went and looked up (and posted) the stats. That's not me being dismissive, that's just the truth. I have never said that stalking victims should be brushed off, I feel very sorry for anybody who has to go through that kind of an experience.

I've also argued that sharing numbers between a group in general is low risk (for the majority of people), because one can simply not pick up the phone if it's that the calls are annoying. Anything more serious than that is much less likely, to the point where it wouldn't cross my mind if I were the group coordinator.

I guess we disagree about the 'phone number as property' thing, because to me they're a special kind of property, that's meant to be shared.



Psychopoesie

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 801
Re: privacy and volunteering
« Reply #82 on: September 19, 2013, 09:53:53 AM »
No, good grief no! Stalking is not the only reason people do not want their phone numbers given out. I think the only reason it was brought up so often was your waving off so many poster's concerns and continually stating that stalking is rare. Being dismissive of others experience is going to cause offense every time.

Stalking by strangers is rare. I went and looked up (and posted) the stats. That's not me being dismissive, that's just the truth. I have never said that stalking victims should be brushed off, I feel very sorry for anybody who has to go through that kind of an experience.

I've also argued that sharing numbers between a group in general is low risk (for the majority of people), because one can simply not pick up the phone if it's that the calls are annoying. Anything more serious than that is much less likely, to the point where it wouldn't cross my mind if I were the group coordinator.

I guess we disagree about the 'phone number as property' thing, because to me they're a special kind of property, that's meant to be shared.

I don't understand why any of my personal information (including my phone number) can be something that's meant to be shared without my permission.

How does the person sharing it (without my consent) know that I'd make the same choice about who gets that information (assuming that matters)?

How does the person know what risks or issues the release of that information may cause me personally?

Teenyweeny

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1664
Re: privacy and volunteering
« Reply #83 on: September 19, 2013, 09:58:07 AM »
No, good grief no! Stalking is not the only reason people do not want their phone numbers given out. I think the only reason it was brought up so often was your waving off so many poster's concerns and continually stating that stalking is rare. Being dismissive of others experience is going to cause offense every time.

Stalking by strangers is rare. I went and looked up (and posted) the stats. That's not me being dismissive, that's just the truth. I have never said that stalking victims should be brushed off, I feel very sorry for anybody who has to go through that kind of an experience.

I've also argued that sharing numbers between a group in general is low risk (for the majority of people), because one can simply not pick up the phone if it's that the calls are annoying. Anything more serious than that is much less likely, to the point where it wouldn't cross my mind if I were the group coordinator.

I guess we disagree about the 'phone number as property' thing, because to me they're a special kind of property, that's meant to be shared.

I don't understand why any of my personal information (including my phone number) can be something that's meant to be shared without my permission.

How does the person sharing it (without my consent) know that I'd make the same choice about who gets that information (assuming that matters)?

How does the person know what risks or issues the release of that information may cause me personally?

They don't, unless you tell them. I'm just saying, if you give a group coordinator your number (or you know that they will be able to access it), then I think that the onus is on you to say, "please don't share my details", because clearly not-sharing is not everybody's default setting. That request was not honoured in the OP's case, and I am not excusing that.

That goes double if you have additional safety concerns that elevate your risk of negative consequences.



Mel the Redcap

  • Scheming Foreign Hussy!
  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 841
Re: privacy and volunteering
« Reply #84 on: September 19, 2013, 10:00:30 AM »
It does not matter how rare stalking is, or how likely it is that giving someone's details out will cause problems, or anything about anyone's personal situation.

It's very simple. If you are asked for someone's contact details, and you don't know whether or not they would be OK with them being shared, there are four possible outcomes.

Either you share them, and it turns out that they're OK with the idea - this is fine.
Or you share them, and they're NOT OK with the idea - this is BAD, and you can't take back the sharing. You cannot fix this.
Or you don't share them, and it turns out that they would have been OK with it - this is fine, you or they can still contact the person who wanted to get hold of them.
Or you don't share them, and it turns out that they would NOT have been OK with it - this is fine, you have protected them.

The ONLY way you can get a bad result is if you share someone else's details without first ascertaining whether or not they are happy with this. So don't! Whether you would be fine with it yourself or not, whether you think there's a danger or not, whether you've seen them giving their details to other people or not, it doesn't matter - protecting their personal details should be the default!

And yes, phone numbers are meant to be shared... WITH PEOPLE THE OWNER IS HAPPY COMMUNICATING WITH, and nobody else.
"Set aphasia to stun!"

LeveeWoman

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4137
Re: privacy and volunteering
« Reply #85 on: September 19, 2013, 10:01:22 AM »
No, good grief no! Stalking is not the only reason people do not want their phone numbers given out. I think the only reason it was brought up so often was your waving off so many poster's concerns and continually stating that stalking is rare. Being dismissive of others experience is going to cause offense every time.

Stalking by strangers is rare. I went and looked up (and posted) the stats. That's not me being dismissive, that's just the truth. I have never said that stalking victims should be brushed off, I feel very sorry for anybody who has to go through that kind of an experience.

I've also argued that sharing numbers between a group in general is low risk (for the majority of people), because one can simply not pick up the phone if it's that the calls are annoying. Anything more serious than that is much less likely, to the point where it wouldn't cross my mind if I were the group coordinator.

I guess we disagree about the 'phone number as property' thing, because to me they're a special kind of property, that's meant to be shared.

Other than your opinion, do you have any kind of authority to back up this assertion?

Teenyweeny

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1664
Re: privacy and volunteering
« Reply #86 on: September 19, 2013, 10:02:34 AM »
No, good grief no! Stalking is not the only reason people do not want their phone numbers given out. I think the only reason it was brought up so often was your waving off so many poster's concerns and continually stating that stalking is rare. Being dismissive of others experience is going to cause offense every time.

Stalking by strangers is rare. I went and looked up (and posted) the stats. That's not me being dismissive, that's just the truth. I have never said that stalking victims should be brushed off, I feel very sorry for anybody who has to go through that kind of an experience.

I've also argued that sharing numbers between a group in general is low risk (for the majority of people), because one can simply not pick up the phone if it's that the calls are annoying. Anything more serious than that is much less likely, to the point where it wouldn't cross my mind if I were the group coordinator.

I guess we disagree about the 'phone number as property' thing, because to me they're a special kind of property, that's meant to be shared.

Other than your opinion, do you have any kind of authority to back up this assertion?

No, that's why I included the words 'to me'.



MariaE

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4503
  • So many books, so little time
Re: privacy and volunteering
« Reply #87 on: September 19, 2013, 10:04:47 AM »
No, good grief no! Stalking is not the only reason people do not want their phone numbers given out. I think the only reason it was brought up so often was your waving off so many poster's concerns and continually stating that stalking is rare. Being dismissive of others experience is going to cause offense every time.

Stalking by strangers is rare. I went and looked up (and posted) the stats. That's not me being dismissive, that's just the truth. I have never said that stalking victims should be brushed off, I feel very sorry for anybody who has to go through that kind of an experience.

I've also argued that sharing numbers between a group in general is low risk (for the majority of people), because one can simply not pick up the phone if it's that the calls are annoying. Anything more serious than that is much less likely, to the point where it wouldn't cross my mind if I were the group coordinator.

I guess we disagree about the 'phone number as property' thing, because to me they're a special kind of property, that's meant to be shared.

Other than your opinion, do you have any kind of authority to back up this assertion?

How about the fact that in some countries they can be looked up on the internet? And that this information is definitely opt-out rather than opt-in?
(I have no clue about the US, but I know this to be the case in both Denmark and New Zealand, so please for the sake of this argument just assume you're in Denmark :) )
 
Dane by birth, Kiwi by choice

Teenyweeny

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1664
Re: privacy and volunteering
« Reply #88 on: September 19, 2013, 10:11:21 AM »
It does not matter how rare stalking is, or how likely it is that giving someone's details out will cause problems, or anything about anyone's personal situation.

It's very simple. If you are asked for someone's contact details, and you don't know whether or not they would be OK with them being shared, there are four possible outcomes.

Either you share them, and it turns out that they're OK with the idea - this is fine.
Or you share them, and they're NOT OK with the idea - this is BAD, and you can't take back the sharing. You cannot fix this.
Or you don't share them, and it turns out that they would have been OK with it - this is fine, you or they can still contact the person who wanted to get hold of them.
Or you don't share them, and it turns out that they would NOT have been OK with it - this is fine, you have protected them.

The ONLY way you can get a bad result is if you share someone else's details without first ascertaining whether or not they are happy with this. So don't! Whether you would be fine with it yourself or not, whether you think there's a danger or not, whether you've seen them giving their details to other people or not, it doesn't matter - protecting their personal details should be the default!

And yes, phone numbers are meant to be shared... WITH PEOPLE THE OWNER IS HAPPY COMMUNICATING WITH, and nobody else.

Mel, your post made me think of another distinction that I realise that I haven't drawn clearly enough.

I view giving out a list of contacts and being asked for a specific person's details as two things which carry different elements of risk.

If Sue asks me for Jodie's number, I need to be more vigilant, because I am being asked to disclose something. I need to weigh up what I know of Sue, what I know of Jodie's usual practices with her phone number, why Sue is asking for the phone number, and the whole context of the situation. I would definitely be more cautious, because Sue asking for the number from me, and I may not know all of her reasons. 95% of the time (i.e. unless I knew for sure it would be OK), I'd probably ask Jodie first.

When giving out a list of contacts, people are just receiving the list, not asking for anybody's specific details. You are instead risking that somebody within the group might be moved to do bad things with those numbers. I view that as a very different thing. Giving out contact lists is such standard practice for most group projects that I've had experience of, so a person would definitely have to opt out in order to not be included.



LeveeWoman

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4137
Re: privacy and volunteering
« Reply #89 on: September 19, 2013, 10:13:22 AM »
No, good grief no! Stalking is not the only reason people do not want their phone numbers given out. I think the only reason it was brought up so often was your waving off so many poster's concerns and continually stating that stalking is rare. Being dismissive of others experience is going to cause offense every time.

Stalking by strangers is rare. I went and looked up (and posted) the stats. That's not me being dismissive, that's just the truth. I have never said that stalking victims should be brushed off, I feel very sorry for anybody who has to go through that kind of an experience.

I've also argued that sharing numbers between a group in general is low risk (for the majority of people), because one can simply not pick up the phone if it's that the calls are annoying. Anything more serious than that is much less likely, to the point where it wouldn't cross my mind if I were the group coordinator.

I guess we disagree about the 'phone number as property' thing, because to me they're a special kind of property, that's meant to be shared.

Other than your opinion, do you have any kind of authority to back up this assertion?

How about the fact that in some countries they can be looked up on the internet? And that this information is definitely opt-out rather than opt-in?
(I have no clue about the US, but I know this to be the case in both Denmark and New Zealand, so please for the sake of this argument just assume you're in Denmark :) )

I'm in the US so I can assume only how things are done here. Here, you must opt out of your telephone number being listed in either the White Pages and directory assistance. And, you must pay a fee to do it. So, in Snowdragon's case, the release of her number by the coordinator--who had been told not to do it-- made her trouble and expense worth nothing.