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Author Topic: What does "Safety Trumps Etiquette" mean to you?  (Read 8988 times)

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Garden Goblin

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Re: What does "Safety Trumps Etiquette" mean to you?
« Reply #30 on: September 13, 2013, 04:23:27 PM »
Quote
Maybe the disconnect is that I don't think it's rude to ignore "hollas" and you're using that as the cornerstone of your argument.

If you think that is the cornerstone of my argument, no wonder you are having trouble understanding my meaning.  Perhaps the difficulty you are having is there are no hard rules regarding etiquette, thus we have to rely on what particular social groups deem as 'polite' to make the distinction.  Example - in some areas I've lived, it isn't considered 'rude' to open the door and enter someone's three-season porch to knock on the main door.  Therefore, someone who objects to such behavior as a violation of their privacy or whatever will be thought of as 'rude' and 'unfriendly' and be victim blamed with remarks such as 'well if you didn't want anyone coming in why was only the screen shut' and other such behavior.  Note - this example is drawn from actual events.

'Discomfort' trumps 'etiquette'. And I put the quotes there because generally, the person causing the discomfort tends not to be following the 'rules' of etiquette anyway.  It is extremely rude to violate someone else's personal boundaries and the only correct response if a boundary is inadvertently violated is an immediate apology and confirmation that the behavior will not be repeated.

Discomfort is 'safety', because the violation of personal boundaries is a red flag behavior.  Behavior that starts out as merely uncomfortable often escalates, sometimes as far as to full on violence and criminal behavior.

Therefore, if someone is violating a personal boundary of yours, you do not have to be 'nice' and do what many in society deem to be 'polite' - that being, tolerate the violation.

The violation can be something like saying 'can I use this' while walking off with an item of your property.  Often, if you object, you will be called over-reacting or chastised for not being 'nice', especially if it is a small item.  But it is a boundary violation, and you are not, in fact, obligated to do what many in society deem as the 'polite' thing and allow the violation to occur.

Why would you assume she hadn't?

Because the answers to her questions are in those threads.

ETA - Polite doesn't equal doormat is as trite and meaningless a phrase as safety trumps etiquette.  Sadly, to much of society, especially if there are other types of power issues at play, failing to be a doormat will indeed equal rude.  And it is that large section of society I am taking into account when I define my personal view of 'safety trumps etiquette'.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2013, 04:25:50 PM by Garden Goblin »

Curious Cat

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Re: What does "Safety Trumps Etiquette" mean to you?
« Reply #31 on: September 13, 2013, 04:25:43 PM »
Quote
Maybe the disconnect is that I don't think it's rude to ignore "hollas" and you're using that as the cornerstone of your argument.

If you think that is the cornerstone of my argument, no wonder you are having trouble understanding my meaning.  Perhaps the difficulty you are having is there are no hard rules regarding etiquette, thus we have to rely on what particular social groups deem as 'polite' to make the distinction.  Example - in some areas I've lived, it isn't considered 'rude' to open the door and enter someone's three-season porch to knock on the main door.  Therefore, someone who objects to such behavior as a violation of their privacy or whatever will be thought of as 'rude' and 'unfriendly' and be victim blamed with remarks such as 'well if you didn't want anyone coming in why was only the screen shut' and other such behavior.  Note - this example is drawn from actual events.

'Discomfort' trumps 'etiquette'. And I put the quotes there because generally, the person causing the discomfort tends not to be following the 'rules' of etiquette anyway.  It is extremely rude to violate someone else's personal boundaries and the only correct response if a boundary is inadvertently violated is an immediate apology and confirmation that the behavior will not be repeated.

Discomfort is 'safety', because the violation of personal boundaries is a red flag behavior.  Behavior that starts out as merely uncomfortable often escalates, sometimes as far as to full on violence and criminal behavior.

Therefore, if someone is violating a personal boundary of yours, you do not have to be 'nice' and do what many in society deem to be 'polite' - that being, tolerate the violation.

The violation can be something like saying 'can I use this' while walking off with an item of your property.  Often, if you object, you will be called over-reacting or chastised for not being 'nice', especially if it is a small item.  But it is a boundary violation, and you are not, in fact, obligated to do what many in society deem as the 'polite' thing and allow the violation to occur.

Why would you assume she hadn't?

Because the answers to her questions are in those threads.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree because I don't believe the questions she was asking *you* were answered in that thread.   I also found your previous posts quite unclear.

Garden Goblin

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Re: What does "Safety Trumps Etiquette" mean to you?
« Reply #32 on: September 13, 2013, 04:27:47 PM »
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree because I don't believe the questions she was asking *you* were answered in that thread.   I also found your previous posts quite unclear.

Try this one in particular, it contains several examples of the behavior I was discussing - namely, condemning someone as rude for not responding favorably to having their personal boundaries violated, and expecting them to apologize for their behavior.   - http://www.etiquettehell.com/smf/index.php?topic=88753.0

shhh its me

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Re: What does "Safety Trumps Etiquette" mean to you?
« Reply #33 on: September 13, 2013, 04:28:49 PM »
Not engaging the crazy and safety vs etiquette are two different things. I don't know what forum you've been reading, GG, but I don't think I've read that etiquette requires you to respond to "hollas".

Unfortunately, the search feature is disabled, but try these threads for starters.

http://www.etiquettehell.com/smf/index.php?topic=127801.msg2942064#msg2942064
http://www.etiquettehell.com/smf/index.php?topic=95562.0
http://www.etiquettehell.com/smf/index.php?topic=97448.0

Quote
I also don't thinking polite means not standing up for yourself or setting boundaries or standing your ground. Being polite doesn't mean being a victim.

Therefore, my initial statement - Essentially, it means that I do not have to compromise my personal boundaries to spare someone else's 'feelings'.

It means anywhere from 'I'm not willing to be made uncomfortable just to be 'nice'' to 'I'm not willing to enter/remain in a dangerous situation just because it might damage someone's feeling of entitlement'.

I think in most of these cases many of us agree safety has already trumped and changed etiquette. 

Unrelated examples
It used to be rude to refuse a strangers help carrying you bags(such as on a train) it isn't rude anymore.  It not rude to refuse to allow a stranger into your home to use the phone or the restroom.   

I think Miss Manners messed up the answer that answer reads like "if a boy asks every girl in school to prom on the first day of school (each in turn after they decline) none of them can go to prom." well that's not true.  " I'm sorry Jimmy........... I have plans to attend someone else , its too soon to ask , I'll be going with friends , I have plans that evening ."  or even before he has the change to ask "Jimmy I'm rushed at the moment and don't have to chat I'll speak with you tomorrow."   The point wasn't she has to go with Jimmy or stay home but that Jimmy should not KNOW she turned him down and THEN accepted a date from someone else.

The link was broken but here's a MM quote about the exact subject....
Your daughter is not too young to learn how to say no to someone who admires her. It will save you, as well as her, a lot of grief later. And although Miss Manners commends your and her desire to avoid hurting anyone's feelings, you both need to recognize that not all hurt feelings can be avoided. Hurting someone's feelings by making it clear that the young lady is waiting for a better offer would indeed be bad. But everyone, even a vulnerable young gentleman in high school, has to learn to deal with whatever hurt is felt if an invitation is declined or a romantic impulse unrequited. The chief way to avoid rudeness when declining is not to give any excuse. This is also a way to avoid easily detected falsehoods. She need only say, "You're so nice to ask me, but I'm afraid I can't." If the petitioner's mother has not taught him the danger, as well as the rudeness, of asking why not, she should say merely, "I'm sorry, but I have other plans." Even if the other plans are to wait for a more desirable young gentleman to ask.

Goosey

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Re: What does "Safety Trumps Etiquette" mean to you?
« Reply #34 on: September 13, 2013, 04:32:08 PM »
Again, if someone is mad that you politely set your boundaries, that's their bad behavior, not yours, so i'm not seeing "safety trumps etiquette".

Your argument isn't making much sense and the links you post to actually hurt your position in a lot of ways - many are about how the OP shouldn't let people treat her badly and how she should go about stopping the behavior - including firm but polite and escalating if need be. A couple of them I don't even know if you meant to link to them because they don't seem to have anything to do with anything.

Thanks for calling me trite, though. That's peachy.

EllenS

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Re: What does "Safety Trumps Etiquette" mean to you?
« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2013, 04:33:55 PM »
I checked out some of the threads, and while women feeling pressured to "play nice" with obnoxious people does come up frequently, on every one of the threads I read, the preponderance of advice from EHellions seemed heavily in favor of "there is nothing rude about boundaries", or "you are not required to be friendly/allow someone to yell at/grab you" or "you are not required to date everyone who asks".

So, while the theme may exist in society, I don't see it as something being perpetuated on E-Hell.  There are lots of things perpetuated in society, like religious/political proselytizing, snarky comments on people's eating habits, and shameless gift-begging.  Part of the purpose of E-hell is to counteract them.

Though, I have to say - feeling so violated and reacting so extremely to having someone knock on the door of your house, that people's confusion is called "victim-blaming", seems like an unusually strong reaction that is beyond the average person's experience or understanding.

Etiquette is a code of behavior, with regional differences, like a language.  Of course anyone has the right to make up their own spelling and grammar, or speak any language they want to in any corner of the world  - but it is unreasonable to expect everyone to understand you, or blame them for continuing to speak the vernacular.

Garden Goblin

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Re: What does "Safety Trumps Etiquette" mean to you?
« Reply #36 on: September 13, 2013, 04:34:13 PM »
Quote
Your daughter is not too young to learn how to say no to someone who admires her. It will save you, as well as her, a lot of grief later. And although Miss Manners commends your and her desire to avoid hurting anyone's feelings, you both need to recognize that not all hurt feelings can be avoided. Hurting someone's feelings by making it clear that the young lady is waiting for a better offer would indeed be bad.

This continues to be a good example of my meaning.  Yes, in most situations, that is a perfectly adequate response and all that is called for in the situation.

However, if the boy has been making her uncomfortable (isolating her, violating personal boundaries, asking repeatedly, etc... to give a few examples) my point is that 'safety trumps etiquette' and a response of 'no, now leave me alone and don't bother me again' may be acceptable.

Though, I have to say - feeling so violated and reacting so extremely to having someone knock on the door of your house, that people's confusion is called "victim-blaming", seems like an unusually strong reaction that is beyond the average person's experience or understanding.

Please clarify what you are responding to here, as this is not the example I gave.  The example I gave was someone entering part of your home without knocking, then either knocking or calling out.  A three-season porch is a closed off area that is part of the home three seasons out of the year.  Many use it for storage, craft areas, playrooms, etc...  Mine functions as my office.

Thanks for calling me trite, though.

This event did not occur. 
« Last Edit: September 13, 2013, 04:40:45 PM by Garden Goblin »

Goosey

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Re: What does "Safety Trumps Etiquette" mean to you?
« Reply #37 on: September 13, 2013, 04:51:07 PM »
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ETA - Polite doesn't equal doormat is as trite and meaningless a phrase as safety trumps etiquette. 

Since I was the one who brought the "polite doesn't equal doormat" phrase and you called it "trite and meaningless" (btw, how can it be meaningless when it's basically what a huge chunk of this  forum discusses and encourages), I hope you understand my confusion.


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