Bringing back a banned cheer

[gen xer]

The fact that these guys don't take what happened seriously is disturbing, and if they're using the cheer to make a point about that, that is *really* not cool. But if it was something like, oh, some parents remembered the cheer, liked it and started it again with only a vague memory of where it came from, I'd have less of an issue with that.

I don't think it should be banned forever. That gives bad coach too much power. But is it really that hard to avoid it for a few years, anyway? There are a ton of other cheers out there.

I can see where there is a sensitivity issue....but this cheer seems to be the fixation when it is so much more than that.  I have to wonder if banning the cheer will really resolve things in this girls mind.   I would be much less concerned about the cheer than I would be about the attitude of those boys on the team.

I can also see the slippery slope argument - you can ban the cheer but there must be a kajillion things that are going to be reminders for this girl.   The other thing is - while it is admirable to try to be sensitive to this girl and what she has been through it really is up to her and her family to initiate anything with respect to the actions taken by the team.  I don't know that anyone else should be trying to act on her behalf.

[Shoo]

But on the other hand, I do see the slippery slope argument. I feel like the cheer could become, or perhaps already has become, something more than a cheer. Obviously, to the victim and other people (like the OP), it's a reminder of a horrible thing that happened not very long ago. But I worry that to some of the older kids who are encouraging its use, it might also become a kind of protest against what happened to the coach, since they consider what he did "no big deal." It could be used in a harassing way against the victims.

Oh, wow. This hadn't even occurred to me but makes a sick sort of sense--the possibility that the guys may be intentionally using it to harass. Yuck. Poor girl.

Wouldn't this be a strong argument for banning the cheer?

[TurtleDove]

But on the other hand, I do see the slippery slope argument. I feel like the cheer could become, or perhaps already has become, something more than a cheer. Obviously, to the victim and other people (like the OP), it's a reminder of a horrible thing that happened not very long ago. But I worry that to some of the older kids who are encouraging its use, it might also become a kind of protest against what happened to the coach, since they consider what he did "no big deal." It could be used in a harassing way against the victims.

Oh, wow. This hadn't even occurred to me but makes a sick sort of sense--the possibility that the guys may be intentionally using it to harass. Yuck. Poor girl.

This seems like a giant leap to me.  If the boys wanted to make things difficult for the girl this would be a really round about way of doing it, in my opinion.  Based on all we know, I think the cheer is simply catchy and people like it and are not trying to harm the girl or support the old coach. To me, this is not about the girl (or the coach) at all.

[Yvaine]

But on the other hand, I do see the slippery slope argument. I feel like the cheer could become, or perhaps already has become, something more than a cheer. Obviously, to the victim and other people (like the OP), it's a reminder of a horrible thing that happened not very long ago. But I worry that to some of the older kids who are encouraging its use, it might also become a kind of protest against what happened to the coach, since they consider what he did "no big deal." It could be used in a harassing way against the victims.

Oh, wow. This hadn't even occurred to me but makes a sick sort of sense--the possibility that the guys may be intentionally using it to harass. Yuck. Poor girl.

Wouldn't this be a strong argument for banning the cheer?

I'm not sure what you're driving at. Throughout the thread I've argued that the team should avoid the cheer while the victims are still on the team.

[Shoo]

But on the other hand, I do see the slippery slope argument. I feel like the cheer could become, or perhaps already has become, something more than a cheer. Obviously, to the victim and other people (like the OP), it's a reminder of a horrible thing that happened not very long ago. But I worry that to some of the older kids who are encouraging its use, it might also become a kind of protest against what happened to the coach, since they consider what he did "no big deal." It could be used in a harassing way against the victims.

Oh, wow. This hadn't even occurred to me but makes a sick sort of sense--the possibility that the guys may be intentionally using it to harass. Yuck. Poor girl.

Wouldn't this be a strong argument for banning the cheer?

I'm not sure what you're driving at. Throughout the thread I've argued that the team should avoid the cheer while the victims are still on the team.

Sorry, I thought you were agreeing with the slippery slope argument.

[EMuir]

I think that the circumstances of the cheer being brought back matter a lot.  If it was brought back as a way to bully this girl, then that's not good.  If it's a generic cheer, maybe it could be changed in some way to make it different enough to no longer "belong" to the ex-coach, but be familiar enough to boost morale?

[Yvaine]

But on the other hand, I do see the slippery slope argument. I feel like the cheer could become, or perhaps already has become, something more than a cheer. Obviously, to the victim and other people (like the OP), it's a reminder of a horrible thing that happened not very long ago. But I worry that to some of the older kids who are encouraging its use, it might also become a kind of protest against what happened to the coach, since they consider what he did "no big deal." It could be used in a harassing way against the victims.

Oh, wow. This hadn't even occurred to me but makes a sick sort of sense--the possibility that the guys may be intentionally using it to harass. Yuck. Poor girl.

Wouldn't this be a strong argument for banning the cheer?

I'm not sure what you're driving at. Throughout the thread I've argued that the team should avoid the cheer while the victims are still on the team.

Sorry, I thought you were agreeing with the slippery slope argument.

Well, the way I read it, Lynn2000's slippery slope argument was that it might be used to harass the victims if it continues to be used, so I guess I do agree with the slippery slope argument as presented there.

(There's a whole different slippery slope argument in this thread that has to do with banning classic works because of their creators' misbehavior. It makes it a little confusing. But basically I was agreeing with the paragraph I quoted.)

[Curious Cat]

But on the other hand, I do see the slippery slope argument. I feel like the cheer could become, or perhaps already has become, something more than a cheer. Obviously, to the victim and other people (like the OP), it's a reminder of a horrible thing that happened not very long ago. But I worry that to some of the older kids who are encouraging its use, it might also become a kind of protest against what happened to the coach, since they consider what he did "no big deal." It could be used in a harassing way against the victims.

Oh, wow. This hadn't even occurred to me but makes a sick sort of sense--the possibility that the guys may be intentionally using it to harass. Yuck. Poor girl.

This seems like a giant leap to me.  If the boys wanted to make things difficult for the girl this would be a really round about way of doing it, in my opinion.  Based on all we know, I think the cheer is simply catchy and people like it and are not trying to harm the girl or support the old coach. To me, this is not about the girl (or the coach) at all.

I couldn't disagree more.  If they want to make things difficult for her this is the PERFECT way to go about doing it. 

[JeanFromBNA]

If I were her mother, I would be furious with the school and would take this as far up as it needed to get an attitude adjustment, including pursuing this matter against the coach and the school in civil court.

[Yvaine]

But on the other hand, I do see the slippery slope argument. I feel like the cheer could become, or perhaps already has become, something more than a cheer. Obviously, to the victim and other people (like the OP), it's a reminder of a horrible thing that happened not very long ago. But I worry that to some of the older kids who are encouraging its use, it might also become a kind of protest against what happened to the coach, since they consider what he did "no big deal." It could be used in a harassing way against the victims.

Oh, wow. This hadn't even occurred to me but makes a sick sort of sense--the possibility that the guys may be intentionally using it to harass. Yuck. Poor girl.

This seems like a giant leap to me.  If the boys wanted to make things difficult for the girl this would be a really round about way of doing it, in my opinion.  Based on all we know, I think the cheer is simply catchy and people like it and are not trying to harm the girl or support the old coach. To me, this is not about the girl (or the coach) at all.

I couldn't disagree more.  If they want to make things difficult for her this is the PERFECT way to go about doing it.

Yup. She would know what they were doing, while they'd have plausible deniability to anyone else (But it's just so catchy!").  It might also be a coincidence, but it does arouse a little suspicion that these are the same guys who are condoning the coach's offense.

[Goosey]

I think the OP has gotten some good advice about talking to the coach or the girl's mother about the history of the chant and its potential effect on the victims. Maybe it would be proactive to have a s*xual harassment seminar with the kids as well so that they can learn why what the coach did was a wrong (and disgusting) action.

I don't see much purpose in assigning negative motives to people doing the chant. We don't know the motivations and probably never will, but going out of our way to make it a conspiracy to harass someone is going a little too far. Even the OP said she liked this chant until the coach was caught. It may be just that this is the kids' way of moving on from the incident (that is, they're not associating the chant with the coach but with the team), but not everyone is ready to do that yet.

[Lynn2000]

It's a tough situation. On the one hand, people could be using the cheer in a totally innocent way, not even knowing the backstory or not connecting it to the cheer, having no clue they're upsetting anyone. Maybe they would be happy to stop using it if someone objected. Or maybe, if someone objected, they would say, "You can't tell us what to do" (kind of a free speech, anti-censorship thing) or "We like the old coach and don't think he did anything wrong, and we want to use his cheer to show support for him." Depending on their response to the objection, very different situations could arise.

But I think someone has to make that objection first, before anything can change. And, as I said before, I think the OP is actually in a good position to do so. She's a community member, but not connected to the team or the school (if I understand correctly). If she were a victim or a family member of a victim, people might (sadly) write her off as just being oversensitive or something. But as a general community member, she could very well represent a broad, general opinion among supporters of the team and the school, who find the use of the cheer tasteless and distracting, especially such a short time after the incident occurred. I think it would be worth conveying her concerns to the head coach from this perspective, and this could be done politely and without overstepping.

If nothing is done, or nothing is done that satisfies the OP, there are further steps she could take, which move the issue more into legal territory.

[TurtleDove]

I think the OP has gotten some good advice about talking to the coach or the girl's mother about the history of the chant and its potential effect on the victims. Maybe it would be proactive to have a s*xual harassment seminar with the kids as well so that they can learn why that was a wrong (and disgusting) action.

I don't see much purpose in assigning negative motives to people doing the chant. We don't know the motivations and probably never will, but going out of our way to make it a conspiracy to harass someone is going a little too far. Even the OP said she liked this chant until the coach was caught. It may be just that this is the kids' way of moving on from the incident (that is, they're not associating the chant with the coach but with the team), but not everyone is ready to do that yet.

I think I agree with your first paragraph but just wanted to clarify that the spying on and videotaping the girls in the shower was a wrong and disgusting action.  The chant itself, unless the words are somehow linked to this spying and videotaping, is neither wrong nor disgusting.  In fact, a lot of people liked it.

I absolutely agree with your second paragraph.

OP, I am confused about the whole "banned cheer" concept.  Who banned it and when and for how long before it was brought back? 

[Goosey]

I think the OP has gotten some good advice about talking to the coach or the girl's mother about the history of the chant and its potential effect on the victims. Maybe it would be proactive to have a s*xual harassment seminar with the kids as well so that they can learn why that was a wrong (and disgusting) action.

I don't see much purpose in assigning negative motives to people doing the chant. We don't know the motivations and probably never will, but going out of our way to make it a conspiracy to harass someone is going a little too far. Even the OP said she liked this chant until the coach was caught. It may be just that this is the kids' way of moving on from the incident (that is, they're not associating the chant with the coach but with the team), but not everyone is ready to do that yet.

I think I agree with your first paragraph but just wanted to clarify that the spying on and videotaping the girls in the shower was a wrong and disgusting action.  The chant itself, unless the words are somehow linked to this spying and videotaping, is neither wrong nor disgusting.  In fact, a lot of people liked it.

I absolutely agree with your second paragraph.

Yep, sorry - I was referring to the coach's actions, not the chant. I clarified in my post.

BTW - I think this kind of thing is what that thread about bashing people was about. We went from a bunch of kids chanting some catchy sports thing that has some associated bad memories for some to a bunch of bullies harassing a victim. It's a big stretch and an unnecessary one.

http://www.etiquettehell.com/smf/index.php?topic=129965.0

Sorry, this was the thread I was talking about.

[Surianne]

BTW - I think this kind of thing is what that thread about bashing people was about. We went from a bunch of kids chanting some catchy sports thing that has some associated bad memories for some to a bunch of bullies harassing a victim. It's a big stretch and an unnecessary one.

I don't know anything about the thread you're referring to, but I don't think that worrying about the victim who is still involved with the team is a big stretch here.  I do think that she is a victim here, and that the people using the chant may not intentionally be bullying her, but it's still hurting her, and it's worth considering that.  Dropping the chant would be so easy, and might make her life a little bit better, so I see it as worth it.