Author Topic: Bringing back a banned cheer  (Read 12661 times)

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Shoo

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Re: Bringing back a banned cheer
« Reply #45 on: September 17, 2013, 01:40:23 PM »
But on the other hand, I do see the slippery slope argument. I feel like the cheer could become, or perhaps already has become, something more than a cheer. Obviously, to the victim and other people (like the OP), it's a reminder of a horrible thing that happened not very long ago. But I worry that to some of the older kids who are encouraging its use, it might also become a kind of protest against what happened to the coach, since they consider what he did "no big deal." It could be used in a harassing way against the victims.

Oh, wow. This hadn't even occurred to me but makes a sick sort of sense--the possibility that the guys may be intentionally using it to harass. Yuck. Poor girl.

Wouldn't this be a strong argument for banning the cheer?

TurtleDove

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Re: Bringing back a banned cheer
« Reply #46 on: September 17, 2013, 01:45:35 PM »
But on the other hand, I do see the slippery slope argument. I feel like the cheer could become, or perhaps already has become, something more than a cheer. Obviously, to the victim and other people (like the OP), it's a reminder of a horrible thing that happened not very long ago. But I worry that to some of the older kids who are encouraging its use, it might also become a kind of protest against what happened to the coach, since they consider what he did "no big deal." It could be used in a harassing way against the victims.

Oh, wow. This hadn't even occurred to me but makes a sick sort of sense--the possibility that the guys may be intentionally using it to harass. Yuck. Poor girl.


This seems like a giant leap to me.  If the boys wanted to make things difficult for the girl this would be a really round about way of doing it, in my opinion.  Based on all we know, I think the cheer is simply catchy and people like it and are not trying to harm the girl or support the old coach. To me, this is not about the girl (or the coach) at all.

Yvaine

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Re: Bringing back a banned cheer
« Reply #47 on: September 17, 2013, 01:46:17 PM »
But on the other hand, I do see the slippery slope argument. I feel like the cheer could become, or perhaps already has become, something more than a cheer. Obviously, to the victim and other people (like the OP), it's a reminder of a horrible thing that happened not very long ago. But I worry that to some of the older kids who are encouraging its use, it might also become a kind of protest against what happened to the coach, since they consider what he did "no big deal." It could be used in a harassing way against the victims.

Oh, wow. This hadn't even occurred to me but makes a sick sort of sense--the possibility that the guys may be intentionally using it to harass. Yuck. Poor girl.

Wouldn't this be a strong argument for banning the cheer?

I'm not sure what you're driving at. Throughout the thread I've argued that the team should avoid the cheer while the victims are still on the team.

Shoo

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Re: Bringing back a banned cheer
« Reply #48 on: September 17, 2013, 02:58:48 PM »
But on the other hand, I do see the slippery slope argument. I feel like the cheer could become, or perhaps already has become, something more than a cheer. Obviously, to the victim and other people (like the OP), it's a reminder of a horrible thing that happened not very long ago. But I worry that to some of the older kids who are encouraging its use, it might also become a kind of protest against what happened to the coach, since they consider what he did "no big deal." It could be used in a harassing way against the victims.

Oh, wow. This hadn't even occurred to me but makes a sick sort of sense--the possibility that the guys may be intentionally using it to harass. Yuck. Poor girl.

Wouldn't this be a strong argument for banning the cheer?

I'm not sure what you're driving at. Throughout the thread I've argued that the team should avoid the cheer while the victims are still on the team.

Sorry, I thought you were agreeing with the slippery slope argument.

EMuir

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Re: Bringing back a banned cheer
« Reply #49 on: September 17, 2013, 03:08:07 PM »
I think that the circumstances of the cheer being brought back matter a lot.  If it was brought back as a way to bully this girl, then that's not good.  If it's a generic cheer, maybe it could be changed in some way to make it different enough to no longer "belong" to the ex-coach, but be familiar enough to boost morale?

Yvaine

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Re: Bringing back a banned cheer
« Reply #50 on: September 17, 2013, 03:09:17 PM »
But on the other hand, I do see the slippery slope argument. I feel like the cheer could become, or perhaps already has become, something more than a cheer. Obviously, to the victim and other people (like the OP), it's a reminder of a horrible thing that happened not very long ago. But I worry that to some of the older kids who are encouraging its use, it might also become a kind of protest against what happened to the coach, since they consider what he did "no big deal." It could be used in a harassing way against the victims.

Oh, wow. This hadn't even occurred to me but makes a sick sort of sense--the possibility that the guys may be intentionally using it to harass. Yuck. Poor girl.

Wouldn't this be a strong argument for banning the cheer?

I'm not sure what you're driving at. Throughout the thread I've argued that the team should avoid the cheer while the victims are still on the team.

Sorry, I thought you were agreeing with the slippery slope argument.

Well, the way I read it, Lynn2000's slippery slope argument was that it might be used to harass the victims if it continues to be used, so I guess I do agree with the slippery slope argument as presented there.

(There's a whole different slippery slope argument in this thread that has to do with banning classic works because of their creators' misbehavior. It makes it a little confusing. But basically I was agreeing with the paragraph I quoted.)

Curious Cat

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Re: Bringing back a banned cheer
« Reply #51 on: September 17, 2013, 03:13:41 PM »
But on the other hand, I do see the slippery slope argument. I feel like the cheer could become, or perhaps already has become, something more than a cheer. Obviously, to the victim and other people (like the OP), it's a reminder of a horrible thing that happened not very long ago. But I worry that to some of the older kids who are encouraging its use, it might also become a kind of protest against what happened to the coach, since they consider what he did "no big deal." It could be used in a harassing way against the victims.

Oh, wow. This hadn't even occurred to me but makes a sick sort of sense--the possibility that the guys may be intentionally using it to harass. Yuck. Poor girl.


This seems like a giant leap to me.  If the boys wanted to make things difficult for the girl this would be a really round about way of doing it, in my opinion.  Based on all we know, I think the cheer is simply catchy and people like it and are not trying to harm the girl or support the old coach. To me, this is not about the girl (or the coach) at all.

I couldn't disagree more.  If they want to make things difficult for her this is the PERFECT way to go about doing it. 

JeanFromBNA

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Re: Bringing back a banned cheer
« Reply #52 on: September 17, 2013, 03:14:49 PM »
If I were her mother, I would be furious with the school and would take this as far up as it needed to get an attitude adjustment, including pursuing this matter against the coach and the school in civil court.

Yvaine

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Re: Bringing back a banned cheer
« Reply #53 on: September 17, 2013, 03:21:36 PM »
But on the other hand, I do see the slippery slope argument. I feel like the cheer could become, or perhaps already has become, something more than a cheer. Obviously, to the victim and other people (like the OP), it's a reminder of a horrible thing that happened not very long ago. But I worry that to some of the older kids who are encouraging its use, it might also become a kind of protest against what happened to the coach, since they consider what he did "no big deal." It could be used in a harassing way against the victims.

Oh, wow. This hadn't even occurred to me but makes a sick sort of sense--the possibility that the guys may be intentionally using it to harass. Yuck. Poor girl.


This seems like a giant leap to me.  If the boys wanted to make things difficult for the girl this would be a really round about way of doing it, in my opinion.  Based on all we know, I think the cheer is simply catchy and people like it and are not trying to harm the girl or support the old coach. To me, this is not about the girl (or the coach) at all.

I couldn't disagree more.  If they want to make things difficult for her this is the PERFECT way to go about doing it.

Yup. She would know what they were doing, while they'd have plausible deniability to anyone else (But it's just so catchy!").  >:( It might also be a coincidence, but it does arouse a little suspicion that these are the same guys who are condoning the coach's offense.

Goosey

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Re: Bringing back a banned cheer
« Reply #54 on: September 17, 2013, 03:27:29 PM »
I think the OP has gotten some good advice about talking to the coach or the girl's mother about the history of the chant and its potential effect on the victims. Maybe it would be proactive to have a s*xual harassment seminar with the kids as well so that they can learn why what the coach did was a wrong (and disgusting) action.

I don't see much purpose in assigning negative motives to people doing the chant. We don't know the motivations and probably never will, but going out of our way to make it a conspiracy to harass someone is going a little too far. Even the OP said she liked this chant until the coach was caught. It may be just that this is the kids' way of moving on from the incident (that is, they're not associating the chant with the coach but with the team), but not everyone is ready to do that yet.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 03:41:03 PM by Goosey »

Lynn2000

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Re: Bringing back a banned cheer
« Reply #55 on: September 17, 2013, 03:29:53 PM »
It's a tough situation. On the one hand, people could be using the cheer in a totally innocent way, not even knowing the backstory or not connecting it to the cheer, having no clue they're upsetting anyone. Maybe they would be happy to stop using it if someone objected. Or maybe, if someone objected, they would say, "You can't tell us what to do" (kind of a free speech, anti-censorship thing) or "We like the old coach and don't think he did anything wrong, and we want to use his cheer to show support for him." Depending on their response to the objection, very different situations could arise.

But I think someone has to make that objection first, before anything can change. And, as I said before, I think the OP is actually in a good position to do so. She's a community member, but not connected to the team or the school (if I understand correctly). If she were a victim or a family member of a victim, people might (sadly) write her off as just being oversensitive or something. But as a general community member, she could very well represent a broad, general opinion among supporters of the team and the school, who find the use of the cheer tasteless and distracting, especially such a short time after the incident occurred. I think it would be worth conveying her concerns to the head coach from this perspective, and this could be done politely and without overstepping.

If nothing is done, or nothing is done that satisfies the OP, there are further steps she could take, which move the issue more into legal territory.
~Lynn2000

TurtleDove

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Re: Bringing back a banned cheer
« Reply #56 on: September 17, 2013, 03:36:55 PM »
I think the OP has gotten some good advice about talking to the coach or the girl's mother about the history of the chant and its potential effect on the victims. Maybe it would be proactive to have a s*xual harassment seminar with the kids as well so that they can learn why that was a wrong (and disgusting) action.

I don't see much purpose in assigning negative motives to people doing the chant. We don't know the motivations and probably never will, but going out of our way to make it a conspiracy to harass someone is going a little too far. Even the OP said she liked this chant until the coach was caught. It may be just that this is the kids' way of moving on from the incident (that is, they're not associating the chant with the coach but with the team), but not everyone is ready to do that yet.

I think I agree with your first paragraph but just wanted to clarify that the spying on and videotaping the girls in the shower was a wrong and disgusting action.  The chant itself, unless the words are somehow linked to this spying and videotaping, is neither wrong nor disgusting.  In fact, a lot of people liked it.

I absolutely agree with your second paragraph.

OP, I am confused about the whole "banned cheer" concept.  Who banned it and when and for how long before it was brought back? 


Goosey

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Re: Bringing back a banned cheer
« Reply #57 on: September 17, 2013, 03:38:07 PM »
I think the OP has gotten some good advice about talking to the coach or the girl's mother about the history of the chant and its potential effect on the victims. Maybe it would be proactive to have a s*xual harassment seminar with the kids as well so that they can learn why that was a wrong (and disgusting) action.

I don't see much purpose in assigning negative motives to people doing the chant. We don't know the motivations and probably never will, but going out of our way to make it a conspiracy to harass someone is going a little too far. Even the OP said she liked this chant until the coach was caught. It may be just that this is the kids' way of moving on from the incident (that is, they're not associating the chant with the coach but with the team), but not everyone is ready to do that yet.

I think I agree with your first paragraph but just wanted to clarify that the spying on and videotaping the girls in the shower was a wrong and disgusting action.  The chant itself, unless the words are somehow linked to this spying and videotaping, is neither wrong nor disgusting.  In fact, a lot of people liked it.

I absolutely agree with your second paragraph.

Yep, sorry - I was referring to the coach's actions, not the chant. I clarified in my post.

BTW - I think this kind of thing is what that thread about bashing people was about. We went from a bunch of kids chanting some catchy sports thing that has some associated bad memories for some to a bunch of bullies harassing a victim. It's a big stretch and an unnecessary one.

http://www.etiquettehell.com/smf/index.php?topic=129965.0

Sorry, this was the thread I was talking about.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 04:24:17 PM by Goosey »

Surianne

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Re: Bringing back a banned cheer
« Reply #58 on: September 17, 2013, 04:08:18 PM »
BTW - I think this kind of thing is what that thread about bashing people was about. We went from a bunch of kids chanting some catchy sports thing that has some associated bad memories for some to a bunch of bullies harassing a victim. It's a big stretch and an unnecessary one.

I don't know anything about the thread you're referring to, but I don't think that worrying about the victim who is still involved with the team is a big stretch here.  I do think that she is a victim here, and that the people using the chant may not intentionally be bullying her, but it's still hurting her, and it's worth considering that.  Dropping the chant would be so easy, and might make her life a little bit better, so I see it as worth it.

Goosey

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Re: Bringing back a banned cheer
« Reply #59 on: September 17, 2013, 04:15:29 PM »
Of course she's still the victim and it's not the concern for her that I am protesting at all. If hearing the chant makes her feel awful, it should be stopped for that reason.

It's the villainization of a bunch of kids - many of whom weren't around with Old Coach - in a completely unnecessary way that I think is just over the top, highly unlikely, and, yes, kind of mean. It's making a simple thing a very dramatic conspiracy. When you hear hoof falls, think horse, not evil zebra. Why say "Ooooo they're probably doing it maliciously! Poor victim  :(" when it's much, much more likely they just like a catchy chant. Making up some story about evil kids picking on the girl doesn't address the issue and doesn't help in any way. Makes it a better story about good vs. evil, sure. I guess that's easier to digest than it just doesn't register to these kids that someone might have a problem with the chant.