Author Topic: Bringing back a banned cheer  (Read 11586 times)

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Goosey

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Re: Bringing back a banned cheer
« Reply #60 on: September 17, 2013, 04:15:29 PM »
Of course she's still the victim and it's not the concern for her that I am protesting at all. If hearing the chant makes her feel awful, it should be stopped for that reason.

It's the villainization of a bunch of kids - many of whom weren't around with Old Coach - in a completely unnecessary way that I think is just over the top, highly unlikely, and, yes, kind of mean. It's making a simple thing a very dramatic conspiracy. When you hear hoof falls, think horse, not evil zebra. Why say "Ooooo they're probably doing it maliciously! Poor victim  :(" when it's much, much more likely they just like a catchy chant. Making up some story about evil kids picking on the girl doesn't address the issue and doesn't help in any way. Makes it a better story about good vs. evil, sure. I guess that's easier to digest than it just doesn't register to these kids that someone might have a problem with the chant. 

Yvaine

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Re: Bringing back a banned cheer
« Reply #61 on: September 17, 2013, 04:19:20 PM »
Of course she's still the victim and it's not the concern for her that I am protesting at all. If hearing the chant makes her feel awful, it should be stopped for that reason.

It's the villainization of a bunch of kids - many of whom weren't around with Old Coach - in a completely unnecessary way that I think is just over the top, highly unlikely, and, yes, kind of mean. It's making a simple thing a very dramatic conspiracy. When you hear hoof falls, think horse, not evil zebra. Why say "Ooooo they're probably doing it maliciously! Poor victim  :(" when it's much, much more likely they just like a catchy chant. Making up some story about evil kids picking on the girl doesn't address the issue and doesn't help in any way. Makes it a better story about good vs. evil, sure. I guess that's easier to digest than it just doesn't register to these kids that someone might have a problem with the chant.

You may be right. For the record, I don't think the younger kids, who just learned the chant, have done anything wrong at all. I think I was biased against the older clique of guys because of the comment about how they didn't think the crime was a "big deal." It might not be connected to why they're doing the chant, though.

Alpacas

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Re: Bringing back a banned cheer
« Reply #62 on: September 17, 2013, 04:38:19 PM »
I apologize if this questin was already answered but i didn't read all of the replies.
But did anyone ask the girl in question if she minded the use of the chant or is all of this here just based on the theory that she might still feel victimized when she hears it?

Or did someone ask the boys why they suddenly used this chant again?

shhh its me

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Re: Bringing back a banned cheer
« Reply #63 on: September 17, 2013, 04:44:49 PM »
Of course she's still the victim and it's not the concern for her that I am protesting at all. If hearing the chant makes her feel awful, it should be stopped for that reason.

It's the villainization of a bunch of kids - many of whom weren't around with Old Coach - in a completely unnecessary way that I think is just over the top, highly unlikely, and, yes, kind of mean. It's making a simple thing a very dramatic conspiracy. When you hear hoof falls, think horse, not evil zebra. Why say "Ooooo they're probably doing it maliciously! Poor victim  :(" when it's much, much more likely they just like a catchy chant. Making up some story about evil kids picking on the girl doesn't address the issue and doesn't help in any way. Makes it a better story about good vs. evil, sure. I guess that's easier to digest than it just doesn't register to these kids that someone might have a problem with the chant.

I think there is  a big difference between being mindful of the possibility the older boys teaching the chant MAY know it bothers the victims and bashing them.  It's not a wild conspiracy all it would take is one of them to dislike one the victims , notice her having  bad reaction to the cheer and deciding to use that to make her uncomfortable.  In other words what bullies all around the world do ever day. 

Some of these kids have no idea the others it may have just not occurred to or it occurred to them and they don't care or they did it maliciously and 100 nuances in between.  Being aware of the range to both extremes just mean OP can be more prepared and hopefully more polite in her discussion.

Surianne

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Re: Bringing back a banned cheer
« Reply #64 on: September 17, 2013, 04:57:10 PM »
Of course she's still the victim and it's not the concern for her that I am protesting at all. If hearing the chant makes her feel awful, it should be stopped for that reason.

It's the villainization of a bunch of kids - many of whom weren't around with Old Coach - in a completely unnecessary way that I think is just over the top, highly unlikely, and, yes, kind of mean. It's making a simple thing a very dramatic conspiracy. When you hear hoof falls, think horse, not evil zebra. Why say "Ooooo they're probably doing it maliciously! Poor victim  :(" when it's much, much more likely they just like a catchy chant. Making up some story about evil kids picking on the girl doesn't address the issue and doesn't help in any way. Makes it a better story about good vs. evil, sure. I guess that's easier to digest than it just doesn't register to these kids that someone might have a problem with the chant.

Ah, I haven't seen any villainization or conspiracy theories, so I think we're interpreting the posts in this thread very differently. 

Sharnita

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Re: Bringing back a banned cheer
« Reply #65 on: September 17, 2013, 05:06:29 PM »
But on the other hand, I do see the slippery slope argument. I feel like the cheer could become, or perhaps already has become, something more than a cheer. Obviously, to the victim and other people (like the OP), it's a reminder of a horrible thing that happened not very long ago. But I worry that to some of the older kids who are encouraging its use, it might also become a kind of protest against what happened to the coach, since they consider what he did "no big deal." It could be used in a harassing way against the victims.

Oh, wow. This hadn't even occurred to me but makes a sick sort of sense--the possibility that the guys may be intentionally using it to harass. Yuck. Poor girl.


This seems like a giant leap to me.  If the boys wanted to make things difficult for the girl this would be a really round about way of doing it, in my opinion.  Based on all we know, I think the cheer is simply catchy and people like it and are not trying to harm the girl or support the old coach. To me, this is not about the girl (or the coach) at all.

I couldn't disagree more.  If they want to make things difficult for her this is the PERFECT way to go about doing it.

I agree. There are a lot of kids who are experts in psychological torture, all the while maintaining plausible deniability. 

TurtleDove

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Re: Bringing back a banned cheer
« Reply #66 on: September 17, 2013, 05:09:45 PM »
I agree. There are a lot of kids who are experts in psychological torture, all the while maintaining plausible deniability.

Sure, but I've seen no evidence that this girl is being bullied. If the cheer were one of many instances of bullying of this girl I might be willing to label the boys teaching the cheer as horrid bullies.  But based on what I've read here it is an enjoyable cheer that a lot of people enjoyed and not necessarily linked to the old coach for a lot of people.

Curious Cat

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Re: Bringing back a banned cheer
« Reply #67 on: September 17, 2013, 05:16:46 PM »
I agree. There are a lot of kids who are experts in psychological torture, all the while maintaining plausible deniability.

Sure, but I've seen no evidence that this girl is being bullied. If the cheer were one of many instances of bullying of this girl I might be willing to label the boys teaching the cheer as horrid bullies.  But based on what I've read here it is an enjoyable cheer that a lot of people enjoyed and not necessarily linked to the old coach for a lot of people.

I don't know that you can say that based on the information given.  Until we hear more from the OP there is no way of knowing that it is enjoyable for "a lot of people" or that it is "not necessarily linked to the old coach."  Knowing teenagers I think it's much more likely that it is deliberate.

Goosey

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Re: Bringing back a banned cheer
« Reply #68 on: September 17, 2013, 06:12:12 PM »
Of course she's still the victim and it's not the concern for her that I am protesting at all. If hearing the chant makes her feel awful, it should be stopped for that reason.

It's the villainization of a bunch of kids - many of whom weren't around with Old Coach - in a completely unnecessary way that I think is just over the top, highly unlikely, and, yes, kind of mean. It's making a simple thing a very dramatic conspiracy. When you hear hoof falls, think horse, not evil zebra. Why say "Ooooo they're probably doing it maliciously! Poor victim  :(" when it's much, much more likely they just like a catchy chant. Making up some story about evil kids picking on the girl doesn't address the issue and doesn't help in any way. Makes it a better story about good vs. evil, sure. I guess that's easier to digest than it just doesn't register to these kids that someone might have a problem with the chant.

Ah, I haven't seen any villainization or conspiracy theories, so I think we're interpreting the posts in this thread very differently.

I think we must be reading two entirely different Threads

Millionaire Maria

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Re: Bringing back a banned cheer
« Reply #69 on: September 17, 2013, 06:40:25 PM »
I agree. There are a lot of kids who are experts in psychological torture, all the while maintaining plausible deniability.

Sure, but I've seen no evidence that this girl is being bullied. If the cheer were one of many instances of bullying of this girl I might be willing to label the boys teaching the cheer as horrid bullies.  But based on what I've read here it is an enjoyable cheer that a lot of people enjoyed and not necessarily linked to the old coach for a lot of people.

If there are boys on the team who think what happened to her was no big deal, and have been vocal in that opinion, to the point that the OP knows about it, I would consider that bullying.
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baglady

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Re: Bringing back a banned cheer
« Reply #70 on: September 17, 2013, 07:51:45 PM »
Of course she's still the victim and it's not the concern for her that I am protesting at all. If hearing the chant makes her feel awful, it should be stopped for that reason.

It's the villainization of a bunch of kids - many of whom weren't around with Old Coach - in a completely unnecessary way that I think is just over the top, highly unlikely, and, yes, kind of mean. It's making a simple thing a very dramatic conspiracy. When you hear hoof falls, think horse, not evil zebra. Why say "Ooooo they're probably doing it maliciously! Poor victim  :(" when it's much, much more likely they just like a catchy chant. Making up some story about evil kids picking on the girl doesn't address the issue and doesn't help in any way. Makes it a better story about good vs. evil, sure. I guess that's easier to digest than it just doesn't register to these kids that someone might have a problem with the chant.

The boys who "brought back" the cheer are not necessarily villains or acting out of malice. They might not even know it's a problem. But someone needs to tell them that it is, and why.

I went to a college whose team name was "the Indians" for years and years. When it was founded 200-plus years ago, part of its mission was to educate Native Americans. In 1974, two years before I arrived, the trustees did away with all things Indian -- the team name, songs, cheers, chants, even the name of one of the musical groups. To this day, there are alumni (I am not one of them) who are upset about that -- "It's tradition! We're honoring Indians for their bravery and nobility!" But the powers that be decided that it was offensive and demeaning and *not* in keeping with the school's mission, and that was that.

If there are people who find this cheer upsetting because of what -- and whom -- it represents, then that should be that. Those who don't like the ban are free to disagree with it, but they still need to honor it, out of respect to those who are affected.

(Let's not sidetrack this thread into a discussion of whether "Indians" and similar terms are appropriate team names/school mascots. I brought it up for illustrative purposes only.)
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Allyson

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Re: Bringing back a banned cheer
« Reply #71 on: September 18, 2013, 01:31:42 AM »
I am really not a fan of extreme oversensitivity, warning for everything that might possibly trigger someone, or totally altering one's life because of a possible issue. But in this case, it really doesn't sound like that to me. I realize that everyone's 'line' is different with this kind of thing, but...it's not like the girl is demanding something insane (well, it sounds like she's not demanding anything at all, this is entirely other people noticing her distress) like "everyone who has Bad Coach's first or last name must change it!"

It's a cheer. Why *not* just pick something else? I get the slippery slope thing, but I personally don't think one should worry about sliding down a slippery slope till 2 or 3 things have happened that seem to be 'sliding down'. This is just one thing. If one turns into two, then that's another issue. I think worrying about a slippery slope before a few things have happened is premature.

I also agree completely with everything baglady just said!

johelenc1

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Re: Bringing back a banned cheer
« Reply #72 on: September 18, 2013, 03:51:52 AM »
This makes no sense to me.  Even if there was a way to somehow ban everything this coach might have taught the squad, it's still a pretty stupid idea in my opinion.  No doubt the coach gave other advice that still carries on or helped create stunts or formations or practice ideas.  I can't understand at all how it makes sense to ban a cheer because one person made it up.  It would be like banning every play in football that Sandusky made up.

Unless the cheer names the coach, it's time to move one.  The cheer has nothing to do with the coach and as time goes on no one is going to remember he made it up.  And, that's the way it should be.

Reading through everything, I missed that one of his victims doesn't like that the cheer is being used.  I have to say though, that unless Creepy chanted the cheer while doing whatever he did, it still makes no sense to me.  If the girl is truly disturbed just by hearing this cheer, I would suggest she seek some additional counseling because the two things really have nothing to do with each other.  She may have some kind of PTSD that simply banning the cheer isn't going to address.

As for the boys...that's a whole separate issue and should be dealt with separately.  If they don't understand what Creepy did was wrong, that should be addressed.  If they are trying to make some kind of point (look at what a great guy Creepy was - he made up this super cool cheer! - which is so utterly ridiculous I don't even understand how that's possible) - then that should be dealt with.  If they are doing anything else inappropriate, then it should be dealt with.

The cheer in itself...I still say, let it go.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 04:00:20 AM by johelenc1 »

Piratelvr1121

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Re: Bringing back a banned cheer
« Reply #73 on: September 18, 2013, 07:02:05 AM »
Of course she's still the victim and it's not the concern for her that I am protesting at all. If hearing the chant makes her feel awful, it should be stopped for that reason.

It's the villainization of a bunch of kids - many of whom weren't around with Old Coach - in a completely unnecessary way that I think is just over the top, highly unlikely, and, yes, kind of mean. It's making a simple thing a very dramatic conspiracy. When you hear hoof falls, think horse, not evil zebra. Why say "Ooooo they're probably doing it maliciously! Poor victim  :(" when it's much, much more likely they just like a catchy chant. Making up some story about evil kids picking on the girl doesn't address the issue and doesn't help in any way. Makes it a better story about good vs. evil, sure. I guess that's easier to digest than it just doesn't register to these kids that someone might have a problem with the chant.

The boys who "brought back" the cheer are not necessarily villains or acting out of malice. They might not even know it's a problem. But someone needs to tell them that it is, and why.

I went to a college whose team name was "the Indians" for years and years. When it was founded 200-plus years ago, part of its mission was to educate Native Americans. In 1974, two years before I arrived, the trustees did away with all things Indian -- the team name, songs, cheers, chants, even the name of one of the musical groups. To this day, there are alumni (I am not one of them) who are upset about that -- "It's tradition! We're honoring Indians for their bravery and nobility!" But the powers that be decided that it was offensive and demeaning and *not* in keeping with the school's mission, and that was that.

If there are people who find this cheer upsetting because of what -- and whom -- it represents, then that should be that. Those who don't like the ban are free to disagree with it, but they still need to honor it, out of respect to those who are affected.

(Let's not sidetrack this thread into a discussion of whether "Indians" and similar terms are appropriate team names/school mascots. I brought it up for illustrative purposes only.)

I was thinking along those lines as I went to an elementary school (or was it middle?) which had a Native American as the mascot.  At some point they decided to change the mascot to a dragon to be less offensive. 
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Teenyweeny

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Re: Bringing back a banned cheer
« Reply #74 on: September 18, 2013, 07:56:32 AM »
Disclaimer: AFAIK, Paul McCartney has never molested anyone.

Imagine that we are in a choir. That choir sings a number of songs, one of which is 'Hey Jude'. At some point, after I join the choir, I get molested by Paul McCartney. (And I do think that the coach molested this girl, even though it sounds like he never touched her.)

I don't think anybody would fault me for not wanting to sing that song, or not wanting to be around when it's sung by my choir-mates, especially since we are meant to be a team, and part of that is looking out for everybody within that team.

It doesn't matter that 'Hey Jude' is a perfectly nice song, or that it's not about Paul McCartney, or about molestation. It's about being sensitive to a victim of molestation.